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Post by mlehman on Sept 26, 2016 9:21:59 GMT -8
Mike, As I have said, MY references are: A Union Pacific diagram of the locomotive. SNIP Please post YOUR references for stating that "all that A-unit space is NOT where something was left out." Ed Ed, Still not sure if you're referring to the diagram you posted on page 1 here or some other. I'm pretty sure the page one is not definitive. My references? Pics from angles that shows lots of daylight looking through. Obviously, you're peeking through the grating. Tried to find a good one, but maybe the impression I had was from video, looked at lots of turbine action in the last week? I presume most of what you saying is in there is down low as it's not at all obvious in the brief glimpses of daylight in the pics that do provide that? But please, some illustration would be nice here, as I'm not finding pics of what you say is in there either. This obviously raises the question of what do people expect to see of parts of a locomotive you ordinarily can't see? If it's just an outline that represents how something blocks the light coming through -- and even that light is only visible for certain restricted angles, then there's the question of do they go for that or simply leave it out because someone is going to complain that something that's only seen for certain angles and in outline only should be fully fleshed out. Other than looking into the cab, I have no expectations when I look into a model to see anything but model stuff -- and maybe a silhouette, maybe not. I looked into my Tunnel Motors grating when they were unboxed, but probably not since. It's the light showing through that creates the effect, not what's inside for the most part. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 26, 2016 13:55:35 GMT -8
Ed, Still not sure if you're referring to the diagram you posted on page 1 here or some other. I'm pretty sure the page one is not definitive. Mike, If you reread what I wrote about the drawing in that post, you will see that I wrote: "it has a different layout than the UP diagram". From that, it is plain that THIS drawing is NOT the UP diagram I am speaking about elsewhere. I believe I stated it clearly. Please show those reference pictures please. It would be good to reconcile them with my information. I look forward to seeing them. On the other hand, I can present my evidence here. Earlier I posted a link showing a photo looking up at the fan that also shows the drive shaft housing. Below I am posting a scan of the area in question from the UP diagram:  For reference: 4 is "Air Compressor" 5 is "Quick Disconnect Couplings" 21 is "Main Reservoirs" 27 is "Turbine Water Tank" 28 is "Radiator" 29 is "Radiator Fan" Note how the photo and the layout shown on the diagram reconcile. Also note that the major dimensions of the compressor are approximately 5 feet. Also consider that there has to be some sort of gearbox where the shafts interact. And that this gearbox will also be sizable. Also, even if all the missing details were present on the model, you'd still see a lot of daylight. It just wouldn't be a 100% empty void. I will speculate that you looked through the grills and saw a lot of daylight and misinterpreted that as being a large empty space. I will note that my Athearn READY TO ROLL (as opposed to Museum Quality) U50 has blowers showing behind the big screens on that model. Ed |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 26, 2016 17:34:40 GMT -8
Ed, Still not sure if you're referring to the diagram you posted on page 1 here or some other. I'm pretty sure the page one is not definitive. Mike, Please show those reference pictures please. It would be good to reconcile them with my information. I look forward to seeing them. On the other hand, I can present my evidence here. Earlier I posted a link showing a photo looking up at the fan that also shows the drive shaft housing. Below I am posting a scan of the area in question from the UP diagram: View AttachmentFor reference: 4 is "Air Compressor" 5 is "Quick Disconnect Couplings" 21 is "Main Reservoirs" 27 is "Turbine Water Tank" 28 is "Radiator" 29 is "Radiator Fan" Note how the photo and the layout shown on the diagram reconcile. Also note that the major dimensions of the compressor are approximately 5 feet. Also consider that there has to be some sort of gearbox where the shafts interact. And that this gearbox will also be sizable. Also, even if all the missing details were present on the model, you'd still see a lot of daylight. It just wouldn't be a 100% empty void. I will speculate that you looked through the grills and saw a lot of daylight and misinterpreted that as being a large empty space. I will note that my Athearn READY TO ROLL (as opposed to Museum Quality) U50 has blowers showing behind the big screens on that model. Ed Ed, Yeah, too many references to what and what not was the pics. Good to see the one's here, as it's less confusing for us old farts. I didn't mean 