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Post by fishbelly on Sept 20, 2020 10:18:39 GMT -8
So I have a few of Atlas Yellow Box RS1's, RS3's, RS11's, C424's and C425's. Last week I purchased about 16 new shell kits for the C424's and C425's. The newer kits with the individual grab irons. I did not know Atlas also changed the handrails to be scale.
The shells arrived in a big box on Saturday. The shells, glass and grabs of course were all in excellent condition. The handrail sets on the other hand are a horror show. all mangled, twisted, some broken, wavy and just terrible. Nobody does good handrails anymore.
Thankfully though I can use the handrail sets from the yellow box units. I know they are oversized, but they look a whole world better because they stand up straight and run straight. I'll take the oversized handrail set any day over the scale spaghetti of the current non-prototypical scale handrails of today.
On a side note. Man Kato made the best models. After 25 years, these things still run like they are brand new.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 20, 2020 11:23:28 GMT -8
Nobody does good handrails anymore. That's not a true statement. I have a couple of the last run of the C-425. Handrails are fine. I wonder if your handrails were damaged because they weren't packed properly. I have a loco that was loose in a close fitting box. It got tipped over, and stayed that way for months. When I happened to find it, the handrails on the "leaning side" were bent inwards. I was able to bend them outwards, and fix it. What I'm getting at is that the handrails will "take a set" if they're bent out of position for a long time. Maybe that happened to yours. I can't see from here how your handrails were packed in the kits. They SHOULD have been carefully taped to an adequately flat surface--maybe a piece of foam. Other possibility is that you got handrails that were crap right out of the mold. That would be bad QC, to ship them. Ed |
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Post by fishbelly on Sept 20, 2020 12:47:18 GMT -8
They were assembled on the sill and packed with the shall all assemble in Atlas factory packaging.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 20, 2020 13:21:53 GMT -8
Handrails and stanchions attached to body. OK.
What WAS the Atlas factory packaging?
Ed
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Post by fishbelly on Sept 20, 2020 14:37:55 GMT -8
Plastic baggy with a card stock top with part number.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 20, 2020 15:12:38 GMT -8
Sounds like inadequate factory packaging plus inadequate shipping packaging.
Atlas should have put those handrails (carefully) between some foam sheets, and taped them together. And handled them carefully afterwards.
They probably would have been ahead selling handrails and shell separately. And packed separately.
In my opinion, they owe you. You paid for straight handrails. You didn't get them.
Ed
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Post by westerntrains on Sept 20, 2020 16:55:37 GMT -8
This is why I like MTH handrails.
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Post by ambluco on Sept 20, 2020 17:07:55 GMT -8
Sounds like you never ordered from Atlas before. I have and have never received anything .like what you propose. Sounds like inadequate factory packaging plus inadequate shipping packaging. Atlas should have put those handrails (carefully) between some foam sheets, and taped them together. And handled them carefully afterwards. They probably would have been ahead selling handrails and shell separately. And packed separately. In my opinion, they owe you. You paid for straight handrails. You didn't get them. Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 20, 2020 17:29:23 GMT -8
Sounds like you never ordered from Atlas before. I have and have never received anything .like what you propose. Sounds like inadequate factory packaging plus inadequate shipping packaging. Atlas should have put those handrails (carefully) between some foam sheets, and taped them together. And handled them carefully afterwards. They probably would have been ahead selling handrails and shell separately. And packed separately. In my opinion, they owe you. You paid for straight handrails. You didn't get them. Ed I suppose, if I had, this would be old news. But, yes, I have not. Thanks for pointing out that this is apparently widespread. That's too bad. Curiously, that's exactly how ScaleTrains packed the last handrails they sent me. I guess some manufacturers are just better at packing than others. Ed |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 20, 2020 18:56:29 GMT -8
Somewhere, in the future, some enterprising manufacturer will become the Cannon of handrails. They will hook up with some company in Asia that has a good CNC wire bender that will handle HO-scale handrail diameters, and make *perfect* handrails for every loco in existence.
The stanchions may be molded, cast or etched, and they will probably need to be tacked in place by the modeler.
Everything else will be rendered obsolete.
So say $19.95 per set per loco. How many models are out there that need better handrails? Hundreds of thousands? Millions?
Do the math. Someone will fill this void.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 20, 2020 19:23:42 GMT -8
Best handrails I have are on Atlas RS-27s. Proper diameter and very straight.
Everyone manufactrer should be able to do as well, these models are over 10 years old. Plastic, metal, as long as they're straight.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 20, 2020 19:44:36 GMT -8
Best handrails I have are on Atlas RS-27s. Proper diameter and very straight.
Everyone manufactrer should be able to do as well, these models are over 10 years old. Plastic, metal, as long as they're straight.
