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Post by fr8kar on Sept 22, 2020 9:44:46 GMT -8
Complaining is a positive thing.
Finding fault with a model might lead many to complain. It might lead a few to try to solve the problem. And if we're lucky, one of those solutions not only works, but it is introduced by a manufacturer. When the solution is successful and is widely adopted by other manufacturers there is no more reason to complain about that problem unless there's room to improve, and then the cycle repeats again.
Without complaints there'd be no narrow hoods and beautiful Blombergs and silky smooth Kato drives. There'd be no road-specific details or LED headlights or Cannon & Company fans. No Highliners. No see-through grilles. No Tsunami2 sound decoders.
I'm glad Rapido is innovating with their handrail design. It's a long-standing problem in this hobby and Rapido appears to have solved it as well as anyone. But there's room for improvement. And certainly for others to follow suit unless they can build a better mousetrap. So far, Rapido's solution looks the best to me.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 22, 2020 10:30:23 GMT -8
I find it interesting that both Life Like and Atlas managed to make nice, straight, durable, close to scale handrails from plastic more than 20 years ago, yet we haven't anything comparable in quality today. This one aspect of model locomotives that seems to have actually regressed. I'd be fine with bending new ones to a certain extent, but even that it made difficult due to the relative scarcity of really good accurate stanchions, at least for EMDs.   I'd wager they had more experienced designers and better mold operators. Beautiful work, btw. |
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Post by mlwlover on Sept 22, 2020 10:33:45 GMT -8
i really wished that smokey valley still produced handrail stanchions, they are a little oversized but are sturdy and straight.
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Post by lvrr325 on Sept 22, 2020 10:53:47 GMT -8
Life Like didn't get all the handrails right. If you look at first run SW9/1200s the hood rail is usually warped from expanding, almost always in the same spot towards the cab end. But it's a straight handrail and not hard to replace with wire.
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Post by fishbelly on Sept 22, 2020 10:54:31 GMT -8
i really wished that smokey valley still produced handrail stanchions, they are a little oversized but are sturdy and straight. And that is ONLY because you take the time to clean them up and straighten them. I had a WHOLE bunch of them and sold them all off. Lots of bubble blobs and bent stanchions. All cleanupable and easy enough to straighten. Modeling is a passion and time consuming. The results are what you want to put into it. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 22, 2020 10:55:47 GMT -8
There are some things you just can't scale down. Dave
Dave is absolutely correct.
And I actually am a licensed PE, but I don't need to do any finite element analysis to tell you that some things can't scale down.
What is happening in these photos is likely that the handrails were simply hand painted on some of the samples, white paint OVER most likely sprayed on SP grey, or MP blue for example. The paint film simply got TOO THICK due to multiple layers. Sue them if you don't like it! The unpainted model shows the actual metal thickness pretty well to my eyes--and they have to be built to be HANDLED.
This is the EXACT same complaint people had 10-20 years ago with the Delrin handrails that were commonplace at the time (the threads are on the old Atlas forum). They accused Bowser and also other manufacturers (including Atlas and Kato), who ALL were using Delrin handrails (at one time) for example on the (inherited by Bowser) Stewart diesel models, of having handrails that were TOO THICK. (The handrails were primed before paint application so that paint wouldn't flake off the Delrin, then sometimes two layers of color were applied on top the primer). The final paint film got to look too thick. People complained; a few of them loudly. Bowser has completely re-tooled some inherited Stewart handrails TWICE already, to get them to better stay in the mounting holes (which were also redone), and to change the plastic away from Delrin to ABS which better holds paint and if/when broken, can more effectively be glued. They did it to achieve a more "scale looking" appearance as much as they think humanly possible without being too fragile to handle. Newsflash: when a new run is advertised there actually ARE improvements some people may not notice.
And (not directed at Dave) for Pete's sake please stop accusing people of being a paid shill. That is so low class. Most manufacturers wouldn't even have the excess cash to pay for that, seriously.
The very reason I avoid most Athearn diesels (except maybe the short length GP7/9's and 7U's whose handrail runs are too short in length to warp very much) and most ST diesels IS the handrails. They are too wavy and just don't look right at all. Imo even MTH does a better job, with their metal handrails and snap on but large stanchions, as do others.
Now people are complaining about Rapido's novel approach. Not all the molded on plastic stanchions come out 100% straight, but imo they look better than some others.
A manufacturer can't win. People don't like Delrin, which doesn't break/is nearly impossible to break (I have TRIED to break Proto 2000 RS-27 handrails--you pretty much have to cut them). People don't like the newer or now more commonly used plastics like ABS, because they will break and depending upon mold set time, have wavy issues...and now people are complaining about actual METAL handrails.
This is exactly why some manufacturers won't or don't bother to come on here any more. They feel they can't win and some folks will never be happy with a model unless they have something to complain about.