100% nothing. It's a locomotive, for Pete's sake. Gotta be hoses, cables, reservoirs, all kinds of miscellaneous stuff passing through and hanging around. Didn't realize there was an air compressor, though, shows how much can't be easily seen through those grates. Just reporting what I saw. If we go around opening panels, dropping grates, and poking at the innards to find new sources of Missing Part Angst (yes, a newly identified disorder scheduled to be included in DSM-V usually found almost exclusively among model railroaders) I think that really will have the mfg's start throwing up their hands, don't you know? More on that in a moment. That does cut things down to about 95% empty space. There's not too much they could really pack in there as they need to get the airflow over the radiators, presumably somewhere close to that represented by the grate SF. Of course there's a fan drive, but it's view is screened from the side by solid panels. I presume when you look down there, you'd see the fan or we'd really be hearing a lot of crying right now. Of course, this leads back to what's a decent model. What you see? Pretty much. The opening doors have already been dissed as toy like. I think they're well done and allow a peek inside where an opening was a normal pars of operations and you would see something if they opened and there was a whole lot of nuttin. The grating we're talking about would not normally come off for maintenance, folks would instead walk right into all that *ahem* nearly empty space. So Athearn still takes top dog bragging rights in the "vague gray blobs behind screens" department? Sounds like a opportunity for an aftermarket part for those who feel their turbine is still missing something. Another thought why it's all blobless in there (as opposed the the 95% bloblessness of the 1:1) is that putting something in there might have compromised the sound, dunno, someone who has one might be able to say more about that. And we know how picky some are about sound these days, so perhaps another point of compromise in designing the model. And Ed, just in case it's not obvious, I'm no UP turbine expert, but do like discussions where people put the emphasis on learning, rather than nitpicking. Thanks for supporting that common courtesy by posting up the pics. BTW, anyone know about the nose "cheeks" I asked about earlier? |
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Post by milgentrains on Sept 26, 2016 18:48:25 GMT -8
Knowing nothing about UP's Turbines I can guess that the turbine was in the b unit and the fuel is in the tender. Is the A unit nothing more than a control cab or is it powered?
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Sept 26, 2016 19:42:26 GMT -8
Knowing nothing about UP's Turbines I can guess that the turbine was in the b unit and the fuel is in the tender. Is the A unit nothing more than a control cab or is it powered? It has a diesel,engine in it, often referred to as 'hostler power' that was used to move the 3 unit loco around the yards and service facilities. The turbine, indeed located,in the "B" unit, was fired up after the whole shooting match was hooked up to the train and ready to go. That's the simple basic answer to your question. Others may add more info as soon as they define what the meaning of is, is.  |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 26, 2016 20:56:35 GMT -8
Mike,
I'm glad that I could convince you that you were incorrect when you said that "all that A-unit space is NOT where something was left out."
At your request, I have shown you mine, now it's time to show me yours. Where are the photos? Common courtesy, as you said.
It appears that you think that, because a detail part is covered by a screen, it becomes a "blob". I assure you, it does not. The castings for the blower housings on the Athearn U50 are very nice and very complex, and can be clearly seen through the screening. If ScaleTrains had installed the appropriate parts in the void, I am sure they would be equally visible. But they did not.
I suggest you revisit James's video, where he turns the A unit on his turntable. You can clearly see right through the locomotive. And you can clearly NOT see the detail parts that should be there: a big air compressor, a gearbox, several shafts.........
I certainly agree there is an opportunity for an after-market part, here. Just the thing for "Museum Quality" buyers to look forward to.
I must admit I am impressed by your speculation that adding the missing detail parts was possibly nixed so that the sound system could work. I am especially looking forward to further discussion about this possibility.
And it might be appropriate to repeat myself. This model is exquisite. There were several mistakes and/or irritating judgement calls (coarseness of sliding doors). Mistakes shouldn't have happened. But even with those mistakes, the model is tip-top. And I would have bought one or more if I was on a turbine-kick. And been very happy. And built/bought that detail kit(s).
Ed
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Post by The Ferro Kid on Sept 26, 2016 22:06:20 GMT -8
This is more a prototype question, but does anyone know the purposes of the "cheeks" on either side of cab/nose below the windshield line? Extra legroom for the crew? A bump-out so vision to the rear is better? Or (most likely I think) a clearance issue on tight curves to stay within the loading gauge? I'm thinking they may be sand boxes. |
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Post by 71eagle on Sept 26, 2016 23:28:19 GMT -8
If I may suggest that our friend cf7 check the posted images of the turbine on ScaleTrains.com and or view the actual model. Do they show a near 90 degree corner on the window insert or a curve similar to the prototype? Thanks. Arlen Wiederstein Audubon,Iowa Arlen - Did you even look at the comparison photos on page one of this thread? That tells you everything you need to know....no need to look elsewhere. I certainly hope everything you purchase, or want to purchase, is up to your standards and that you have zero complaints with anything. When I saw the page 1 ScaleTrains #26 that had a window insert labeled as being at 90 degrees ,I agreed with that. I wanted to confirm or refute what the image showed by viewing the ScaleTrains online head end view of #18,#26,#27 and #30 plus check my # 18. The ScaleTrains images can show what details buyers can expect on their turbine. Arlen Wiederstein |
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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Sept 27, 2016 5:33:50 GMT -8
Before we address the three primary topics about our "Big Blow" Turbine in this thread, we want to be sure we're all on the same page. No operating scale model locomotive from any manufacturer is 100% perfect. Aiming a shrink ray at the prototype and receiving an exact reproduction is impossible. Although manufacturers rarely share the compromises made, every locomotive has some.
For example, the model "A" unit includes the radiator fan housing behind the radiator grilles at the top. The real locomotive has fan blades that were left out of the model intentionally so we could place the speaker inside the housing.
A shaft from the radiator fan extends to the air compressor below. This was not included in the model because attaching the bottom of the shaft would interfere with the drivetrain and hamper the performance of the locomotive. I'm also sure we'd all agree stopping the shaft abruptly and leaving it hanging in mid-air would be a greater eyesore than open space.
For readers unfamiliar with the “A” unit, the prime mover is located in the center of the locomotive and not visible. The other diagram shown in this thread is a General Overview Drawing (GOD). This drawing provides basic overall dimensions. Based on what is left in the interior of #18 and #26, the drawing is not to scale. Also, most of the interior space is open in the prototype.
Finally, we never stated there would be interior detail behind the radiator grilles. Manufacturers rarely include this detail. The model used as an example sits much “taller in the saddle” so there is plenty of clearance for the drivetrain.
Sometimes compromises are made because of tooling constraints, type of material, ease of assembly, etc. The bottom, outside corners of the windshield have a compound radius curve. Compound radius curves require an undercut in the tooling which is physically impossible to render with a one-piece body. The alternative is to make a separate part and install it on the model. In this case, the part would consist of the windshield area of the cab.
The windshield radius difference is minimal so we decided molding the body in one-piece was better than risking an alignment problem when the windshield area is attached to the body. We would likely have a high defect rate and discard a-lot of bodies in the sub-assembly process. The shape of the nose is critical and if the parts were misaligned, it would be a much greater distraction for more modelers than the radius.
The documentary Scale Trains, Big Dreams by TrainMastersTV shows how much effort was exerted to ensure the complex compound curves of the nose and cab including the “cheeks” were rendered correctly. If you missed this in-depth look at the development of the Turbine, the 3-part series will be available at no charge during October.
Finally, the lifting lug cover plates on either side of the headlight stand slightly proud off the surface of the prototype. The bolt detail is a noticeable feature so we created separately applied cover plates. Due to tooling constraints, there is no way to render this detail because of the direction the slides inside the tool are pulling away from the one-piece body during molding.
While we do everything within our abilities to ensure our models are as accurate as possible, we are human and will make mistakes from time-to-time. In addition, every model is hand-assembled from hundreds of pieces. The 3-unit Turbine has over 1200 parts! When we fall short, we’ll do everything within reason to resolve the issue.
As for the "Big Blow" Turbine, we believe our model is as close to perfect as it can be. From the comments we’ve received, most people agree. We hope you do too.
Thanks for taking the time to read this long post. We appreciate your support.
Shane
Shane Wilson
President
ScaleTrains.com, Inc.
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Post by mlehman on Sept 27, 2016 6:27:30 GMT -8
Mike, I'm glad that I could convince you that you were incorrect when you said that "all that A-unit space is NOT where something was left out." At your request, I have shown you mine, now it's time to show me yours. Where are the photos? Common courtesy, as you said. It appears that you think that, because a detail part is covered by a screen, it becomes a "blob". I assure you, it does not. The castings for the blower housings on the Athearn U50 are very nice and very complex, and can be clearly seen through the screening. If ScaleTrains had installed the appropriate parts in the void, I am sure they would be equally visible. But they did not. I suggest you revisit James's video, where he turns the A unit on his turntable. You can clearly see right through the locomotive. And you can clearly NOT see the detail parts that should be there: a big air compressor, a gearbox, several shafts......... I certainly agree there is an opportunity for an after-market part, here. Just the thing for "Museum Quality" buyers to look forward to. I must admit I am impressed by your speculation that adding the missing detail parts was possibly nixed so that the sound system could work. I am especially looking forward to further discussion about this possibility. And it might be appropriate to repeat myself. This model is exquisite. There were several mistakes and/or irritating judgement calls (coarseness of sliding doors). Mistakes shouldn't have happened. But even with those mistakes, the model is tip-top. And I would have bought one or more if I was on a turbine-kick. And been very happy. And built/bought that detail kit(s). Ed Ed, I don't think it's so much something that's "incorrect" as it is a matter of semantics. Already explained how you may have taken a bit of hyperbole and stretched it into an absolute -- not my intention, don't turn it into one of those silly arguments I might run across splitting hairs of meaning in a graduate seminar. Trying to get a good angle to see everything that's possible to see in there is hampered by the love of railfan photogs for the classic 3/4 shot, which shows nothing but grates. Here's a link to what you usually see even when you get a square on shot, because a ground level pic and the angle of the grating means most of the time the viewer sees nothing -- a "blocked" nothing, but still mostly nothing -- as in this pic of #18 at Union: www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=1258446I actually suspect this may not be a representative view. It looks as if there's more than the grating blocking the view, as if the museum may have a tarp or something up to keep snow from accumulating inside, not good for a museum piece, but all you can do until a shed big enough to house it might be built. Then again, maybe it is really just the grates, emphasized how little view is had with the 1:1 unless you manage a better, higher angle view, which few seem to have done. A couple of more GEs sitting at poor angles, but you can sort of make out some daylight. www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=2524319Another issue is what is there to see, even when the angle is right, is the compressor and it's up against the back side of the open space. Unless you were exactly perpendicular and at exactly the right angle and right lighting, its shape would be masked in the shadows where it sits. On the diagram you posted, that and the drive up to the fan (and its supports hidden behind the solid panel above the grating) is about all you might see. Coincidentally enough, Shane has already explained why that isn't there, very similar to the reason I speculated why it wasn't. And if you look at about 6:16 to 6:20 in James's (and Kenneth's) new review of the RivetCounter version ( atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/5004/joint-review-trains-counter-turbine), you can actually see the drive does occupy and move through this space where, ummm, the compressor and anything else you feel should be there on the floor isn't because of this. I think where I was seeing most space through the gratings was glimpses in various videos of the Turbines in action. Obviously easy enough to google up however many of those you want to see. Overall, if I was going to take all the evidence, I'd say there's not much you can see through the gratings. And we know from the diagrams it is indeed mostly empty space. So seeing anything other than grates or glimpses all the way through, you're not going to see much of whatever is inside. Mostly, I think the consumer is happy with the compromises. The issue is a little more apparent, because the unnatural high angles most view their layouts from tend to emphasize the see through nature of the grills and the lighting and small physical size of the model mean that lights falls inside a little more easily at this unusual viewing angles than on the prototype. Hard to fault anyone for doing it this way, unless you feel ScaleTrains should've farmed out the trucks to Kato for some of those new all below the chassis drives. That would make it possible to detail that space that you mostly can't see. I'm not sure a couple of hundred $$ more for stuff you mostly can't see is what most folks would want, but YMMV -- and it is a model, you actually do have permission and legal standing to improve things like this that some may desire. Folks have been doing this for decades, many have just gotten rather rusty as a hobby by expecting someone else to do ALL the legwork we might possibly desire. I think ScaleTrains gets you 99% of the way there, but if you need that extra little feature inside, the shell does come off for access. Glad to hear you still consider it an impressive model, nonetheless. Because for only ~$2000 more, you could have it this way (in brass, with paint, glazing and sound/DCC), where the grills aren't even half as good as on ScaleTrains's turbine and it looks like a whole lot of nothing behind them (although not really a good angle to see that): www.brasstrains.com/Classic/Product/Detail/066453/HO-Scale-Brass-Model-Train-OMI-Overland-6570-1-UP-Union-Pacific-8500-HP-3-Unit-Gas-Turbine-2-F-P-w-DC-DCC-Sound |
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Post by mlehman on Sept 27, 2016 6:44:02 GMT -8
This is more a prototype question, but does anyone know the purposes of the "cheeks" on either side of cab/nose below the windshield line? Extra legroom for the crew? A bump-out so vision to the rear is better? Or (most likely I think) a clearance issue on tight curves to stay within the loading gauge? I'm thinking they may be sand boxes. The thought of sand boxes did cross my mind, but I didn't see anything that jumped out to me that might be filler hatches. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 27, 2016 11:58:20 GMT -8
I don't think it's so much something that's "incorrect" as it is a matter of semantics. Already explained how you may have taken a bit of hyperbole and stretched it into an absolute -- not my intention, don't turn it into one of those silly arguments I might run across splitting hairs of meaning in a graduate seminar. I didn't know it was hyperbole. I thought it was a statement of fact. I am surprised you would introduce hyperbole into what should be a discussion of facts and opinions. In the future, I will try to be aware that you occasionally feel the need to exaggerate for effect. I do suggest that you try to do this more in the story telling topics rather than the more factual ones. Also, I do not appreciate being scolded for examining and analyzing your statements. I do agree that finding good side shots of these locos is extremely difficult. Considering that there are two extant that a modeler can just walk up to and photograph, I do believe there are several someones out there who have shoved their lenses up to the subject grill to record what's inside. Yes, daylight does show through. I expect that it would. And that the things inside would cause obstruction to part of that daylight. The compressor does indeed sit at one end of the opening. And it is large. And it has a finite depth. Here you seem to be doing everything you can to make an argument that it's practically invisible. Is this more hyperbole? Coincidentally. I did look at that segment of the video. I note that the (model) drive shaft enters into the opening from the front (motor end) and angles downward until it is below the bottom level of the screen at about the middle. So there is clearly room at the rear for the compressor. And most of the gearbox and fan drive could fit, also. The (model) drive shaft should have been painted black, I think. If I had this model, I would already be researching air compressors. And Mike. You are spending an awful lot of time insisting that if the missing parts were inside, you couldn't see them anyway. And yet you insist on pointing out a spot in the video where "...you can actually see the drive...". Do you see that that can look a little humorous? Ed |
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Post by Judge Doom on Sept 27, 2016 12:45:06 GMT -8
Judge,One thing for sure we can't compare millions of cars being sold to a few thousand HO engines. The Edsel was a disaster before it rolled off the assembly line and was never made again even though it was thought to be a designed of the future. Seems to be a open market for generics since Bachmann is still going strong and holding a nice chunk of the market. Scale Trains "Operator Line" is another indication there is a market share waiting to be plucked.. Athearn still has their RTR market with older MDC cars with minor upgrades-the old BB freight cars is still available as RTR. Atlas has their Trainman and Walthers has three different lines of models-there must be a market for the less detailed.. I'm comparing the principle behind the issue, please try to follow along. Reread again, my point is that you don't throw in the towel altogether when your latest product encounters bugs and criticisms. The strong fix them and move on, the weak get up and walk away from the table, and someone else eats their dinner in the market. We're not talking about the generic market - we're talking about the high-end market in the scenario that you described, where all manufacturers give up on it and go to the generic, leaving the high-end market unfulfilled and ripe for the picking by another company or new startups. Which will, never happen. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Sept 27, 2016 15:02:22 GMT -8
Shane, thanks for the explanation. I'm happy with my model of the Big Blow Turbine, thanks for taking the risk to create it.
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Post by ambluco on Sept 27, 2016 16:46:03 GMT -8
Who knew hyperbole was used on internet forums? Weird.
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Post by mlehman on Sept 28, 2016 0:57:34 GMT -8
I don't think it's so much something that's "incorrect" as it is a matter of semantics. Already explained how you may have taken a bit of hyperbole and stretched it into an absolute -- not my intention, don't turn it into one of those silly arguments I might run across splitting hairs of meaning in a graduate seminar. I didn't know it was hyperbole. I thought it was a statement of fact. I am surprised you would introduce hyperbole into what should be a discussion of facts and opinions. In the future, I will try to be aware that you occasionally feel the need to exaggerate for effect. I do suggest that you try to do this more in the story telling topics rather than the more factual ones. Also, I do not appreciate being scolded for examining and analyzing your statements. SNIP And Mike. You are spending an awful lot of time insisting that if the missing parts were inside, you couldn't see them anyway. And yet you insist on pointing out a spot in the video where "...you can actually see the drive...". Do you see that that can look a little humorous? Ed Ed, It was the slightest of hyperboles, the sort that is found in discussions everyday, just wanted to note that I feel the give and take of a discussion shouldn't require testing ever adjective and adverb, etc, etc. Didn't you get enough of that in school? After all, this is essentially one of those is the cup half empty or is it half full discussions. In fact, it's more like a discussion of exactly how slightly full it has to be to ignore the empty that constitutes the bulk of the volume there. Or it's a discussion of exactly how much you need to be able to see peeking inside a loco before something should be modeled. Not much apparently. I suppose ScaleTrains will next have to contract for some real turbines to satisfy this lust for the nearly unseen, but needs to be modeled. That's gonna make these babies really pricey, but they will be able to offer a new bonus feature in the Museum Quality++ grade -- a small ceramic coffee cup holder that will fit over the exhaust, allowing the hardcore operator to keep at it for hours with the aid of turbine-heated hot coffee. It will be completely and quickly removable for those sudden visits from the humorless prototype-obsessed neighbor who comes by your place to run, because the 3' of fine scale track he's laying one spike at a time isn't quite ready for ops this year either. In the interests of complete transparency in order to ensure the complete model railroad experience, most of that last paragraph was some pretty serious hyperbole, but this discussion looks like it needs some serious humor, which only hyperbole can deliver. I think you must've skimmed the discussion of angles, though, because the reason you can see in is almost wholly the result of the unnatural viewing angles present on the layout and not in real life. Ummm, you're not REALLY suggesting the next run of turbines should omit drive to the rear truck in the A unit to instead install detail you have to stick a camera through the grating to see are you? Those folks with grades are going to be a bit bummed if ScaleTrains decides to act to right this sort of grievous omission, but who cares if those cool trains can't climb a hill, the UP didn't have any of those did it? Of course, with drones, the lack of high angle views will be less and less true in the future, but there were no drones when the Big Blows were running. I can sense your disappointment there isn't more in what was a mostly empty space. Nothing wrong with that, although it's a bit beyond the expectations of most. Hopefully, the aftermarket can satisfy your need to fill that space should you decide to invest in one. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Sept 28, 2016 5:21:26 GMT -8
Speaking of drones, this whole nit picking rambling is droning to an end soon I hope. Sure seems like a lot wasted energy in the one upsmanship going on here. Lets go play with our toy trains.
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Post by Donnell Wells on Sept 29, 2016 4:43:44 GMT -8
Karl,
I am inclined to agree. I boils down to this: if you like your turbine, then you are doing fine. It not, send it back and get something else more to your liking. At this point, the current turbine is likely not going good to change much, so either you're in, or you're out. It is as simple as that. I think we sometimes spend way too much time over-analyzing and psychoanalyzing each others view points that we miss the intent of the hobby! Please, enough or the topic will be closed!
Donnell
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