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Post by fishbelly on Sept 21, 2020 10:56:58 GMT -8
What about photo etching 0.004" nickel silver. You would have all the holes already done and the correct size. Then just need a jig or a press to make the channel bends.
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Post by talltim on Sept 21, 2020 11:07:22 GMT -8
That wire bending machine is so cool!!! Gives me a brain explosion on how to design a manual one. Of course it would not be CNC, but it would allow me to keep all my bends on the same plane. Thanks for posting that thebessemerkid. I some ways I find purely mechanically machinery like this even more amazing. One summer job I had as teen was as a cleaner in a brass fittings factory. Most of the machine were making small turned fittings from long brass stock. The machines fed the stock through, turned it, knurled it, bent it and chopped it off all through series of clever mechanisms. The 'reprogram' the machine you had to adjust all the settings with screw threads. Not as versatile as CNC, but very clever. |
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Post by talltim on Sept 21, 2020 11:16:40 GMT -8
Rapido SW1200:
Handrails, esp end rails, and cut levers are oversized. Unit ends look clunky.
I look at that page, particularly the SP model, and I wonder if the oversized railings were the smallest size the manufacturer could bend? Right idea, implementation needs tweaked. Looking at the group photo, the units with the chain across the gap in the railings seem to have thicker railings (might be an optical illusion), but the white also draws the eye. The SP unit has both and suffers for it. The Burlington loco look OK to me. On the Mopac one especially it looks like the white parts of the railing look considerably thicker, I wonder if the white paint is thicker? The cut levers on the SP unit are wierd, the ends are definately thicker than on the other locos, but hte centre section is as thin as on the others.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 21, 2020 11:41:23 GMT -8
A reminder that all four of the Rapido SW1200's pictured above are custom painted pre-production models, and not factory samples.
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Post by Mark R. on Sept 21, 2020 12:26:04 GMT -8
A reminder that all four of the Rapido SW1200's pictured above are custom painted pre-production models, and not factory samples. Correct. No doubt the white on the railings is hand painted and is probably contributing to the thickness to get them a solid white. Mark. |
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Post by Baikal on Sept 21, 2020 13:03:52 GMT -8
A reminder that all four of the Rapido SW1200's pictured above are custom painted pre-production models, and not factory samples. Correct. No doubt the white on the railings is hand painted and is probably contributing to the thickness to get them a solid white. Mark.
On the SP unit, end rails are way thicker than the side rails. Both are too thick. Prototype was 1.25" pipe + paint thickness. Drop step & MU hose bundle are thick & clunky too.
Production models might come without these issues, but these are not ok. Any photos of production models available? |
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Post by Baikal on Sept 21, 2020 13:16:06 GMT -8
Note the handrails on the end, are a thicker cross section then any of the others. 
What's with all the horizontal layers at the top of the step well / bottom of the cab?
Here's a ptototype photo of the same unit.
2277 front:
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 21, 2020 13:54:57 GMT -8
The stepwell is a separate part. Apparently so they didn't have to tool an entirely new walkway/pilot for different variations. If you look at the GTW shown previous it has a different style.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 14:04:40 GMT -8
A reminder that all four of the Rapido SW1200's pictured above are custom painted pre-production models, and not factory samples. Excellent point. I pulled up some production RS18's to see how those metal handrails turned out: Preproduction unpainted:  Production:    Prototype  Much better. I wish I had been able to see more of the loco build process when I worked in the field. Little things like handrail construction would have been interesting to watch. I would hazard a guess that they used conventional manual (hydraulic) pipe benders and matched them up to a jig, or in later years simply farmed it out to subcontractors. I remember driving through the GE plant in Erie in the early 90's and there were completed loco cabs sitting out next to one of the parking areas. Photography was a strict no-no and I was there on business so have to go by memory. Knowing how GE did business, they subbed out the bent parts of handrails then beat the supplier up for better prices every year. It's how they rolled (at least in and after the Jack Welch era. Not much fun) Anyway, yes, production models will hopefully be better. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 14:15:15 GMT -8
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Post by Baikal on Sept 21, 2020 14:16:06 GMT -8
The stepwell is a separate part. Apparently so they didn't have to tool an entirely new walkway/pilot for different variations. If you look at the GTW shown previous it has a different style.
Different variations should not justify Proto-1000-level fidelity.
Not seeing the GTW model or prototype with multiple horizontal parting & whatnot lines in the stepwells. Link please?