Proto/Walthers RS27's and yes, they were very good. Lots has to do with materials & mold cycle time. Get a designer and operator that know what they are doing and great things can happen. Unfortunately, many of the people with knowledge got "rightsized" by management chasing stock prices. Overseas is a crapshoot. Some people know what they are doing. More don't. BTDT. It's always "oh we can do that!". Quotes were dirt cheap so management loved it. Delivered product was crap, but management knew they would be on to their next company/victim so rework never happened. It was always "ship it!" Junk product should be outed, and manufacturers given a fair opportunity to make it right. After that... |
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Post by espeenut on Sept 20, 2020 19:56:15 GMT -8
I'll take the oversized handrail set any day over the scale spaghetti of the current non-prototypical scale handrails of today. On a side note. Man Kato made the best models. After 25 years, these things still run like they are brand new. ...in complete agreement with you on both statements, I really hate the flimsy, wet noodle handrails on many of the new models, and I love every one of my Kato's. They still run like the proverbial Swiss watch, the hand rails have been improved over the years and are strong and scale enough to satisfy my needs. IMHO the models details are great and all of them stand up to being used on a layout with normal handling without losing delicate parts along the right of way, anothe plus is their boxes, one of the best storage box systems made for a model locomotive... |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 20, 2020 20:58:12 GMT -8
I would like scale sized wire handrails and scale size beryllium copper stanchions.
I like my handrails straight, strong, and to scale. I think the above would do the job.
Ed
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Post by fishbelly on Sept 21, 2020 4:52:26 GMT -8
That wire bending machine is so cool!!!
Gives me a brain explosion on how to design a manual one. Of course it would not be CNC, but it would allow me to keep all my bends on the same plane.
Thanks for posting that thebessemerkid.
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 21, 2020 5:16:25 GMT -8
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 7:03:02 GMT -8
That is very cool! Link to his design: howtomechatronics.com/projects/arduino-3d-wire-bending-machine/Shrink it down and use higher precision components for HO. The straighteners are an integral part, however using something like Tichy 36" phosphor bronze stock removes that need. They'd be manually fed, of course. www.tichytraingroup.com/Shop/tabid/91/c/ho_wire/Default.aspxI'm sure Don Tichy could provide them in bulk. They're dead straight and come protected in plastic tubes. Keep the drive mechanism close to the bender to reduce scrap, although setting it up so some standard length would remain (6" or so) would make it easy to package and resell the cutoffs. This is common with metal parts. Making a unique angle bend at the end of each piece could make a good manual "cut here" indicator. This would reduce the complexity of the machine. Good for smaller custom runs. Once volume inches up go fully automated. The software code for running the steppers should scale nicely. Use his design, just reduce dimensions and sharpen up bends a bit. For adding drilled-through plastic stanchions, use very slight bends as markers at the end of the handrails, then clamp and finish the bends manually after the stanchions have been threaded on. Laser-cut or 3D printed jigs for such bends could clamp the parts to reduce distortion and make clean bends. Curved parts can be made by successive microbends. Not as smooth or quick as a continuous servo bender, but cheap. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 7:15:57 GMT -8
There's also the option if talking to some vendors about making a small "personal wire bending machine" m.alibaba.com/trade/search?SearchText=wire%20bending%20machine&from=header&&They're already not that expensive for bigger models, so shrinking it down to the sub-$2-3K range should be easy. Import a couple, sell the extras and it's paid for. Jewelry people would love something like that and they will spend a couple K for tools without blinking an eye. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 7:25:36 GMT -8
Next step would be the stanchions. Look at how the prototype stanchions are made. Can that process be miniaturized? For EMD, could a small bent sheet metal channel be cut to length, flattened at the end and rolled into a curve? Or could the parts be stamped and then bent up on the sides and rolled on the ends? This stuff was done very frequently in industry (medical equipment come to mind) but the entry tooling costs weren't cheap. When you're selling machines that are $$$$ or selling millions of implants, tooling costs were readily amortized. Still how stuff was done was important and may be able to be duplicated. I'm thinking precision microstamping is the answer for stanchions: www.lyons.com/capabilities/precision-metal-stampings/Stamp em out by the bucketload, bend up the sides, have two holes that the end user pins and glues into the model (two to keep them vertical, then bend and crimp or glue the top on the wire-bent handrail. www.lyons.com/capabilities/precision-metal-stampings/ Bending the stamping into a channel gives great structural rigidity from a thin (even scale-thickness?) part. The backside support could be fabricated a number of ways. Does anyone happen to know the thickness of the sheet metal used to make protoype stanchions? Maybe 3/16"? (Which would scale to .002155" in HO, hence the need for the bending for rigidity). On the plus side, brass (BeCu, or whatever metal) sheet/strip in that thickness would be easy to bend up the sides in a progressive jig. Die could be easily made from even aluminum, although it's a straight cut so steel wouldn't be tough. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 7:51:46 GMT -8
The two end holes and dimensional accuracy are what make microstamping a good choice. The end holes can double as preciwion locating pins during the side bend forming process and start of the top curve (that will be completed by the modeler when they wrap that over the handrail. All that would be done ideally on the model.
