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Post by curtmc on May 14, 2012 12:54:05 GMT -8
Have to agree with Donnell and Jim and others... At $170-230 for a 4-car set (instead of per car) they would be at a price point considered appropriate by more people.
Those Athearn RTR passenger trains with F59PH and 3 commuter cars for $250 MSRP look a lot more appropriately priced.
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garr
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Post by garr on May 14, 2012 13:36:03 GMT -8
My LHS said Walnuts sent out a dealer email staitng this is the 2012 name train. Dave That is official then. We were speculating on what the train would be recently and a few of us thought the City of New Orleans might be the new train this year. Maybe next year! Larry If this is the case, this will be the first Walthers name train that I will not purchase at least one car from. However if they eventually produce Amfleet I or II's, I will participate. I still believe a nice modernized heavyweight observation platformed business car or two or three would have been a better option. That would appeal to a broader audience of modelers as it would provide an opportunity for a business car train from the '60s to present day layouts. Jay |
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Post by calzephyr on May 14, 2012 14:32:15 GMT -8
Paul - Help may be on the way shortly. I just emailed David Harrison a link to this topic.  However, if he does not respond, maybe this link will help you out. Jim Do you know if David will be coming on this forum? He was on the Atlas one at lot and I was hoping he would come over here also. I viewed the museum layout at Chicago a few years ago and it was simply amazing to say the least! Larry |
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Post by nw611 on May 14, 2012 14:47:46 GMT -8
Jim, looking at David Harrison's NEC layout and at the Model Memories web site, you'll have to recgnize that overhead catenary is not something you would like to have on your layout. David is using curved wires on curves (Marklin or Vollmer ?) that is not realistic. Model Memories' wires have a 0.025" diameter which means over 2 inches in real diameter. I visited what is considered the largest and most detailed layout in the world, Miniatur Wunderland in Hamburg (Germany), an investment of 2 million Euros (2.5 million US$), and even there catenary was a disappointment. They run a 10-12 hours a day schedule and are forced to keep the pantographs down if they don't want to stop their trains every 5 minutes to fix the catenary.
Believe me, steam and diesel are much better than electric. I've been modeling Italian, German, Austrian and Swiss railways for 23 years and over 50% of my locomotives are electric but I'd like to go back to 1989 when I was modeling CSX, NS and predecessors. Ciao. R. Galiano
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Post by antoniofp45 on May 14, 2012 15:18:16 GMT -8
Antonio, You said, "...it doesn't make much sense to have a 4 to 6 car train of powered passenger units on a layout." What about Budd RDC's? I have a string of 4 of these on my layout, and the NH and B&M ran solid RDC consists a long longer than that. Paul, good to see that you're here. I have 11 1970s era HO Bachmann Metros. 9 have the single truck/motor unit and two have the single motor/driveshaft set up with metal pantographs. All are poor runners but I'm "slowly" hopping them up. I've scrapped 3 of the units and have been using the shells as ALCLAD Test beds (I'm one of the volunteer testers).  My view, perhaps misguided, is that multiple passenger cars that are powered are redundant and a waste of powerpack or DCC Controller energy, even if each motor is as efficient as a Kato unit. My plan has been to repower just one of my Metros and keep the rest of the units as dummies. The dummies wold be equipped with interior lighting, with one of them receiving functional headlights/Gyra light. I have a pair of P1K RDC units and will say that they are very fine running units as they can easily crawl at about 2mph, but do agree that their top speed is quite slow. As always, I keep an open mind. I've been hoping for years that someone would produce a Metro, but opinion is still that: Walthers should consider offering the units in the SS scheme/red stripes/white cab with the Pennsy Keystone herald and PC Worm herald decals to let customers decide which version they want. BTW: For prototype modelers, the PC version would be correct running coupled with Amtrak schemed units. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2012 15:37:35 GMT -8
Walthers should consider offering the units in the SS scheme/red stripes/white cab with the Pennsy Keystone herald and PC Worm herald decals to let customers decide which version they want. Since the original silver painted Super Chief was rolled out by Walthers in 200?, the company has been vilified for having the end user install the grabs and decal names and or numbers on the cars. When Walthers rolled out the Union Pacific City of Everywhere in 2009, Walthers STILL bought a kick in the pants for having the end user decal the names and the numbers. So if you are Walthers why do you want to offer decals and get fried like green tomatoes?  I know Walthers isn't stupid, they've been in business for over 75 years. They may have an excellent reason for NOT offering the Penn Central at this time. Maybe their marketing department said "Penn Central doesn't sell well" or "lets get three schemes out now and see how things sell or offer the PC and later Amtrak at a later date. |