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 21, 2020 14:19:41 GMT -8
It's on page 2 of this thread. In CN paint.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 21, 2020 14:35:10 GMT -8
A reminder that all four of the Rapido SW1200's pictured above are custom painted pre-production models, and not factory samples. Excellent point. I pulled up some production RS18's to see how those metal handrails turned out: Production: Prototype Much better. I wish I had been able to see more of the loco build process when I worked in the field. Little things like handrail construction would have been interesting to watch. I would hazard a guess that they used conventional manual pipe benders and matched them up to a jig, or in later years simply farmed it out to subcontractors. I remember driving through the GE plant in Erie in the early 90's and there were completed loco cabs sitting out next to one of the parking areas. Photography was a strict no-no and I was there on business so have to go by memory. Knowing how GE did business, they subbed out the bent parts of handrails then beat the supplier up for better prices every year. It's how they rolled (at least in and after the Jack Welch era. Not much fun) Anyway, yes, production models will hopefully be better. The model stanchions look to be 1.5 to 2x as wide as the prototype. At least most are straight. Hood doors & grabs look good. |
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Post by Baikal on Sept 21, 2020 14:47:19 GMT -8
It's on page 2 of this thread. In CN paint. I don't see it. I do see a dark photo of a GTW/CN unit with no stepwell detail visible. Is that the one you are referring to? If not, how about a link?
Are you saying some SW1200s have a lot of horizontal parting & whatnot lines at the top of the stepwell? Because the model does.
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 21, 2020 14:53:45 GMT -8
Yes, that is the one I am referring to. Can easily see the different stepwell/fairing on my laptop.
I'm saying it has a line there as the stepwell is a separate part on the model. As is the cab (like virtually all hood unit models).
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Post by Baikal on Sept 21, 2020 15:08:00 GMT -8
Yes, that is the one I am referring to. Can easily see the different stepwell/fairing on my laptop. I'm saying it has a line there as the stepwell is a separate part on the model. As is the cab (like virtually all hood unit models). Still not seeing how poor rendition of the stepwell & cab/frame joint is justified by "different versions". I can not see it in the photo, at all.
I do see coarse SP & MP models. I guess "different versions" makes a rough model ok.
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 21, 2020 15:21:33 GMT -8
I don't recall ever saying if it was good or bad. Just the reason for the line.
Don't like it? Don't buy it.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 21, 2020 15:33:22 GMT -8
I don't recall ever saying if it was good or bad. Just the reason for the line. Don't like it? Don't buy it.
Despite your attempt to distract, I never asked why the lines were there.
Just pointing out how bad they look.
Is Rapido paying you to shill? Asking for a friend.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 21, 2020 15:39:40 GMT -8
Baikal, It would help us if your first prototype example photo was a higher resolution as the details are kinda fuzzy.  I know that Rapido occasionally uses 3D printing to test out certain parts before tooling them. Is this SP stepwell one of them? Looks like it to me. I'm kinda surprised you haven't pointed out that the inside of the SP model stepwell is painted gray but your prototype photos shows the stepwell painted red. Did this change on the real engines? If not, Rapido needs to fix that before production (again, these are hand-painted pre-production models). Now is the time to let them know (nicely) they have an error on the paint job. And yes, they do listen. When Rapido posted photos of the in-production NH FB-2 models already painted on Facebook, I immediately wrote to them and said they had put the B end numbers in the wrong place along with photos showing the correct placement. Rapido had the Chinese fix them before they left the factory, and you'd never know they did when you look at the finished models. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 16:07:59 GMT -8
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 21, 2020 16:34:15 GMT -8
I don't recall ever saying if it was good or bad. Just the reason for the line. Don't like it? Don't buy it.
Despite your attempt to distract, I never asked why the lines were there.
Just pointing out how bad they look.
Is Rapido paying you to shill? Asking for a friend.
