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Post by Donnell Wells on Jan 31, 2021 21:34:35 GMT -8
Well, when you look at the way the MTH GP35 was assembled, the chassis doesn't look like much thought went into it. Take a look here: MTH GP35 on MRH
Donnell
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Post by jonklein611 on Feb 1, 2021 5:21:12 GMT -8
Looking forward to a re-run of the N&W and NS passenger cars. My J class needs more cars to pull!
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Post by rails4dmv on Feb 1, 2021 7:16:30 GMT -8
I really wanted to grab the MTH D&H & EL streamline sets when they came out, but decided against it because the cars didn't appear to be the correct length. I hope that can get corrected before a possible second release.
I have 1 set of MTH R17 subway cars which are nice. If they put ESU decoders in the next production run, I'll definitely grab a few more sets. My only suggestions for ScaleTrains is that they remove the blanked out windows in the power cars that MTH for some reason decided was a good ideal. I also second the request earlier in this thread and hope for ST to consider doing more subway car sets, possibly IRT R36 "World's Fair Cars"
But I will sell my soul if they announced HO Scale R32, R40 slants or R68's.
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Post by slowfreight on Feb 1, 2021 7:28:04 GMT -8
But I will sell my soul if they announced HO Scale R32, R40 slants or R68's. We really need some B Division attention. I had to dig really, really deep to model the R68s, and I think there is definitely room in the market for an updated model. Still trying to find a decoder that will fit.
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Post by middledivision on Feb 1, 2021 9:02:46 GMT -8
Well, when you look at the way the MTH GP35 was assembled, the chassis doesn't look like much thought went into it. Take a look here: MTH GP35 on MRH
Donnell Exactly. If we lose out on a ST Rivet Counter GP35/30 because of this, that's a damn shame.
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Post by middledivision on Feb 1, 2021 9:06:20 GMT -8
I see this as ST not doing a knock out GP35 since they have the MTH now. I don't know that the tooling can be improved enough to be rivet counter quality. That's what I am saying. MTH diesels all seem to be lacking, I think steam and the passenger cars with ST guts are going to be solid. I wouldn't be happy with a GP35, or GP30 or GP40, for that matter, that isn't Rivet Counter level. So I do hope you are wrong about the GP35. There are enough so-so models of all three I mention and we don't need more warmed over. I agree, MTH diesels all seem lacking. Their best efforts are the Gevos and Dash 9's and they pale in comparison to ST and Genesis. I still believe ST only wanted the steam but MTH made them buy the entire HO line because who else would?
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Post by riogrande on Feb 1, 2021 10:01:51 GMT -8
[Their best efforts are the Gevos and Dash 9's and they pale in comparison to ST and Genesis. I still believe ST only wanted the steam but MTH made them buy the entire HO line because who else would? That makes sense since the diesel line isn't up to ST standards. Steam makes more sense although ST main gig so far has been modernish stuff and some late 60's through 80's stuff secondary, and tertiary big blow.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 1, 2021 10:24:56 GMT -8
I'm not sure how you get from ScaleTrains buying MTH to a really nice GP35 being dead. Either ScaleTrains can upgrade the MTH tooling to Rivet Counter (in which case you have what you want), or they can't which means the market is still wide open. After all, its not like the existence of a Bachmann GP35 killed the chances. Not to mention that somebody else may already be past the point of no return on a GP35 anyway, or may see an opportunity to grab a market while ScaleTrains is buy digesting the MTH purchase - because about the only thing that can be said with confidence is that ScaleTrains is going to struggle slightly as they attempt to double or more in size overnight (finding more space, hiring more staff, evaluating and otherwise dealing with all that new tooling is going to be difficult until the process is finished). Or for that matter when ScaleTrains has scaled up to their new size (and I trust that they will succeed) maybe the additional revenue/cash flow means they create the dream GP35 model if the MTH tooling is found to be wanting.
I see this as ST not doing a knock out GP35 since they have the MTH now. I don't know that the tooling can be improved enough to be rivet counter quality. That's what I am saying. MTH diesels all seem to be lacking, I think steam and the passenger cars with ST guts are going to be solid.
Why would a set of sub-standard tooling prevent them from tooling a Rivet Counter GP35?