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Post by antoniofp45 on May 14, 2012 19:09:04 GMT -8
Since the original silver painted Super Chief was rolled out by Walthers in 200?, the company has been vilified for having the end user install the grabs and decal names and or numbers on the cars. When Walthers rolled out the Union Pacific City of Everywhere in 2009, Walthers STILL bought a kick in the pants for having the end user decal the names and the numbers. So if you are Walthers why do you want to offer decals and get fried like green tomatoes? I know Walthers isn't stupid, they've been in business for over 75 years. They may have an excellent reason for NOT offering the Penn Central at this time. Maybe their marketing department said "Penn Central doesn't sell well" or "lets get three schemes out now and see how things sell or offer the PC and later Amtrak at a later date. Hello Jim, Glad to see you here as well. I have to admit that your post made me realize that I am now part of the "older" generation as 50 looms not too far away for me. For those of us over 35, installing decals or additional decals on "brand new" railroad related models was the "norm" for years and not considered a big deal as a good number of us always had: Microset, Microsol, and a few tools on standby. I enjoyed adding the finishing touches to my units. I still don't think that installing 6 decals on a Budd shell is a big deal, but I am reminded that to some others it could very well be. Especially if the mindset of "Hey! I paid all this money, this thing should be able to fetch me the newspaper!" is set in place. I think it was not too long ago that manufacturers started offering weathered models to appeal to modelers that were afraid of ruining the models. (Good grief, what's happened to us?!) Point well taken, Jim. |
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Post by carrman on May 21, 2012 18:39:25 GMT -8
My pusher tells me only 350 sets will be made.
Dave
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Post by antoniofp45 on May 21, 2012 18:43:19 GMT -8
Carrman,
Is that 350 sets total, including the special edition Pennsy version? Did he tell you if Walthers plans a 2nd run?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2012 4:40:21 GMT -8
Carrman, Is that 350 sets total, including the special edition Pennsy version? Did he tell you if Walthers plans a 2nd run? The DELUXE PRR version is the one limited to 350 sets. The other cars will be built to order. |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Dec 22, 2013 20:55:50 GMT -8
Even as the release time of these units moves closer I'm still disappointed that Walthers chose not to offer these units in Penn Central's scheme which is the railroad that started them in revenue service until Amtrak eventually took over them. As mentioned on other threads, a number of Metros soldiered on under the Amtrak flag still wearing Penn Central worms as late as 1983 But of course, Walthers reps are likely hanging on to the cliche' that "Penn Central doesn't sell"....  Just don't tell that to Penn Central or 1970s-era northeastern modelers. It's too bad these won't be available "Undecorated" as they would be a very fun Alclad project.   |
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Post by curtmc on Dec 22, 2013 21:53:21 GMT -8
Actually, I hear that Walthers is planning to email all 15 of them...  |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Dec 23, 2013 6:18:57 GMT -8
Curt.......right on cue. Always ready to enjoy pouring vinegar in a response, just like on the old Atlas forum. Actually, I hear that Walthers is planning to email all 15 of them... |
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Post by peoriaman on Dec 23, 2013 6:32:22 GMT -8
But of course, Walthers reps are likely hanging on to the cliche' that "Penn Central doesn't sell".... That's probably based on their sales of PC steam engine decals, what, 40+ years ago? |
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Post by antoniofp45 on Dec 23, 2013 7:05:12 GMT -8
Hello Peoriaman.
Talk to reps from Athearn and Bowser. PC rolling stock and locomotives have been selling decently for the past decade. Although not primary, one of the contributing factors being that a good number of northeastern modelers that were kids or young adults back in the PC/Conrail era are now in the 40 and 50-something age categories and are spending their hobby dollars on PC and Conrail equipment.
Out of curiosity I've searched the web and various forums and was amazed at how many PC modelers are showing off their heavily weathered PC rolling stock, locomotives, and passenger equipment.