Yes, you did. "What's with all the horizontal layers at the top of the step well / bottom of the cab? Here's a ptototype photo of the same unit. espee.railfan.net/nonindex/sw_photos/2281a_sp-sw1200-bob_dengler.jpg" You didn't like the answer so got upset. There are manufacturing limitations in making models. Also, Paul gave what may be plausible answer for the relatively poor fitment. Guess we'll see when they are released. However, when Rapido has shown pre production models with temporary printed parts they have said so. Me, a Rapido shill. That's funny right there. Just quit trying to get my goat or whatever the hell your issue is. Obviously you are still upset about being proven wrong about couplers the other day for some reason. Move on. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 18:41:31 GMT -8
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 23:01:40 GMT -8
My personal favorites are Bowser's. They look good, are durable, hold paint well, and are not warped. Not a fan of Athearns, and ScaleTrains is slightly better, but not the best. The Conductors side rail on the SD45s are shrunken so bad (all 4 I have are the same way) that they are essentially pulled out of alignment.  Not a big fan of the metal handrails either. Maybe they can be refined a bit more, but I just see them as oversized stantions and uneven bends. My only experience thus far is the Rapido SW1200RS. On a $275 loco, no less. Even the catalog photo shows wavy handrails and evidence of shrink:  www.scaletrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/RC-CNW-943_Rsoter_2144-ret-wm-scaled.jpgI'd be wanting replacement handrails. I was poking around Jeff Lemke's site (as mentioned by rs11 in another thread) and happened across a brass C&NW SD50  I'll also toss an Athearn 2017 vintage SD50 into the mix:   And finally the prototype:   Clearly we're in some no-mans land between handrails that are rugged enough to survive being handled and those which accurately reflect reality. I think metal is the answer, not only in the handrails and stanchions, but the way the entire structure handles external stress once glued or soldered together. The rigidity of the soldered OMI model with the fineness of the Athearn is where we need to be. It may be fine-scale enough that only the aftermarket can offer a solution, simply because a brass/phosphor bronze fabricated solution is more expensive than a <$1 molded set of parts. I think the Rapido railings are likely machine-bent and then snapped into the stanchionw (or the stanchion holes are oversized to let them thread on to the bent wire and make it past the corners) The all-plastic handrails need a molder and designer who are at the top of their game (to control shrinkage and other issues). The geometry of the parts makes them difficult to get right. Molded parts in the end color will never match painted parts and are translucent in many colors. I think making an all-metal fab may be better in the long run. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 23:38:47 GMT -8
I'm also hopeful that somewhere out there is a modeler who also happens to be proficient in finite element analysis software. Maybe a mechanical engineer, maybe an engineering student. Take the EMD drawings we have, shrink them down to 1/87, replace the material with the closest commercially available (thickness) phosphor bronze sheet, and model the stress and strain of someone pushing in on them, as in picking up a model. Maybe after the one stanchion is done, make an array of a dozen or so, connected by a scale size handrail (phosphor bronze or maybe some other metal if appropriate) and repeat the "push in" test. Finally mirror the array on either side of a virtual model loco with simulated weight and do the "pick-up the model from both sides" simulation. Find out where the weak spots are and beef them up. (May not pass the pick-up the model test, but at least make it as strong or tougher than the old oversized brass models, which held up pretty well) If someone is a student or has a kid in college, might be able to use a high-end program: fractory.com/finite-element-analysis-software/There are always trial programs, although the learning curve can be steep. Don't know about current freeware or cheap CAD programs with FEA capabilities. If Overland could make rugged brass handrails in the 80's without computer help, we should be able to reduce dimensions and get equivalent or even better strength. Would make a good school project. A real-world problem and challenging due to dimensional constraints. What engineering is all about. |
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Post by jonklein611 on Sept 22, 2020 4:45:53 GMT -8
I'm also hopeful that somewhere out there is a modeler who also happens to be proficient in finite element analysis software. Maybe a mechanical engineer, maybe an engineering student. Take the EMD drawings we have, shrink them down to 1/87, replace the material with the closest commercially available (thickness) phosphor bronze sheet, and model the stress and strain of someone pushing in on them, as in picking up a model. Maybe after the one stanchion is done, make an array of a dozen or so, connected by a scale size handrail (phosphor bronze or maybe some other metal if appropriate) and repeat the "push in" test. Finally mirror the array on either side of a virtual model loco with simulated weight and do the "pick-up the model from both sides" simulation. Find out where the weak spots are and beef them up. (May not pass the pick-up the model test, but at least make it as strong or tougher than the old oversized brass models, which held up pretty well) If someone is a student or has a kid in college, might be able to use a high-end program: fractory.com/finite-element-analysis-software/There are always trial programs, although the learning curve can be steep. Don't know about current freeware or cheap CAD programs with FEA capabilities. If Overland could make rugged brass handrails in the 80's without computer help, we should be able to reduce dimensions and get equivalent or even better strength. Would make a good school project. A real-world problem and challenging due to dimensional constraints. What engineering is all about. Oh if only I still had access to ANSYS... I still think you'd have an issue with plastic deformation in metal handrails. Depending on the chose metal, you'll also see work hardening and it be near impossible to straighten back out (paper clips are a perfect example) Ironically, the plastic handrails tend to stay in elastic deformation and will spring back. You're limited by the true scale diameter, and you could run basic hand deflection calcs to see what type of force is required to bend that material. I'm fairly confident most folks could apply that amount of force. Modern day models are becoming a challenge to pick up. The old tried and true "hand gantry" of grabbing the fuel tank no longer works because you bend lots of detail bits. |
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Post by TBird1958 on Sept 22, 2020 6:58:31 GMT -8
I find it interesting that both Life Like and Atlas managed to make nice, straight, durable, close to scale handrails from plastic more than 20 years ago, yet we haven't anything comparable in quality today. This one aspect of model locomotives that seems to have actually regressed. I'd be fine with bending new ones to a certain extent, but even that it made difficult due to the relative scarcity of really good accurate stanchions, at least for EMDs.   |
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Post by godzilla on Sept 22, 2020 7:45:17 GMT -8
There are some things you just can't scale down. But I thing most of our manufacturers do a pretty good job on handrails.