At the end of the day what would matter is if there is a market for a Rivet Counter GP35, and that potential market remains unchanged with the existing MTH tooling changing ownership.
And if that market exists (and I believe it does) if ScaleTrains decides not to tool it then someone else will - so the real question for ScaleTrains (assuming they were interested before the MTH deal in doing a Rivet Counter GP35) is whether they are willing to see someone else take that market.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 1, 2021 10:28:40 GMT -8
And if that market exists (and I believe it does) if ScaleTrains decides not to tool it then someone else will - so the real question for ScaleTrains (assuming they were interested before the MTH deal in doing a Rivet Counter GP35) is whether they are willing to see someone else take that market. I believe there is market for a rivet counter GP30/GP35/GP40. However, my concern is all this new acquisition will draw ST attention and resources away from offering them, assuming they are under consideration.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 1, 2021 10:53:38 GMT -8
And if that market exists (and I believe it does) if ScaleTrains decides not to tool it then someone else will - so the real question for ScaleTrains (assuming they were interested before the MTH deal in doing a Rivet Counter GP35) is whether they are willing to see someone else take that market. I believe there is market for a rivet counter GP30/GP35/GP40. However, my concern is all this new acquisition will draw ST attention and resources away from offering them, assuming they are under consideration.
That is a valid concern, not just for those models but all the product ScaleTrains has planned - until they get staffed up the existing employees are going to very busy.
But that is different than saying a Rivet Counter GP35 won't happen because ScaleTrains now has the MTH GP35 and thus won't even consider a Rivet Counter GP35
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Post by elfan on Feb 1, 2021 11:04:03 GMT -8
And if that market exists (and I believe it does) if ScaleTrains decides not to tool it then someone else will - so the real question for ScaleTrains (assuming they were interested before the MTH deal in doing a Rivet Counter GP35) is whether they are willing to see someone else take that market. I believe there is market for a rivet counter GP30/GP35/GP40. However, my concern is all this new acquisition will draw ST attention and resources away from offering them, assuming they are under consideration. Just pondering...if ST was willing to finance and produce a SDL39, with its limited market, why would they look askance at a GP35 with quality above what is currently available, with its far greater market? Personally speaking,I haven’t bought a GP35 since the Kato offering, mainly because I haven’t seen a model sufficiently advanced to do so. If ST released one at the quality level they have put forth to date, I would definitely be in line for a few. I’ll wager I’m not alone. Tom
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Post by TBird1958 on Feb 1, 2021 11:15:36 GMT -8
I believe there is market for a rivet counter GP30/GP35/GP40. However, my concern is all this new acquisition will draw ST attention and resources away from offering them, assuming they are under consideration. Just pondering...if ST was willing to finance and produce a SDL39, with its limited market, why would they look askance at a GP35 with quality above what is currently available, with its far greater market? Personally speaking,I haven’t bought a GP35 since the Kato offering, mainly because I haven’t seen a model sufficiently advanced to do so. If ST released one at the quality level they have put forth to date, I would definitely be in line for a few. I’ll wager I’m not alone. Tom You do have to wonder, while it's great to see this engine produced, the market for it is pretty limited in comparison to what a good early Geep (GP20,30,35,40) would generate in terms of sales considering the available road names. It causes me to think that while it's still expensive to create die work, it must not be as expensive as we're often lead to believe.
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Post by unittrain on Feb 1, 2021 11:19:10 GMT -8
If ST can risk doing a rivet counter sdl39 a rivet counter gp30 35 or 40 would be a no brainer as the appeal in the market is far greater.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 1, 2021 11:47:26 GMT -8
For BN, anyway, besides the various GP 30's, 35's, and 40's that could be done (174), there's also the GP39M/E/V's--160 of them. Many/most of which seem to be still around.
With the predecessor roads, that spans over 55 years of modeling!
Ed
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Post by Donnell Wells on Feb 1, 2021 11:53:34 GMT -8
Some of you seem to be forgetting that the MTH steam catalog is the real gem in this whole acquisition. All of those MTH locomotives (which BTW really only need new motors and electronics) will end up paying for many, many other ScaleTrains-produced diesels, some potentially more obscure than the SDL39! And don't forget all of the other items that are currently available that will also generate revenues, of which some will be reinvested into producing newer products. So, I wouldn't worry too much about the GP35s and 38s and 40s...in fact, have you considered that they may already be in the pipeline?