No doubt the prototype PC was a disaster. Nevertheless it's an integral part of US railroad history and I think it's neat to see that 1970s-80s modelers have picked up on that and have been including PC equipment in their fleets.
But to my original thought..............
Walthers is offering the "Pennsy" version. The primary difference between the prototype Pennsy and PC schemes on the Metros are the Keystone and Worm heralds, respectively (just a few small decals).
If Walthers produced the stainless Metros with the red stripes, white cab outline MINUS those heralds, but instead include the herald decals in the set........then modelers, right off the bat, would have a choice of creating a Pennsy version, Penn Central version, or a mix of both within the 4-car set!
Imho, that could generate even more sales.
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Post by trebor on Dec 23, 2013 7:19:58 GMT -8
Curt.......right on cue. Always ready to enjoy pouring vinegar in a response, just like on the old Atlas forum. Actually, I hear that Walthers is planning to email all 15 of them... Well thats 15 people who have better taste in paint schemes and logos than CHEESIE fans!    Walthers doesn't seem to do PC engines. Atlas has done some as well as Athearn. Many PC models often seem to be a strained effort. Wrong lettering, iffy paint color etc. PC is difficult though as there were so many variations and prototype butcher shop chop jobs. Also if there are 5 PRR/PC fans there are 500 opinions on black/brunswick shading. I'm planning on 6 Amsquish early units, and if PC are done I'm in for 4. How about the PRRkeystone lettered first few?$$$$$ BTW keep a patched up GG1 around to pull the "modern tech" crap in to Philly so your Cheesesteak doesn't get cold. |
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Post by atsfan on Dec 23, 2013 11:19:07 GMT -8
Actually, I hear that Walthers is planning to email all 15 of them... In the spirit of Penn Central, email is way too modern. They mailed them a notice via the USPS. And half of the letters are lost, sitting on a siding in Rochester...................  The above is meant as humor fellas........... |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2013 13:07:23 GMT -8
But to my original thought..............
Walthers is offering the "Pennsy" version. The primary difference between the prototype Pennsy and PC schemes on the Metros are the Keystone and Worm heralds, respectively (just a few small decals).
If Walthers produced the stainless Metros with the red stripes, white cab outline MINUS those heralds, but instead include the herald decals in the set........then modelers, right off the bat, would have a choice of creating a Pennsy version, Penn Central version, or a mix of both within the 4-car set!
Imho, that could generate even more sales.
It's a great idea about the decals, it would work for me. But, people have been grinding their gears for years over having to letter and number Walthers passenger cars. So even though the decals, would kill two birds with one stone, I have a feeling Walthers would still not make the majority happy. Atlas supposedly stopped making the unnumbered locomotive models because of poor sales. People by enlarge want to take the train out of the box and place on the track. Back on the old Atlas forum, a few years ago, there was an outbreak of teeth gnashing about having to put the detail parts and handrails on some new Kato release. In many respects the hobby has become somewhat lazy. There is a reason rolling stock kits, except for undecorated, have become things of the past. Don't get me started about undecorated and Athearn and Walthers view on that subject. Why couldn't Walthers offer the Metroliner and the upcoming Amfleet cars in undecorated? If they can only produce 350 of some limited edition paint scheme it would seem logical that they could squeak out a few undecorated. Hey maybe I would want to paint a Metroliner set in solid PC green with white lettering or letter or do a set up lettered for Conrail. Walthers could at least do up a sku and open undecorated up for reservations. If they only get a few, reservations then cancel the project. People would understand. But to not offer undecorated at all is not giving people a chance. |
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Post by railthunder on Dec 23, 2013 14:13:36 GMT -8
I would think three sets of decals in the PRR version would be appropriate. In addition to the Keystone and PC Worm, Amtrak's restencilled ones had a white stencil with the Arrow over the PC emblem also. I'm suprised there weren't a limited number of undecs done also. Walthers clearly has some unique PC opportunity with the NYC 20th Century and PRR Broadway Limited cars to do some neat stuff.
Happy Railroading!
