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Post by jaygee on Jul 3, 2014 8:31:27 GMT -8
Well, I'm sorry if this is a dupe...but I just noticed in the new "Flyer" that the 2015 catalog has a pair of B&O E8s on the cover....and this is a telegraphic way of letting us know what the next passenger chooch will be. I'd go for the E8s anyway...but with a pre-1961 consist trailing out behind 'em.....so much the better. Capitol Limited, National Limited, Diplomat, who knows! It will come down to whatever is already in the mix for equipment for sure. And for the signature car....Dana, Metcalf, Wawasee, Napanee....OH joy !
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Post by jaygee on Jul 3, 2014 8:57:32 GMT -8
....."Big bowls of salad, crabs and beer....take in a movie while you're here...." Can I get a big BEEANO huzzah !
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 3, 2014 9:35:02 GMT -8
Myself, I'd prefer my beer separate and in a glass. But then I'm not that into noovoe cuisine.
Ed
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 3, 2014 10:15:18 GMT -8
B&O would be awesome. Cap Ltd, which could be expanded to Nat Ltd in a couple years.
I would be in for a set.
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Post by mlehman on Jul 3, 2014 10:44:29 GMT -8
Not for me, but this sounds like a great choice for Eastern modelers. At least they're breaking away from the PRR/NYC tangent. Nothing against them as prototypes, but variety is the spice of life.
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Post by drolsen on Jul 3, 2014 11:02:22 GMT -8
Yikes, it's going to be very hard for me to resist buying a Capitol Limited set. I certainly have more justification to own one than the Super Chief that ended up in my collection.
I'd also be interested to know if any B&O cars ended up as CSX office cars. I'm guessing at least a few did. I'll have to do some research...
Dave
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Post by keystonecrossings on Jul 3, 2014 13:05:11 GMT -8
Not for me, but this sounds like a great choice for Eastern modelers. At least they're breaking away from the PRR/NYC tangent. Nothing against them as prototypes, but variety is the spice of life. As a Pennsy modeler, I'd love to see another Pennsy set. No use for B&O, but I would fully support the choice. Beautiful train. |
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Post by mrbando on Jul 3, 2014 15:34:06 GMT -8
Some random thoughts and comments:
Why is everyone assuming that this will be The Capitol Limited? The Cap was only a "matched" set of cars in 1938, when it was made up of streamlined, heavyweight cars. By the late 1950's, it was a lightweight streamliner made up of smooth-side, P-S half-fluted, and Budd full-fluted cars, and although a neat train, it certainly couldn't be called "consistent".
The B&O train that is in keeping with the Super Chief, Empire Builder, 20th Century, Broadway, et al, is The Columbian. Two trainsets of matched, smooth-side cars were delivered by P-S in 1949. Each train consisted of a Coffee-Shoppe car (fancy name for a combine with dorm space for the crew, and a lounge for the passengers), four coaches, a dome-lounge car, diner, and observation. The domes were the first to operate in the east; I believe Wabash had very similar cars.
Having said all that, I'd like to see a Capitol Limited from ca. 1961. By this time, the Columbian had been permanently combined with the Cap; a model train would give B&O modelers a plethora of cars that were used on a bunch of B&O trains besides the Cap. Some of the cars from the Cap also operated on the SCL, Amtrak, and are still used by Ringling Brothers, Barnam and Bailey Circus.
Greg
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Post by Amboy Secondary on Jul 3, 2014 16:07:05 GMT -8
Some random thoughts and comments: Why is everyone assuming that this will be The Capitol Limited? The Cap was only a "matched" set of cars in 1938, when it was made up of streamlined, heavyweight cars. By the late 1950's, it was a lightweight streamliner made up of smooth-side, P-S half-fluted, and Budd full-fluted cars, and although a neat train, it certainly couldn't be called "consistent". The B&O train that is in keeping with the Super Chief, Empire Builder, 20th Century, Broadway, et al, is The Columbian. Two trainsets of matched, smooth-side cars were delivered by P-S in 1949. Each train consisted of a Coffee-Shoppe car (fancy name for a combine with dorm space for the crew, and a lounge for the passengers), four coaches, a dome-lounge car, diner, and observation. The domes were the first to operate in the east; I believe Wabash had very similar cars. Having said all that, I'd like to see a Capitol Limited from ca. 1961. By this time, the Columbian had been permanently combined with the Cap; a model train would give B&O modelers a plethora of cars that were used on a bunch of B&O trains besides the Cap. Some of the cars from the Cap also operated on the SCL, Amtrak, and are still used by Ringling Brothers, Barnam and Bailey Circus. Greg The assumption is based on Walthers choice of the top train on the line. You are right, the only "matched" trainset train the B&O ran that meets Walthers criteria would be the Columbian. Also, Walthers has the tooling for the Budd Slumbercoach, arguably the Columbian's most popular car. However, I too would like to see the 1961 era Capitol, just for the variety of assigned cars. Joe |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Jul 3, 2014 16:07:14 GMT -8
Hope they put together an original train set rather then a cobbled later version of a train like they did with the Pere Marquette. AS I have the El Cap and 20th Cent Ltd I'll not be in the market for more passenger trains. Great for those in the East, they've saturated the West pretty well.
Any marquee B&O trains terminate in Cleveland? That might be an avenue they take to introduce at the NMRA show there. They've done a decent job on most they've done. Hope you guys get what you want.
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Post by Amboy Secondary on Jul 3, 2014 16:15:34 GMT -8
Hope they put together an original train set rather then a cobbled later version of a train like they did with the Pere Marquette. AS I have the El Cap and 20th Cent Ltd I'll not be in the market for more passenger trains. Great for those in the East, they've saturated the West pretty well. With the B&O, that would be hard to do, unless Walthers does a 1938 -1940s era version Streamlined Heavyweight version of the "Capitol Ltd" or "National Ltd", or a Lightweight 1948 "Columbian" with F3s for power. B&O passenger train consists were generally cobbled together, with a mix of rebuilt and betterment heavyweight cars, a few bought new lightweights, and many used and leased lightweights. Certainly, not the equivalent of the Broadway Limited or Twentieth Century. That's why the possibility is so interesting, speculating on how Walthers is going to pull this one off. Joe |
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Post by jaygee on Jul 3, 2014 16:19:50 GMT -8
IIRC, the Columbian started life with a matched set of passenger F3s. The Book shows E8s in as delivered paint. I guess anything is possible...and likely with Walthers. In any event..we should get a killer B&O piece of chooch. We can narrow this down ( my attempt to squeeze info out of Walthers met with NO success), by examining what tooling is already in the pipeline, which could be used to generate this project. I can see the possibility of two, perhaps three, newly tooled cars for this train. Any more than that, in this economy would be unreal ! We already have a Bird Car, and the 10-5 PS sleeper may be OK (or not). What else can we hit with Sentinel Blue, to fill out this dream-liner???
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Post by mrbando on Jul 3, 2014 16:48:18 GMT -8
IIRC, the Columbian started life with a matched set of passenger F3s. The Book shows E8s in as delivered paint. I guess anything is possible...and likely with Walthers. In any event..we should get a killer B&O piece of chooch. We can narrow this down ( my attempt to squeeze info out of Walthers met with NO success), by examining what tooling is already in the pipeline, which could be used to generate this project. I can see the possibility of two, perhaps three, newly tooled cars for this train. Any more than that, in this economy would be unreal ! We already have a Bird Car, and the 10-5 PS sleeper may be OK (or not). What else can we hit with Sentinel Blue, to fill out this dream-liner??? Although the Columbian "press train" was pictured with the F3's, I believe that in actual practice the F's were used more often on the Cap, with the Columbian more likely to have E units. There may have been a statement to this effect in Stegmeir's book on the Chicago line trains; I do know that a number of pictures of the Capitol show it with F3's. Of course, E's were used on the Cap quite often, and I am sure the Columbian was pulled by the F3's on a regular basis. I just don't think you can say what train will be modeled on the basis of what motive power is on next year's catalog's cover. I am curious why you think there is a Bird car available--that is strictly a kit or scratch-bashing proposition, using sides from NKP Car or Union Station Products. Are you possibly thinking of the center double-bedroom 10-6 sleepers that Walthers brought out this spring? Those ARE B&O cars, and along with the 10-5 would be appropriate for the Cap. But, to do the Capitol correctly, Walthers would need to tool some or most of the following: A coffee-shoppe lounge car (either 1309, a rebuilt heavyweight, or the Columbian car), Bird 16-4 sleepers (Budd, fluted), 14-4 sleeper (P-S, smooth-side), either 1083/1084 (rebuilt heavyweight diners) or Twin-Unit diners (P-S, half fluted), 5-3-1 Dome Sleepers (Budd, fluted), and 5 dbr-Lounge-Observations (P-S, half-fluted). Oh, and they should offer the fluted version of the P-S 10-6 in B&O since the Cap had some of those. And, depending on what era, either a 1938 style 12-1, or a UP Alpine Sleeper (14 sections) repainted B&O. If they want to offer the train ca. 1961, after the Columbian was combined with it, then they need to do the Columbian's coaches and dome car (and offer the Slumbercoach). On the other hand, a lot of these cars were used by other railroads. The 10-6 has been offered for the other roads that had them; the 14-4 was used by Frisco (albiet in a fluted version, I believe), the Bird sleepers were used by SCL, Amtrak, the circus train, and maybe one of the Canadian roads?. Likewise, the dome sleepers were on SCL and, I think, Amtrak. The 5dbr-L-Obs ended up on Amtrak's Broadway Limited. The twin-unit diner came to B&O from C&O via NYC (the Wolverine?), and may have ended up on Amtrak--IC had nearly identical cars, sans fluting. From the standpoint of making a perfect, matched train, it will be the Columbian. For a larger return on the tooling, though, the Capitol would be the best choice. Personally, I am hoping for the Columbian, since I have modeled that train by "only" repainting IHC smooth-side streamline cars. Greg |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 3, 2014 18:01:47 GMT -8
I have never heard of the Columbian.