Dave
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rs11
Junior Member
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Post by rs11 on Sept 22, 2020 8:34:54 GMT -8
There are some things you just can't scale down. Dave
Dave is absolutely correct.
And I actually am a licensed PE, but I don't need to do any finite element analysis to tell you that some things can't scale down.
What is happening in these photos is likely that the handrails were simply hand painted on some of the samples, white paint OVER most likely sprayed on SP grey, or MP blue for example. The paint film simply got TOO THICK due to multiple layers. Sue them if you don't like it! The unpainted model shows the actual metal thickness pretty well to my eyes--and they have to be built to be HANDLED.
This is the EXACT same complaint people had 10-20 years ago with the Delrin handrails that were commonplace at the time (the threads are on the old Atlas forum). They accused Bowser and also other manufacturers (including Atlas and Kato), who ALL were using Delrin handrails (at one time) for example on the (inherited by Bowser) Stewart diesel models, of having handrails that were TOO THICK. (The handrails were primed before paint application so that paint wouldn't flake off the Delrin, then sometimes two layers of color were applied on top the primer). The final paint film got to look too thick. People complained; a few of them loudly. Bowser has completely re-tooled some inherited Stewart handrails TWICE already, to get them to better stay in the mounting holes (which were also redone), and to change the plastic away from Delrin to ABS which better holds paint and if/when broken, can more effectively be glued. They did it to achieve a more "scale looking" appearance as much as they think humanly possible without being too fragile to handle. Newsflash: when a new run is advertised there actually ARE improvements some people may not notice.
And (not directed at Dave) for Pete's sake please stop accusing people of being a paid shill. That is so low class. Most manufacturers wouldn't even have the excess cash to pay for that, seriously.
The very reason I avoid most Athearn diesels (except maybe the short length GP7/9's and 7U's whose handrail runs are too short in length to warp very much) and most ST diesels IS the handrails. They are too wavy and just don't look right at all. Imo even MTH does a better job, with their metal handrails and snap on but large stanchions, as do others.
Now people are complaining about Rapido's novel approach. Not all the molded on plastic stanchions come out 100% straight, but imo they look better than some others.
A manufacturer can't win. People don't like Delrin, which doesn't break/is nearly impossible to break (I have TRIED to break Proto 2000 RS-27 handrails--you pretty much have to cut them). People don't like the newer or now more commonly used plastics like ABS, because they will break and depending upon mold set time, have wavy issues...and now people are complaining about actual METAL handrails.
This is exactly why some manufacturers won't or don't bother to come on here any more. They feel they can't win and some folks will never be happy with a model unless they have something to complain about.
Disclaimer: I am not paid by ANY manufacturer and have not been for more than 25 years.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 22, 2020 9:05:20 GMT -8
They feel they can't win and some folks will never be happy with a model unless they have something to complain about. Yeah, SOME folks. I am always happy when there is nothing to complain about. And I am sad when there is. Ed |
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Post by fishbelly on Sept 22, 2020 9:30:45 GMT -8
No complaints here for oversized handrails to keep them straight. I cannot agree with you more that some things just do not scale well.
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