Walthers NEW Metroliner!!!!!!!

[Deleted]

Dec 24, 2013 10:26:30 GMT -8 antoniofp45 said:

6. The sides would still need the red stripes. Who makes those decals? No one.

Microscale makes Penn Central Metroliner decals complete with red pencil stripes!

[antoniofp45]

Babalooey Jim,

1. Please read my response on page 3 why stripping an Amtrak version might not be feasible.

2. Thank you very much for posting the decal info. This will be very good for the modelers that want to hop up their Bachmann Metros. Had these decals been available 3 years ago, I would have likely continued upgrading my Bachmann units.

3. Jim you have good eye for detail so you'll understand this:

I know that it may seem trivial to some modelers, but the fluting pattern on the "Bachs" bothers me because of how it looks under Alclad. On the prototype (when clean of course) the flat SS sections between the raised flutes reflect natural lighting BRILLIANTLY and even the depth is mirror-like as on this prototype photo:



On the Bachs, the raised flutes are too thick and as a result the "flat" sections are non-existent. So when metalized, you're looking at a cluster of raised body lines with about a 1/2 millimeter gap in between them. Again, notice that absence of the "mirror effect" from the fluting of this Bachmann shell. The sunlight is blotched. With accurate fluting, at this photo angle, the sunlight should appear unfiltered and blinding.



So you can imagine my reaction when I compared my shell to a prototype Amfleet unit (which has the same fluting pattern as a Metro). To me, it's those flat sections on the prototypes that make the bodies stand out as far as stainless steel sheen. My compliments to Walthers for accurately capturing the fluted pattern.



I realize that I'm talking about 1970s tooling technology and that Bachmann used the typical fluted pattern that was used on their other 1970s HO streamliners (along with Tyco, Model Power, and Life Like).

MarkFJ,

Thank you for the kind compliment. I agree that, if adaptable, a quality truck motor like the Kato version would work well for those of us that want to repower the Bachs. The old Bachmann powered truck motors, after disassembling and weathering, make good scrap parts for a junkyard scene, lol!


Peoriaman,

I have no idea if Walthers would consider producing a Penn Central version. My thinking or guess is that the molds/tooling used by Walthers and Rapido today are much more solid and durable than that of a decade ago. But inspite of this, I doubt Walthers will "crank out" more Metros unless the current units sell well. But my guess is that if a good number of customers hammer Walthers with requests, we might eventually see a Penn Central version. It'd be a matter of producing the Pennsy units again except with worm heralds on them, and perhaps, different numbers.

[Deleted]

Dec 27, 2013 8:34:44 GMT -8 antoniofp45 said:

Babalooey Jim,

1. Please read my response on page 3 why stripping an Amtrak version might not be feasible.

2. Thank you very much for posting the decal info. This will be very good for the modelers that want to hop up their Bachmann Metros. Had these decals been available 3 years ago, I would have likely continued upgrading my Bachmann units.

3. Jim you have good eye for detail so you'll understand this:

I know that it may seem trivial to some modelers, but the fluting pattern on the "Bachs" bothers me because of how it looks under Alclad. On the prototype (when clean of course) the flat SS sections between the raised flutes reflect natural lighting BRILLIANTLY and even the depth is mirror-like as on this prototype photo:



On the Bachs, the raised flutes are too thick and as a result the "flat" sections are non-existent. So when metalized, you're looking at a cluster of raised body lines with about a 1/2 millimeter gap in between them. Again, notice that you don't see the "mirror effect" on this Bachmann shell that you do on the Riv and Walthers Budd units I've Alcladded. There's no flat paneling:



So you can imagine my reaction when I compared my shell to a prototype Amfleet unit (which has the same fluting pattern as a Metro). To me, it's those flat sections on the prototypes that make the bodies stand out as far as stainless steel sheen. I have to give complements to Walthers for accurately capturing the fluting pattern.



I realize that I'm talking about 1970s tooling technology and that Bachmann used the typical fluted pattern that was used on their other 1970s HO streamliners (along with Tyco, Model Power, and Life Like).