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Post by roadkill on Dec 23, 2013 17:05:58 GMT -8
Actually, I hear that Walthers is planning to email all 15 of them... In the spirit of Penn Central, email is way too modern. They mailed them a notice via the USPS. And half of the letters are lost, sitting on a siding in Rochester................... The above is meant as humor fellas........... That was just mean... and I'll have you know that those letters are sitting on a siding in Crestline...  |
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Post by trebor on Dec 23, 2013 20:09:32 GMT -8
Ah ….as long as they are lost sitting in FLEXI-VAN'S!!!!!!!
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Post by antoniofp45 on Dec 24, 2013 10:26:30 GMT -8
Thought I'd share this. I was asked in an email by a modeler why could I just not purchase Amtrak units, strip and refinish them? I just can't see spending $169 each, msrp (or even a discounted price of $155 each) and then for each unit: 1. Completely disassemble the body, including fine and likely breakable details. 2. Paint strip a beautifully finished shell. 3. Re-apply a stainless steel appearance. 4. Cab roof and sides would have to be painted white. 5. The ultra thin rubber strips around the front door and engineer's window painted black. Tedious, even with a #000 paint brush. 6. The sides would still need the red stripes. Who makes those decals? No one. To me it's not worth the amount of work involved. Add to that, I still have a pile of Walthers cars awaiting their turn with the alcohol tub and airbrush. As mentioned, the 4 car "Deluxe" Pennsy set would be a much better option for those of us that want Penn Central units. Very little work would be involved. From what I can see, this would require: 1. Removing the Keystone decals on the sides and replacing them with the worms. 2. On the front ends, a PC "worm" decal would be installed underneath the engineer's window, while the Keystone decal is removed from the fireman's side. 3. If there is any damage to the finish after the Keystone decal was removed, that small section could easily be wet-sanded, masked off and "Alcladded". However, the catch is that the 4-car Pennsy set will be selling at between $1100-$1200. Good grief!  I can't believe that it cost Walthers a lot more to produce the Pennsy versions than the Amtrak units. I'm assuming that by designating them as "Deluxe" and producing them in very limited quantities, the Pennsy sets will quickly sell out and Walthers should recoup its investment quite nicely. Good for Walthers, but it isn't an ideal scenario for "Modeler John or Jane" who can't spend $1000+ for that set, myself included. If the Pennsy sets and Amtrak units sell well, hopefully Walthers will consider producing a PC version OR, more Pennsy units and sell them as individual units instead of 4-car sets.  |
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mlrr
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Post by mlrr on Dec 24, 2013 10:47:22 GMT -8
Tony,
I recall speaking with one modeler who mentioned that the plated finish is not affected by the alcohol bath. In order to remove that, one would need to use a mixture that included vinegar (from what I can remember).
As far as the paint application goes, perhaps re-application of the metal finish won't be an issue.
With that said, I agree with your points about the cost of the model that would essentially have to be re-built anyway.
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Post by trebor on Dec 24, 2013 14:54:16 GMT -8
Gotta go with Antonio, stripping a new issue top of the line plastic model ain't in the cards. Perhaps the existence of the die will cause a release of the "less desirable" schemes. I'd like the PC metro as well as the entire "1958" faded grey update of the 20th Century. i can't see why Walthers won't eat crow on that and pony up a new release of the later perceived or actual coloring.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Dec 25, 2013 7:54:58 GMT -8
MLRR, thanks for that info. It's likely the plated finish is sealed with a micro-thin clear coating. Trebor, best move for those of us interested is to let Walthers know, via email or phone. BTW: Something that I had forgotten to mention, which can be a source of laughter or annoyance when heard. The prototype 2-chime Leslie S2M horn often over-blew and squealed badly on the Metros! Since deferred maintenance was often the norm back in the late 60s-early 70s, Penn Central and Amtrak didn't place high priority on tuning horns unless they failed completely. Ironically commuter railroads like the LIRR, which also used the S2M on their equipment, generally took good care of their horns. Here's what a "typical" Metro horn sounded like back then. The modeler dubbed it into this video featuring his Bachmann Metros: Definitely a 10 on the "yuck" factor!  Here's what the horn is supposed to sound like (which is, hopefully, the version used on the Walthers units):
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Post by alcoc430 on Dec 25, 2013 12:29:12 GMT -8