An etched drilling jig for putting holes in the sideframe wpuld make sense. If adopted, like Kadee is for couplers, those locating holes would be molded in.
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Post by Mark R. on Sept 21, 2020 9:05:01 GMT -8
FWIW - Rapido's latest motive power have all metal railings, so it's obviously do-able.
Mark.
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Post by NS4122 on Sept 21, 2020 9:19:17 GMT -8
Also FWIW it was do-able 14 years ago on Tower 55 GEVO's. FWIW - Rapido's latest motive power have all metal railings, so it's obviously do-able. Mark. |
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Post by 12bridge on Sept 21, 2020 9:28:58 GMT -8
My personal favorites are Bowser's. They look good, are durable, hold paint well, and are not warped. Not a fan of Athearns, and ScaleTrains is slightly better, but not the best. The Conductors side rail on the SD45s are shrunken so bad (all 4 I have are the same way) that they are essentially pulled out of alignment.  Not a big fan of the metal handrails either. Maybe they can be refined a bit more, but I just see them as oversized stantions and uneven bends. My only experience thus far is the Rapido SW1200RS. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 9:42:40 GMT -8
My personal favorites are Bowser's. They look good, are durable, hold paint well, and are not warped. Not a fan of Athearns, and ScaleTrains is slightly better, but not the best. The Conductors side rail on the SD45s are shrunken so bad (all 4 I have are the same way) that they are essentially pulled out of alignment. Not a big fan of the metal handrails either. Maybe they can be refined a bit more, but I just see them as oversized stantions and uneven bends. My only experience thus far is the Rapido SW1200RS. On a $275 loco, no less. Even the catalog photo shows wavy handrails and evidence of shrink: www.scaletrains.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/RC-CNW-943_Rsoter_2144-ret-wm-scaled.jpgI'd be wanting replacement handrails. |
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Post by 12bridge on Sept 21, 2020 9:45:33 GMT -8
I am still waiting over a month for a response about missing parts on my undecorateds, so I dont hold much hope for handrails. Ill be calling them after I get my SD40-2 undecs when they show up this week, as with my luck, I am sure they will be missing parts also.
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ADK
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by ADK on Sept 21, 2020 9:46:03 GMT -8
...Does anyone happen to know the thickness of the sheet metal used to make prototype stanchions? Maybe 3/16"? (Which would scale to .002155" in HO, hence the need for the bending for rigidity). On the plus side, brass (BeCu, or whatever metal) sheet/strip in that thickness would be easy to bend up the sides in a progressive jig. Die could be easily made from even aluminum, although it's a straight cut so steel wouldn't be tough. The thickness is 1/4". I used to have a CAD model of a scale handrail but seem to have lost it recently. I will make a new CAD model, and can share it with whoever wants it. ETA: somebody posted a link to the EMD handrails a while back. I printed off the sheets and had checked against several EMD locos.   |
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Post by Baikal on Sept 21, 2020 10:04:40 GMT -8
Rapido SW1200:
Handrails, esp end rails, and cut levers are oversized. Unit ends look clunky.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 10:06:14 GMT -8
...Does anyone happen to know the thickness of the sheet metal used to make prototype stanchions? Maybe 3/16"? (Which would scale to .002155" in HO, hence the need for the bending for rigidity). On the plus side, brass (BeCu, or whatever metal) sheet/strip in that thickness would be easy to bend up the sides in a progressive jig. Die could be easily made from even aluminum, although it's a straight cut so steel wouldn't be tough. The thickness is 1/4". I used to have a CAD model of a scale handrail but seem to have lost it recently. I will make a new CAD model, and can share it with whoever wants it. Thanks! So that would be .00287 in HO. Somebody probably stocks 0.003" phosphor bronze sheet. Quick search showed 0.005" sheet here: www.mscdirect.com/product/details/32008310Stainless shim stock in 0.003" is readily available: www.grainger.com/mobile/product/2NZX7The thinner would be easier to bend & form in a jig. Work hardening plus the formation of a channel stock would contribute to stiffness. Ultimately would require bonding by some means to the handrail to achieve decent structural rigidity. ETA: the 4" starting width before forming scales to .046" so another option is finding or ord ering custome strip stock in that width. Of course that sheet stock is thin enough that a low power fiber laser might be able to be more cost-effective than strip stock or punched sheet stock. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 21, 2020 10:11:14 GMT -8
Rapido SW1200:
Handrails, esp end rails, and cut levers are oversized. Unit ends look clunky.
I look at that page, particularly the SP model, and I wonder if the oversized railings were the smallest size the manufacturer could bend? Right idea, implementation needs tweaked. |
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Post by 12bridge on Sept 21, 2020 10:31:28 GMT -8
Note the handrails on the end, are a thicker cross section then any of the others.   |
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