MarkFJ,

Thank you for the kind compliment. I agree that a quality truck motor would work well for those of us that want to repower the Bachs. After disassembling and weathering the old Bachmann powered truck motors make good scrap parts for a junkyard scene, lol!


Peoriaman,

I have no idea if Walthers would consider producing a Penn Central version. My thinking or guess is that the molds/tooling used by Walthers and Rapido today are much more solid and durable than that of a decade ago. But inspite of this, I doubt Walthers will "crank out" more Metros unless the current units sell well. But my guess is that if a good number of customers hammer Walthers with requests, we might eventually see a Penn Central version. It'd be a matter of producing the Pennsy units again except with worm heralds on them, and perhaps, different numbers.

I understand the price on the Walthers cars is just short of robbery. The price on the 350 PRR set is rape, ravage, pillage and plunder! The idea of stripping a $169 passenger car is one tough pill to swallow. But the MSRP on regular passenger cars from Uncle Phil is now at $90 for some body styles and $80 is price on the "cheap" cars. I remember when the Great Northern Empire Builder first came out in 2006, and the flat top cars(non-domes and obs) had an MSRP of $50.

But things to consider........

1. You may be able to pick up some of the Amtrak cars down the road at closeout prices or on e-Bay for a decent price.

2. Hold on to them pick up some decals(Microscale list only 79 sets in stock) and wait to see if Walthers does do the PC scheme. After holding up people for $1200 on the PRR sets, and claiming "there will no loose cars available". I don't see Walthers doing PRR again, that would cause the 350 that bought that $1200 set to be a bit miffed. But if Amtrak sells and sells quickly, Walthers may do another run and then could slip the PC's into the production. In the meantime, your doing a fine job of getting the word out and hopefully some other people that want PC will contact Walthers and kindly request the cars. Hopefully they don't do the PC's in some $1200 set!

3. If Walthers does do the PC's sell off the Amtrak, they'll be first production. If Walthers says one and done and no PC, you'll have the superior Walthers cars hopefully at half off or more and then the work to strip them and do them as PC won't seem so bad.

Undecorated would have been nice, but Walthers like Athearn seem to want to put a fork in the subject. Why Walthers didn't offer PC in this batch is currently unknown. Maybe they do plan to do a second run. If they don't do a second run then the reason for the lack of PC probably will never be known.

The hobby lately is one big lemon stand. Sometimes we have to make a lot of lemonade to get to where we want to be.

The Walthers model does look nice.

The Amfleets are next up for Walthers and are supposed to hit the shelves early next year.

[trebor]

Since when has Walthers had any remorse stabbing any of their retailers or end users in the back. They seem to have a special ops dept. specializing in dirty deed policies. I get a lot of their stuff and a lot is very nice, but the concept of the PRR limited Wall Street "Clocker" pisses me off. Profit is OK, rape is not.

[atsfan]

One good thing about the ridiculous prices is it forces era and road disciplin.

Doubt many people are casual buyers.

[Paul Cutler III]

"Rape"? Wow, over the top much? I'm sorry, but I must have missed the memo where we're all being forced to buy Metroliners.

Does anyone think Walthers (or anyone else) wants to raise prices? They're not stupid. They know what high prices are doing to sales. But the Chinese are overpricing themselves right out of the market, and taking the hobby manufacturers along for the ride. Because of this, believe it or not, some manufacturing in other industries is coming back to the USA. One potential loco and car manufacturer (River Point Station) is seriously considering setting up a factory in Rhode Island or New Hampshire because of all the issues he's having in China, and they may not be the only one to leave China (Overland did).

[trebor]

Ok if it was an Alco it would be rape, I don't HAVE to have PRR Metroliners. There are a lot of companies who have priced themselves out of business. IIRC Bugs Bunny tutorial on Capitalism touted economy of scale and reduced unit cost by mass marketing, not limited run value by artificially created scarcity.

Paul, can't wait to see your grimace when 10) 2 car sets of injected molded washboards are marketed to Bernie Maddoff, Malcom Forbes(in BNSF paint) and that Russian Putin just let out of the slammer. I would like to just see a little more mass productions benefits benefit the hobby like electronics has.