Speculation will drive you crazy, but patience is a virtue!
Donnell
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Post by lars on Feb 1, 2021 12:29:48 GMT -8
Some of you seem to be forgetting that the MTH steam catalog is the real gem in this whole acquisition. All of those MTH locomotives (which BTW really only need new motors and electronics) will end up paying for many, many other ScaleTrains-produced diesels, some potentially more obscure than the SDL39! It's time for the Conrail modelers to inundate the board with C32-8 requests. Put me down for a pair in Ballast Express gray.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 1, 2021 12:36:50 GMT -8
True Donnell. The steam catalog seems to be the biggest catch. This should be good news for that crowd.
I do hope the GP30/35/40's are in the pipeline. When they come, it's gonna hurt!
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Post by railmodeltroy14 on Feb 1, 2021 13:11:06 GMT -8
N & W J Class #611 with proper set of matching passenger cars.
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Post by lars on Feb 1, 2021 13:12:29 GMT -8
If Ahtearn has half a brain they'll listen to all the requests for GP38s and 40s and get something done. The 38/40 seems second only to switcher requests for new or updated tooling. If ST beats them to the punch, it's their loss.
Considering that they share a common platform, you think whoever goes through the work to make a GP30 will also do a 35.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 1, 2021 13:21:55 GMT -8
TBird1958: "You do have to wonder, while it's great to see this engine produced, the market for it is pretty limited in comparison to what a good early Geep (GP20,30,35,40) would generate in terms of sales considering the available road names. It causes me to think that while it's still expensive to create die work, it must not be as expensive as we're often lead to believe."
and
unittrain: "If ST can risk doing a rivet counter sdl39 a rivet counter gp30 35 or 40 would be a no brainer as the appeal in the market is far greater."
So, second point first.
ScaleTrains is *not* doing a Rivet Counter SDL39 - they are doing a Museum Quality SDL39.
This is an important distinction because the Museum Quality increases the odds someone will buy it for collector reasons, but also because it makes a big difference on price and hence revenue.
Let's compare the ScaleTrains SDL39 with the Rapido E8 and the Athearn SD70ACU
DC and then DCC/Sound (brackets being the ScaleTrains "price" vs their list price, Athearn and Rapido list)
SDL39 - $325 ($260) - $440 ($350) E8 - $230 - $340 SD70ACU - $250 - $340
So the SDL39 is approximately $100 (retail) more expensive, and that helps to make up for lower sales volume.
Also, in the (I think) James Wright video ScaleTrains notes that they will probably only do 2 runs of the SDL39 and then the tooling will be shelved for an extended period given the more limited market vs how they approach the ES44 or SD40-2.
So to the first point, unless you think the manufacturers are lying to us then the tooling is as expensive as indicated. In their August 27th 2020 Q&A ScaleTrains indicated that tooling a new loco is a multi-6-figure investment.
The reason the SDL39 is viable (or, ScaleTrains thinks it is) is both the above mentioned higher price and the fact that as ScaleTrains gets established and brings on revenue from 2nd/3rd/etc runs of existing tooling they can (like any manufacturer in that position) take a bigger risk of a new model say only just breaking even - note that Athearn makes this point in their Q&A's a lot recently, that the sales of the foobies and the fake paint schemes help fund all the new tooling/upgraded tooling we want.
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Post by middledivision on Feb 1, 2021 14:20:21 GMT -8
I was skeptical when the UP Turbines came out but they have done quite well for ST. Just shows that the SD40-2 and Gevos are cash cows that they can milk for a long time.