According to the Walther's website The PRR Scheme no longer has the reserve button and IIRC its been that way for some time, all the Amtrak schemes looked to be able to order. So the only way you are going to get the PRR scheme is to hope some dealers out there ordered more than preorder. So with 350 units produced with a retail value of almost $420,000, plus according to my pusher, he can't discount the proto line the same as other Walther's lines because of the poorer dealer discount. So Walthers is getting more than the normal 50% of the retail value. However, It remains to be seen how popular the Amtrak version is.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Dec 26, 2013 12:12:23 GMT -8
Thanks for that update, Alcoc430 Hopefully by the reserve option being taken down this may be a good sign that the units sold out and Walthers might consider producing the pre-Amtrak version again inspite of the "one time production" statement in the ad. I realize I'm coming across as frustrated. I'd been hoping for a decent Metroliner for years and had been modifying Bachmann Metroliners to achieve that goal. However, I became turned off after metalizng a few shells and kept thinking that something was buggng me. After looking at prototype photos I saw vividly that the Alclad metalizier made the "too tightly spaced" (and incorrect) corrugated fluting pattern stand out even more as you can see here on one of my experiments:  The spacing between the flutes on the prototype Metroliners (and Amfleet units) is wider than what was tooled on the Bachmann version. This was the primary reason why I stopped working on the Bachmann shells. Silver paint often hides mistakes well (whether caused by the manufacturer or the modeler), however, Alclad tends to REVEAL them. I was pleasantly surprised when the announcement for the new Walthers units was made. Then I find out that the "easy to modify" version I'm willing to purchase will only be offered in a "Deluxe" set with a wallet pounding price listing. But as mentioned, model manufacturers first priority is to be profitable so apparently Walthers "brass" felt that this was the best course to take. I can understand, somewhat, the reasons Walthers may have made in this scenario..........but as a customer I'm still disappointed.
According to the Walther's website The PRR Scheme no longer has the reserve button and IIRC its been that way for some time, all the Amtrak schemes looked to be able to order. So the only way you are going to get the PRR scheme is to hope some dealers out there ordered more than preorder. So with 350 units produced with a retail value of almost $420,000, plus according to my pusher, he can't discount the proto line the same as other Walther's lines because of the poorer dealer discount. So Walthers is getting more than the normal 50% of the retail value. However, It remains to be seen how popular the Amtrak version is. |
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Post by markfj on Dec 26, 2013 13:50:37 GMT -8
Antonio, you certainly are a master of Alclad metalizer! Even though your Bachmann shell may be molded inaccurately, that finish is incredible. If you were to continue with the project, I’m wondering if using Kato’s new self-contained power trucks would be an option for replacing the Bachmann drive.
I’ve been following this thread and am somewhat disappointed that Walthers made the PRR units a “limited” edition low-production offering. Maybe their rational is that more customers are familiar with the Amtrak scheme than any other road and those models will have higher sales volume because of that assumption. Also, I think the whole limited edition offering of the PRR models is just a trick to get more money. I know that is somewhat obvious, but as a PRR fan, it’s frustrating because I don’t have the money and I was really looking forward to this release. So, how many more people like me “would” buy those models “if” Walthers made them as readily available as the Amtrak scheme?
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Post by peoriaman on Dec 26, 2013 13:55:00 GMT -8
Even as the release time of these units moves closer I'm still disappointed that Walthers chose not to offer these units in Penn Central's scheme... Is there any reason to think they won't release the PC version in a later run? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 15:49:15 GMT -8
Even as the release time of these units moves closer I'm still disappointed that Walthers chose not to offer these units in Penn Central's scheme... Is there any reason to think they won't release the PC version in a later run? There may be a solution. Why not buy some Amtrak versions, especially if they get deep discounted and decal them for Penn Central? In this photo you can clearly see where PC shop forces were very dainty about removing the Keystone. Must have used a Dremel tool.....  Microscale set number 87-1383 has the red pinstripe decals and the necessary worms.  |
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I can't believe that it cost Walthers a lot more to produce the Pennsy versions than the Amtrak units. I'm assuming that by designating them as "Deluxe" and producing them in very limited quantities, the Pennsy sets will quickly sell out and Walthers should recoup its investment quite nicely. Good for Walthers, but it isn't an ideal scenario for "Modeler John or Jane" who can't spend $1000+ for that set, myself included.