[gasmith]

Dec 27, 2013 10:12:27 GMT -8 trebor said:

Since when has Walthers had any remorse stabbing any of their retailers or end users in the back. They seem to have a special ops dept. specializing in dirty deed policies. I get a lot of their stuff and a lot is very nice, but the concept of the PRR limited Wall Street "Clocker" pisses me off. Profit is OK, rape is not.

Hopefully it will come back to bite them in the butt.  I'm a firm believer in the old adage: "Pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered."

[drolsen]

I hate to interrupt all this, but I thought you all might like a closer look at the model. I posted these on Trainorders a couple days ago, but it took me a little time to get them uploaded here.

I'm not sure if anyone noticed, but the recent Walthers magazine ad for these models mentioned that they would be displaying samples at a few locations, including M.B. Klein, my "LHS" in Baltimore (where I grew up). I got a chance to stop by the store on Thursday, but I had completely forgotten about the ad, so I was surprised to see the models on display in their case. They're getting ready to ship them back to Walthers this weekend, so I was glad I got to see them. I only had my iPhone 5 with me to take photos, combined with the poor lighting in the store, so I apologize for the quality. I'm going to post 5 at a time to break up the post so it's not too long.

Anyway, the models looks great, but I know almost nothing about the prototype, so I'll let you all be the real judges. I'll just mention a few points:

- Any distortion in the corrugations is a result of the photos and lighting (as far as I know), so please ignore those.

- The stainless finish looks pretty bright in some light and at certain angles, but I think the toned down brightness and color is better than the original plated Superliners. I haven't seen any of the other recent plated models up close, so I can't compare this finish to others.

- The close coupling looks fantastic - very realistic with the diaphragms touching while "at rest," but I think this will definitely affect their ability to negotiate curves. Walthers recommends 24" radius in their product listings, and the photos show a single unit on the Kleins test track (the loop on the green grass mat), which is Kato's very tight 21.5" (I think) radius. The test track was definitely too tight and derailed the Metroliner at higher speeds, while causing it to bind up and stop at slow speed. You can see in the photo of the lead truck on the curve that the truck is pushing against the shock strut (?) mounted on the body of the car, preventing it from turning enough to negotiate the curve. Obviously this curve is way too tight for this model, and I wouldn't expect it to work on this track or look good (as seen in the overhead shot on the curve).

- The model appears to run quite smoothly, but we were limited to the straight portion of the test loop. I'm still not a fan of HO sound at this stage in its development, so I can't really comment on the quality of the onboard sound. The guys at the shop expressed some concerns about the model only having a single powered truck under each unit, but I think if every car in the consist has one powered truck, and they're only pulling themselves, it shouldn't be too big an issue.

- I like all the crowded detail under the body - I think it will look good when weathered.

- I thought the pantagraphs looked awesome, but again, I'm not familiar with the prototype.

I'll be really tempted to pick up a set of these, but I think I'll save my money for the Amfleet cars and hold out for a cab car version of the Metroliner down the road. Hope you guys enjoy the photos,

Dave

[drolsen]

[drolsen]

[drolsen]

[markfj]

Thanks for posting the photos Dave!

You really got some great shots that highlight all the details. I must say the finish on these models is among the best I’ve seen on an RTR locomotive or car.

[conrailjr]

Does anyone know if the trucks and underframe will be painted black? I haven't seen a demo with anything except a grey underframe.. They are due to be released very soon..

[drolsen]

A lot of people seem to be fixated on a black underframe, but it looks to me like the Phase I underbody was originally gray:



That would makes sense, since the PRR / PC scheme was gray underneath, and Amtrak probably just redid the striping:



It's hard to tell from photos later in the Metroliner's service, but they may have repainted the underbody black in the Phase II scheme. I also wouldn't be surprised if Amtrak repainted some with black underbodies but left others as is during those early years.

Dave

[Paul Cutler III]

I gotta say I'm not much of a fan of the pans. All they did was to wrap a spring around the arm? Heck, my old Walthers E60CF from 1980's looked better than that (it used two springs and a bracket on the arm). I also don't like the "elbows" of the dual armed pan being higher than the shoe when folded up. Now, maybe it's a pre-production thing or it got damaged, but that's kinda weak.