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Post by gmpullman on Feb 1, 2021 14:28:03 GMT -8
We’re MTH’s ore cars and 60’ flat decent to good? I only picked up some MTH flats cause they were mislabeled as intermountain. The MTH ore "Jennys" are superb HO models IMHO: BLE_ore by Edmund, on Flickr MTH product line seems to cover a broad spectrum of quality levels and "prototype accuracy". I have quite a few MTH passenger cars, both heavyweight and lightweight. The ones I have are excellent quality and on a par, if not better in some ways, to anything from Rapido or Walthers Proto. Their heavyweight PRR "Queen Mary" is an excellent model and very accurate to the original. She lived on through the Penn Central era and was a frequent visitor to the Army-Navy games. Their heavyweight line really needs to be expanded. No diners, combines and only one example of a Pullman. Their lighting is excellent with keep alive built in to the light board. Scale Trains would do well to make these available as a separate product line! More photos here >>>> MTH Heavyweight Photos
PRR_Parlor-obs2 by Edmund, on Flickr [edit] One more comment, I hope S-T doesn't follow the MTH model of only making certain passenger cars available as "sets". I'd really like to get the PULLMAN-lettered Mount Baxter observation car but I would have to buy it in a set including four other cars I already have. The Mount Baxter is still alive, converted into a solarium lounge, in Cleveland, Oh. Thank you, Ed
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Post by riogrande on Feb 1, 2021 15:24:17 GMT -8
Those ore jenny's do look nice. I wonder if they were ever done in UP? D&RGW hauled some ore cars in the 70's IIRC. Seen photo's of some in Pueblo CO.
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 1, 2021 16:30:16 GMT -8
Those GP35s, the last run MTH did, you could not give away. My source had some on closeout for a good discount and I looked on ebay and I would have lost money even at the discount price. Which was well under $100. Several roadnames that usually sell well, too.
To be fair, the last run of Kato were not much better sellers, I had somebody change their mind on a pre-order and I think I just broke even after fees. I can still get engines from that run. And I don't know what all is wrong with them other than fairly thick handrails compared to everyone else. Dated tooling yes but they also were somewhat cheaper than everyone else. One roadname choice was kind of a dud (NYC late black).
I don't think they can sell these in the volume MTH did out of their own house. MTH was sold through normal distribution channels. it takes a lot of volume to #1 repay the investment in the tooling and #2 then go on to pay for anything else. I'm sure there's some gems in this line that will sell well, but other stuff... well I wish them luck, I guess.
FWIW, if they discount their own "list" price then the discount price is the full retail price, the rest is just nonsense they made up. They're just throwing out puffery as a psychological trick to make you think you're getting a better deal. That was another thing about scaletrains I never cared for, that obvious BS-ing on their prices. If you had to pay the full price to get it from them, then someone else selling it for less is actually giving you a discounted price. For instance a Rapido DC-only E8 at $230 list will sell at that price from them, but because they distribute you will be able to buy them elsewhere for less - I'd guess $199.99 but there's more room if someone wants to be really cutthroat. Athearn is the same thing, although they have their own network they distribute to, they leave it up to their retailers to sell for a lower price if they choose. But when you buy from the actual manufacturer, whatever price you pay them is the price. You're not getting a discount, unless the item does not sell well and they have to mark it down to move it.
I don't know what the sales numbers are or how they compare to when Athearn, Atlas etc does a run of an engine, but I do know the percentage someone like me might make selling it they're getting every dime of and then some, so unless the runs are small they should be in much better shape to offer new tooling and more obscure models.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 1, 2021 16:52:03 GMT -8
Haters gonna hate. And hate some more. It's past getting old now.
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Post by mdvle on Feb 1, 2021 17:15:09 GMT -8
I don't think they can sell these in the volume MTH did out of their own house. MTH was sold through normal distribution channels. it takes a lot of volume to #1 repay the investment in the tooling and #2 then go on to pay for anything else. I'm sure there's some gems in this line that will sell well, but other stuff... well I wish them luck, I guess.
Yes, we all know you hate ScaleTrains.
As part of the announcement ScaleTrains said they will be expanding their dealer network, likely later this year (right there in the 6th paragraph of the first post).
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Post by cemr5396 on Feb 1, 2021 20:13:23 GMT -8
As part of the announcement ScaleTrains said they will be expanding their dealer network, likely later this year (right there in the 6th paragraph of the first post).
That's the part of the whole weekend's news I'm most intrigued by. I couldn't care less about the MTH stuff to be honest. If they play their cards right, this could be a big benefit to both themselves and the hobby as a whole, and they just might win over some people (like myself, I'll admit it) who have not been big fans of theirs in the past. On the other hand, I'm still of the opinion that Athearn at their best is better than Scaletrains at theirs, so I'm very much taking a 'wait and see' approach. Even if ST products become more easily available, if they aren't better than the alternative I don't see my buying habits changing much if at all.