Disclaimer: I am not paid by ANY manufacturer and have not been for more than 25 years.
I spent a good portion of my 40 year engineering career stuck in meetings with people who would say "can't". Models have been continuously improved by innovators unwilling to accept the status quo. Yes, it's challengjng. Nobody promised that engineering would be easy. Some of us relished that challenge. Many of us live for it. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 22, 2020 11:01:16 GMT -8
I should add one of my great fortunes was to work in several, widely disparate fields over my engineering career. Things I saw in one field were often unknown in others. Had I stayed with my first employers I never would have been exposed to so many different practices and techniques. Cross-pollination between fields was a glorious thing. The continuous learning never stopped. Served me (and my clients) very well.
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Post by TBird1958 on Sept 22, 2020 11:34:34 GMT -8
i really wished that smokey valley still produced handrail stanchions, they are a little oversized but are sturdy and straight. Some of them were copied directly from PFM's set. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Sept 22, 2020 14:12:48 GMT -8
Complaining can be a good thing but it has to be constructive.
I co-op'd in college at a large, international 100-year-old company in their engineering department. I got to sit as a 20-year-old kid in a few design meetings and actually was asked to make suggestions to these senior engineers with decades of experience. When one of my ideas was rejected, at no point did any of my co-workers call my idea "stupid", they didn't publicly call for me to be fired for making a mistake, and they did not say that I obviously didn't care about quality (all of which has happened here). My co-workers were all professional in their criticism of my ideas, and I took that to heart and came back with better ones. At no point did I receive the kind of negative feedback one can get on this forum.
By all means be critical; it's how we get better. But don't be a jerk about it (is that too much to ask?).
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 22, 2020 14:20:35 GMT -8
Speaking of handrails, here is something Fr8kar designed up and got rejected by Shapeways. Not durable enough for handrails, but interesting.  It is flexible, but can't guarantee it will hold up in regular layout use. He calls it an EOCC air hose. They are seen on lots of cars with cushion drawbars. |
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Post by nsfantodd on Sept 22, 2020 16:31:10 GMT -8
I need many of these!
I have lobbied several manufacturers for these with no luck.
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Post by westerntrains on Sept 22, 2020 16:40:59 GMT -8
care to guess how many pages this will grow to?
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Post by Christian on Sept 22, 2020 16:43:47 GMT -8
care to guess how many pages this will grow to? It depends on how quickly the Rapido Bashing starts. |
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sp3205
Junior Member
Posts: 93 
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Post by sp3205 on Sept 22, 2020 16:46:33 GMT -8
i really wished that smokey valley still produced handrail stanchions, they are a little oversized but are sturdy and straight. Some of them were copied directly from PFM's set. I don't think that is true. The PFM/PIA stanchions were designed specifically to fit the Athearn SD40-2, the masters were made by Gordon Cannon. One the features they have that is lacking on any Smokey Valley version is the extra bit of flange and bolt heads on those stanchions that had them. Smokey Valley provided that detail as a separate styrene part. The advantage was greater flexibility, the disadvantage is that the detail was a bit heavy. I've probably used somewhere in the neighborhood of 30 PFM/PIA sets over the years, and will confess that on some models, I haven't always closed hewed to the spacing of the "bolted" vs "unbolted" stanchions, in part because there are more of the latter on most EMDs, and the PIA sprue apportions them more equally.
I hate bending handrails, but not as much as I hate most Delrin ones. The railings on DRGW 3002 look great, on 3059 the short stanchions are showing the infamous plastic handrail lean. I have two finished locomotives with Delrin/Celcon/whatever it is: a pair of Athearn SD45T-2s. I bought them as undecorated, the railings still on the sprue. They sat that way for years. They were grit blasted, and when applied, have stayed straight and held paint fine. I've measured them, they are scale in all directions. But I'd still prefer slightly over scale metal stanchions, and continue to use the PIA ones (they are still available, BTW). At one time Keith Hapes at Plano was experimenting with etched stanchions, the KV Models one are a good start, but noticeably shallow in profile. I just finished a UP SD40-2 that started as a Scale Trains Southern unit. Because the handrails are grey against a yellow backdrop, it provides a good model to assess how much the to-thick profile of the PIA stanchions detracts from their appearance. I'm happy with them. If someone reinvents the wheel and makes it rounder, I'd be happy to jump on that bandwagon.
Elizabeth
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 22, 2020 17:03:10 GMT -8
I need many of these! I have lobbied several manufacturers for these with no luck. I don't know if they could even be made with a mold as they curve around in multiple planes. Ryan said I could put them up for sale so they should be on the site soon. I do want to try some other resin mixes. They are flexible but can't be bent over like a rubber hose. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 22, 2020 17:16:50 GMT -8
care to guess how many pages this will grow to? I don't care. Do you? Ed |
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rs11
Junior Member
Posts: 71 
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Post by rs11 on Sept 22, 2020 20:08:39 GMT -8
I should add one of my great fortunes was to work in several, widely disparate fields over my engineering career. Things I saw in one field were often unknown in others. Had I stayed with my first employers I never would have been exposed to so many different practices and techniques. Cross-pollination between fields was a glorious thing. The continuous learning never stopped. Served me (and my clients) very well. I'm not arguing with you there. Continuous learning...sure thing...but also there is the law of diminishing returns. You can make so many improvements relatively "easily" for "reasonable" amounts of money--but then the successive improvements become more challenging to engineer, more time consuming and more costly. We may be getting there with HO handrails, short of people rolling their own. |
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Sept 23, 2020 2:02:42 GMT -8
Note the handrails on the end, are a thicker cross section then any of the others.   To me it looks like the end railings are a plastic part. The coupler levers maybe too. |
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 23, 2020 2:05:01 GMT -8
Note the handrails on the end, are a thicker cross section then any of the others. To me it looks like the end railings are a plastic part. The coupler levers maybe too. My thought as well. Those cut levers look thick. Doesn't Rapido use molded grabs or have they changed? |
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Post by westerntrains on Sept 23, 2020 5:18:50 GMT -8
care to guess how many pages this will grow to? I don't care. Do you? Ed No, but it's interesting to speculate. |
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Post by jonklein611 on Sept 23, 2020 7:37:21 GMT -8
I should add one of my great fortunes was to work in several, widely disparate fields over my engineering career. Things I saw in one field were often unknown in others. Had I stayed with my first employers I never would have been exposed to so many different practices and techniques. Cross-pollination between fields was a glorious thing. The continuous learning never stopped. Served me (and my clients) very well. I'm not arguing with you there. Continuous learning...sure thing...but also there is the law of diminishing returns. You can make so many improvements relatively "easily" for "reasonable" amounts of money--but then the successive improvements become more challenging to engineer, more time consuming and more costly. We may be getting there with HO handrails, short of people rolling their own. Skunkworks follows that logic quite well. The last 20% costs way more than the first 80%. There's obviously a balancing act to what's in included and what makes a profitable model.  |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 23, 2020 7:38:55 GMT -8
No, but it's interesting to speculate. I did not know that. What might be fun is to start this concept as a separate topic, and then see how many pages THAT one ran. Further comment: I do wonder if this new topic would go LONGER than this here one. It would start out with the best of intentions, trying to come up with a decent number. But then there'd be discussion about how the various numbers were chosen. And no doubt someone would bring in "bashers". Which would likely bring up a new term: "counter-basher". Or perhaps "anti-basher" (antiba?). I can definitely see things going long, here. Ed |
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Post by cannon on Sept 23, 2020 7:58:15 GMT -8
i really wished that smokey valley still produced handrail stanchions, they are a little oversized but are sturdy and straight. Some of them were copied directly from PFM's set. Liz Allen posted correctly that the PFM stanchion masters were made by Gordon Cannon. It is my understanding that the original Smokey Valley masters were made by Kelly Morris and produced by Larry Jackman who was Smokey Valley. Larry had independent tool maker Joel Berling make a mold for the little plastic part that represented the clamp. Over time parts used as masters instead relying on a master set of sub masters has allowed size differences due to shrinkage at each generation. As an aside Joel Berling also made a lot of tooling for a lot of companies before his passing in 2006 not long after Gordon’s passing. The industry lost two very skilled toolmakers in a short time. Dave Hussey |
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Post by TBird1958 on Sept 23, 2020 8:40:53 GMT -8
Some of them were copied directly from PFM's set. Liz Allen posted correctly that the PFM stanchion masters were made by Gordon Cannon. It is my understanding that the original Smokey Valley masters were made by Kelly Morris and produced by Larry Jackman who was Smokey Valley. Larry had independent tool maker Joel Berling make a mold for the little plastic part that represented the clamp. Over time parts used as masters instead relying on a master set of sub masters has allowed size differences due to shrinkage at each generation. As an aside Joel Berling also made a lot of tooling for a lot of companies before his passing in 2006 not long after Gordon’s passing. The industry lost two very skilled toolmakers in a short time. Dave Hussey Dave, When I was with Hundman Publishing I recall Bob going on one morning about how some of Smokey Valley's stanchions had the same casting flaws as comparable PFM ones, this was him comparing them under magnification. IIRC Jeff Keoller saw this as well as myself. |
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Post by nsfantodd on Sept 23, 2020 8:54:41 GMT -8
I need many of these! I have lobbied several manufacturers for these with no luck. I don't know if they could even be made with a mold as they curve around in multiple planes. Yeah, that was the problem try make an injection molded part. I though of making the in two or three segments, but printing them takes care of the problem! |
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Post by westerntrains on Sept 23, 2020 17:15:59 GMT -8
What I don't get is there seems to be a demand for this but the supplers seem to have vanished.
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