[Deleted]

I wonder if you wanted to make the pantographs live if you could?

These cars are really nice. I'd love to see them under some accurate Northeast Corridor wire!

[Paul Cutler III]

Dec 27, 2013 20:22:07 GMT -8 trebor said:

Ok if it was an Alco it would be rape, I don't HAVE to have PRR Metroliners. There are a lot of companies who have priced themselves out of business. IIRC Bugs Bunny tutorial on Capitalism touted economy of scale and reduced unit cost by mass marketing, not limited run value by artificially created scarcity.

Paul, can't wait to see your grimace when 10) 2 car sets of injected molded washboards are marketed to Bernie Maddoff, Malcom Forbes(in BNSF paint) and that Russian Putin just let out of the slammer. I would like to just see a little more mass productions benefits benefit the hobby like electronics has.

trebor,
I think equating high prices to "rape" trivializes the word. It's not funny.

Limited runs have not only saved our hobby, it has expanded it like never before. The fact that Walthers is even making Metroliners ought to teach you that. Economies of scale would dictate that they should only make the most popular engines and cars in bulk. So F-units, GP9's, SD40-2's, & RS-3's, PS-2 boxcars and hoppers, Northeast cabooses and certain kinds of Pullman cars. And that's about it. You know, like it was in the 1980's.

Instead, today's hobby includes oddballs like DL-109's, Metroliners, C-430's, HH660's, RS-18's, NE-5 (and NE-6) cabooses, GP39's, AEM-7's, EF-4's (AKA E-33's), H15-44's, GP15-1's, NH I-5's, PRR T-1's, and UP turbines. Most of these models would never have been produced in plastic if it wasn't for limited runs.

WRT expensive models for the rich...so what? I've already seen these. About 5 years ago, Railway Classics came out with 3 different versions of the New Haven's 10-car "Merchants Limited" in brass. Each train set retailed for $5500, or $550 per car.

And I so wish people would stop comparing our tiny little hobby to multi-billion dollar industries like electronics, autos, or nationwide restaurant chains. We're a niche market without enough capital for that. We're not going to Corvette performance with iPhone technology at McDonald's prices. It's just not going to happen...ever.

[Chad]

Dec 28, 2013 8:35:29 GMT -8 Paul Cutler III said:

Dec 27, 2013 20:22:07 GMT -8 trebor said:

Ok if it was an Alco it would be rape, I don't HAVE to have PRR Metroliners. There are a lot of companies who have priced themselves out of business. IIRC Bugs Bunny tutorial on Capitalism touted economy of scale and reduced unit cost by mass marketing, not limited run value by artificially created scarcity.

Paul, can't wait to see your grimace when 10) 2 car sets of injected molded washboards are marketed to Bernie Maddoff, Malcom Forbes(in BNSF paint) and that Russian Putin just let out of the slammer. I would like to just see a little more mass productions benefits benefit the hobby like electronics has.

trebor,
I think equating high prices to "rape" trivializes the word. It's not funny.

Limited runs have not only saved our hobby, it has expanded it like never before. The fact that Walthers is even making Metroliners ought to teach you that. Economies of scale would dictate that they should only make the most popular engines and cars in bulk. So F-units, GP9's, SD40-2's, & RS-3's, PS-2 boxcars and hoppers, Northeast cabooses and certain kinds of Pullman cars. And that's about it. You know, like it was in the 1980's.

Instead, today's hobby includes oddballs like DL-109's, Metroliners, C-430's, HH660's, RS-18's, NE-5 (and NE-6) cabooses, GP39's, AEM-7's, EF-4's (AKA E-33's), H15-44's, GP15-1's, NH I-5's, PRR T-1's, and UP turbines. Most of these models would never have been produced in plastic if it wasn't for limited runs.

WRT expensive models for the rich...so what? I've already seen these. About 5 years ago, Railway Classics came out with 3 different versions of the New Haven's 10-car "Merchants Limited" in brass. Each train set retailed for $5500, or $550 per car.

And I so wish people would stop comparing our tiny little hobby to multi-billion dollar industries like electronics, autos, or nationwide restaurant chains. We're a niche market without enough capital for that. We're not going to Corvette performance with iPhone technology at McDonald's prices. It's just not going to happen...ever.