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Feb 1, 2021 22:29:26 GMT -8
If ScaleTrains retools all the MTH stuff to be on par with their current products in the Rivet Counter Line then I'll be on board, If they leave the MTH stuff AS IS then NO THANKS !!! Hope they haven't bit off more than they can chew.
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Post by Donnell Wells on Feb 1, 2021 23:18:15 GMT -8
That's the part of the whole weekend's news I'm most intrigued by. I couldn't care less about the MTH stuff to be honest. If they play their cards right, this could be a big benefit to both themselves and the hobby as a whole, and they just might win over some people (like myself, I'll admit it) who have not been big fans of theirs in the past. On the other hand, I'm still of the opinion that Athearn at their best is better than Scaletrains at theirs, so I'm very much taking a 'wait and see' approach. Even if ST products become more easily available, if they aren't better than the alternative I don't see my buying habits changing much if at all. Yeah....that's not really a fair assessment, 5 years (ST) compared to 75 years (ATH)? On the other hand, it took Athearn 55 years to get to the Genesis line and 15 more to get to G2.0, but ScaleTrains started out the gate with Meseum Quality! Further, playing one's cards right could apply to any and every manufacturer, so no distinction there. What I don't understand is (and this is rhetorical) how some of you assume that they don't have the knowledge and/or experience and expertise to enhance the ex-MTH tooling. I think they have more-than-proved their capabilities. In fact, now they can and will go head-to-head with all of the Athearn steam: BigBoy to BigBoy, Challenger to Challenger, MT-4 to GS-6 (both SP, and deskirted with skyline casing), USRA Light Mikado to USRA Light Mikado (Athearn; currently out of production).
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Post by lvrr325 on Feb 2, 2021 0:13:58 GMT -8
Haters gonna hate. And hate some more. It's past getting old now. Yes, we all know you hate ScaleTrains. As part of the announcement ScaleTrains said they will be expanding their dealer network, likely later this year (right there in the 6th paragraph of the first post).
it amazes me people love this company so much they can't even rationally discuss them; apparently they're Model Railroad Gods and do no wrong. Not sure why it's hard to understand - the price the company who makes it sells it at, is the retail price. Anything they say about some other higher price is nonsense, because no one, anywhere, is selling at that price. Everyone else's "list" price, if they sell direct as Rapido or Atlas does, or even Tangent or Molocco, they sell it at that price. The SDL39 prices make it more than obvious how phony they are; "museum quality" or not, $325/$440 is beyond absurd, while $260/$350 is about in line with the high end of the market presuming there's about $50 of additional detail to justify it. That, will have to be seen when the model shows up. Personally I don't enjoy being lied to, but if you're into that hey there's no accounting for taste. Some people like paying full price for things, too. I wish I knew who they were, I'd sell them anything they wanted. As to "expanding their dealer network" I don't read their posts, not interested really in what they do. However, to equal the sales MTH was managing would require a huge expansion, something a small, relatively new company is probably not in the position to do, or do well. Even long established companies find it much easier to use the existing supply chain, and it's easier for the retailer to have accounts with just a handful of places rather than dozens. Some companies sell to several wholesalers, some like Athearn have their own wholesale arm, but Horizon was well established prior to buying them. I actually wouldn't be shocked to see them dump a few re-runs of former MTH product into normal channels just to recoup some of their investment faster. It's the same thing they did with that Kit Classics clone of the Atlas double plug door boxcar. They get it out there and get some attention out of it too. it's clear some of the MTH stuff isn't complete crap and will sell fairly well in a short time. Plus if something is a market dud, like those GP35s I mentioned, it doesn't matter, they already got their money for them and it's on the wholesaler to figure out how to make them attractive to someone. If they do choose this, though, it will be interesting to see if they then turn around and sell it below their list themselves while expecting dealers to buy based on the list price (again). Bottom line for me though is it doesn't affect me much, I never sold the MTH either, could have, passed on it, had no one request it. Recall a fair amount of criticism of it on this board - remember those DCC operated couplers? I think there were issues with getting parts, but everyone is that way now. And it kind of went away quite some time ago so it was a moot point. I expect it to remain moot.
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