Walters always does famous trains so I doubt they would do this one.
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Post by roadkill on Jul 3, 2014 18:54:04 GMT -8
BeeNo cars? Whoa... I can dig it... but only if that are accurate. No BS Walthers.
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Post by jaygee on Jul 3, 2014 19:22:26 GMT -8
Sorry gents...not sure why I was confusing the 24-8 for the Bird car, but I was. For shame ! Anyway this should give us plenty to talk about for the next ???weeks or so. Even if she's the as built Columbian, it will be kool beyond all belief !
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Post by drolsen on Jul 3, 2014 20:17:26 GMT -8
I agree that it's likely to be the Capitol Limited, purely based on name-recognition alone. I grew up in Baltimore, and while I heard about the Capitol Limited quite often (I was born in the '70s during the Chessie era), I had never heard of the Columbian until recently. If Walthers is looking for a B&O name train that will appeal to a national audience, I think they'll go with the Capitol Limited. Regardless, I'm excited to see the B&O finally get some recognition.
Dave
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Post by jaygee on Jul 4, 2014 6:31:58 GMT -8
If she is the Cap....this will cost me a fortune! The E8 A-B-A alone won't be any kind of cheap date. And the cars...WOW ! But it will be worth it...worth it....worth it !
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Post by railthunder on Jul 4, 2014 7:03:00 GMT -8
I might be a candidate for getting some of the cars of a B&O train. I would be thrilled with a Bird sleeper and the Budd dome. For a mid sixties Florida Special one could use the B&O dome as the ACL started leasing them and somewhere I recall seeing a picture of them at the rear of the ACL trains to Florida. It would be great to see them in the other paint schemes they held i.e. SCL and Amtrak. The Bird sleepers got around on Amtrak's eastern trains, but I seem to recall seeing them the most on the Champion and the Floridian.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 4, 2014 7:18:08 GMT -8
I expect Walthers will add the floodlights to the domes--a pretty impressive effect on a model. Or in real life.
I rode in one of the dome-coaches once, and remember sitting in the dome at night. I do remember thinking how irritating the lights must have been for people trying to sleep trackside.
If they do the P-S dome, I might have to get one. I expect it'll have to get applied to my ACL coach train. The riders will be quite happy with that.
Ed
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Post by fmilhaupt on Jul 5, 2014 5:47:54 GMT -8
It'll have to have the ex-C&O twin-unit diner, solely because I just picked up the ancient Lambert models and have worked out how to upgrade them to "good enough" models to go with Walthers' C&O cars.
I'm hoping for a Dana/Wawasee/Nappanee/Metcalf ex-C&O 2500-series car that'd be released as a C&O car later.
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Post by jaygee on Jul 5, 2014 11:19:24 GMT -8
Any other B&O passenger trains operating out of Chicago that might be candidates? I'm also thinking that we might see some shared C&O / B&O types that could later be incorporated into a lightweight C&O "George" down the road. Anyway we'll be needing a dome, for sure. Could Walthers use the AT&SF dome with new side panels, for a PS smoothie??
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 5, 2014 11:59:51 GMT -8
Could Walthers use the AT&SF dome with new side panels, for a PS smoothie?? And a new dome, too. The B&O ones were lower. Ed |
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Post by mrbando on Jul 5, 2014 15:41:09 GMT -8
Any other B&O passenger trains operating out of Chicago that might be candidates? I'm also thinking that we might see some shared C&O / B&O types that could later be incorporated into a lightweight C&O "George" down the road. Anyway we'll be needing a dome, for sure. Could Walthers use the AT&SF dome with new side panels, for a PS smoothie?? The Shenandoah, which had the third sleeper-dome B&O bought from C&O. The Ambassador (not out of Chicago, but Detroit, but it otherwise operated over the Chicago line) which had Dana and Metcalf, two of the four 5dbr-L-Obs B&O got from C&O. But, these were both only partially streamlined, and carried heavyweight coaches, sleepers, and in the case of the Shenandoah, a heavyweight (albeit streamlined) 8s-L-buf-Solarium car into the 1960's. The Ambassador operated through the '50's combined quite often with the Columbian. Metcalf and Dana each had a diaphragm on the observation end, and would operate mid-train ahead of the Ambassador's diner as a mid-train lounge. This train was a sight to behold, often 17 cars long, with the Ambassador sleepers, then coaches, then the Columbian coaches and finally the Columbian's boat-tail obs. There were two diners. Now THAT would be a train for Walthers to offer.... Greg |
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Post by Amboy Secondary on Jul 5, 2014 16:50:18 GMT -8
Any other B&O passenger trains operating out of Chicago that might be candidates? I'm also thinking that we might see some shared C&O / B&O types that could later be incorporated into a lightweight C&O "George" down the road. Anyway we'll be needing a dome, for sure. Could Walthers use the AT&SF dome with new side panels, for a PS smoothie?? The Shenandoah, which had the third sleeper-dome B&O bought from C&O. The Ambassador (not out of Chicago, but Detroit, but it otherwise operated over the Chicago line) which had Dana and Metcalf, two of the four 5dbr-L-Obs B&O got from C&O. But, these were both only partially streamlined, and carried heavyweight coaches, sleepers, and in the case of the Shenandoah, a heavyweight (albeit streamlined) 8s-L-buf-Solarium car into the 1960's. The Ambassador operated through the '50's combined quite often with the Columbian. Metcalf and Dana each had a diaphragm on the observation end, and would operate mid-train ahead of the Ambassador's diner as a mid-train lounge. This train was a sight to behold, often 17 cars long, with the Ambassador sleepers, then coaches, then the Columbian coaches and finally the Columbian's boat-tail obs. There were two diners. Now THAT would be a train for Walthers to offer.... Greg The 8s-buffet lounge-solarium rebuild would be cool. Similar cars ran on the Diplomat. I believe I recall reading, (Steigmayer ?), that the Ambassador had a leased ATSF 24 duplex roomette car assigned for a while. Walthers is doing that car as part of their SF Chief. I would love to see Walthers do some of the B&O's Heavyweight Streamlined Pullman rebuilds from the '50s, interesting, but wishful thinking. There was a B&O train into Cleveland each day, through 1961 - 1962. It consisted of a Baggage Dormitory Lounge car, a HW coach, and a 10-6 sleeper, + or - a car or two. Not exactly a prime candidate for a Walthers feature train. Since in the past, Walthers has offered the as delivered consist, my bet is the Columbian. The entire train would have to be tooled, except for the Budd Slumbercoach. Joe |
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Post by roadkill on Jul 6, 2014 6:44:46 GMT -8
Let's not forget that the Walthers modernized HW coach is a B&O car (class A18 or A20?).
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Post by Amboy Secondary on Jul 6, 2014 19:00:00 GMT -8
Let's not forget that the Walthers modernized HW coach is a B&O car (class A18 or A20?). Yes, and perfect for a Diplomat, Shenandoah or 9 & 10. Walthers has previously done the HW B&O coach, the modernized HW B&O coach and the B&O 10-6. All of their HW pullmans and the pre WW2 Pullman LW 10-5 also operated on the B&O.There may be others. |
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Post by jaygee on Jul 7, 2014 10:50:32 GMT -8
Sometime around the 20th of July, we can look forward to the BIG BEEANO announcement for the new passenger train. With much fanfare, parades, speeches, and world-wide satellite coverage..we'll find out the name and consist details for this long awaited Best & Only Dreamliner ! OTOH, it could be a 3 unit Budd car set...The Speed-liner !
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 11:04:45 GMT -8
Before you B&O fans get your head out over your skis, if Walthers holds serve like they've done the last few years, it will be more whimper than wow. The Metroliner, short and sweet as it is and the corresponding Amfleets, have been the only really new tooling of a complete train. Walthers took a half heart stab at the Pere Marquette, leaving many cold to the release. The rest of the passenger train models by Wm. K have been mostly rehashes of models already in house. The "new and improved" Super Chief and Empire Builder come to mind as well as the pathetic stab at the Union Pacific executive train.
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Post by jaygee on Jul 7, 2014 17:40:27 GMT -8
The ball is certainly in their court, and I have to agree to a large extent with the above opinion. I still think that with just a few newly tooled cars, we could get a pretty decent B&O train. There's a lot they could do, even with what's already on the plate.
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