Well said.

[trebor]

OK, lots of good points, but even the most popular items are now limited availability. Model railroaders depend on a wide variety of products being available in a timely manner. It should not take 10 years to assemble the parts for projects.

[antoniofp45]

Great discussion guys!

I'll respond to some of the points expressed:

1. Drolsen,

Good going! You've provided a great service. Thanks for posting your photos.

From what I can see(and just my opinion) the units' surface appearance resembles that of Budd Austenitic SS with a #7 reflective finish. The distinctiveness of image ranges from #6 to #7. In plain English: high shine with a low mirror depth image. It's a realistic compromise as while some photos show Penn Central and early Amtrak units with high depth & luster appearances, many others show units with very faded appearances. This correlated with the number of times a unit took (or did not take) trips through the mechanical washers within a month's time period. A good feature about Budd's austenitic SS is that even when severely faded, consistent buffing actions quickly brought back the "shine".

Again, judging by photos only, the tone (grayness)looks good and seems to lean between neutral and cool. This is the opposite of Rapido's which leans towards the warm side (also realistic since we all know that SS appearance varies greatly with the environmental conditions it is subjected to).

2. Paneling/fluting big improvement compared to Bachmann's version as well as Walthers' older run Amfleet units.

3. Underframe Color: Pennsy, Penn Central, early-Amtrak Metroliners had gray underframes and trucks. In some photos they appear charcoal or brownish due to grime, dirt, and rust. From my understanding, while their interiors were cleaned daily, the Metros were not always washed daily. A monkey wrench for modelers has been that the Bachmann units have always had black underframes and trucks, so this likely adds fuel to the confusion regarding prototype underframe colors.

I don't have the info regarding post-1980, but I've seen photos of that time period in which some Metros appeared to have had their underframes painted black. Yet, in 1983 on my way to NYC on the Silver Meteor, I snapped a photo of a Metro still in its PC scheme with a dirty gray underframe.

4. Jim, you made good points as to why it wouldn't be a bad idea to purchase a few Amtrak versions. I'm certain that some of these Amtrak units will show up on ebay. If the price is right I may go for it and continue to hope that Walthers run some Metros in PC livery. I'm emailing Walthers and am urging other modelers interested in PC to do so as well. Looking at the photos, it appears that stripping these units would be a challenge, especially if those windows and number boards are glued in securely.

5. Paul, you objected to Babalooey's comments back on page 4. Rape is a strong word, but I admit to having rough thoughts regarding the price of the Pennsy set but chose not to express them from the keyboard. I do understand Jim's sentiments. I also understand Walthers' need to recoup on its investments, make a profit, be able to pay it's debts and still have investment capital for future projects. However, I felt that the pricing of the "Deluxe" set is WAY over the top and results in closing the door on more potential customers. But because there are only "350 sets" they apparently sold out. I get it. But in the process a number of potential, seriously interested customers like myself are left out. So naturally how are some potential customers going to react? Some with frustration......some with a bit of anger.

6. The interiors appear to be unpainted. Hopefully the underframe and shell can be separated without it becoming a surgeon's challenge. These would look nice with painted seats and some passengers. IIRC, the seats were a reddish brown color on coaches. I have the book "Great Trains of North America" by P.B Whitehouse where on page 96 it shows the interior of a Metroliner Club car. The luxury swiveling seats are ORANGE! Talk about 1970s colors and you may hear some laughter, but I do remember orange being very popular back then (anyone remember the Houston Astros and Tampa Bay Bucanneers' uniform colors from that time? ).

7. I saw the video clip on Walthers website featuring the new Amtrak units in action. The horn that was playing did not sound like a Leslie S2M but more like a Leslie S3L. Perhaps Walthers dubbed in a horn for the vid.

Here's the Walthers page: click on the audio/video tab that's below the Metroliner:

www.walthers.com/exec/page/metroliner

Here's a prototype Leslie S3L:

Here's a prototype Leslie S2M:

Again, just pointing out things I see (or in this case, hear).

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Dec 28, 2013 5:20:12 GMT -8 drolsen said: