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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Dec 8, 2016 12:34:59 GMT -8
RTR/Good Enough = 10 This will typically always be a 10 ----------------------------------- Brian,That depends on the modeler that models close enough/good enough some of us has above average standards for choosing models for that type of modeling style and for many of us that means era specific instead of a hodge podge collection of cars and locomotives from all eras. Brakie or Larry, I respect your reply. Although you are not addressing my reply in its context. you are taking it off on another tangent. I am ONLY refering to teh ScaleTrains SD40-2. I think RTR is pretty well self explanatory. An RTR person is not a modeler. They buy the product because it is Ready To Run and they do not have to do anything to it. Buy it, pull it out of the box and run it. There is NOTHING modeling about it. As long as it has the road name of their favorite railroad, it is ready to run for them. You have a valid point about good enough. I have friends that are good enough modelers. They still build models, but to a standard that does not require extra effort in their goal of having a prototype model. The ScaleTrains SD40-2 falls into that category of it is good enough because I DO NOT have to do anything to it. Everything is in the right place. There is no effort needed to improve the model other than maybe weather it. So the model itself is good enough. Now Brakie or Larry, this is referring to the Scale Trains SD40-2. Not a Bowser RS3 or Atlas GP38 or what not. This thread is about the Scale Trains SD40-2. I am not talking about era or hodge podge of cars. I am commenting on the Scale Trains SD40-2. The modeler on the other hand has issues with the model. Albeit minor, there are still issues that need to be addressed. I am not hammering ScaleTrains or poopooing them. I am making a comment based on the views of a modeler. I am a modeler or model maker or model builder. I am not saying I will not buy any because I already have 8 Kato's that are good enough like you did with the new Bowser RS3 in another thread about the new announcements from Trainfest. The Scale Trains SD40-2 is a GREAT starting point for a museum quality SD40-2. If they would just correct the side frames with a builders mark. Something Shane said they would do when they first announced this model and again backed up that they would add it when I asked again at Trainfest. I am asking ScaleTrains to pony up and live up to their word. Brian The UP and other SD40-2 samples we debuted at Trainfest several weeks ago, and showing on this thread, are all built with first test shots, and as such will feature improvements before they are approved for production. The mold parting line on the side of the low hood was noted in initial reviews from when we first received sample parts, as was the lack of EMD logo and foundry data. These and other issues will be fixed on production. Paul
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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Dec 8, 2016 12:35:51 GMT -8
I have to ask. Are these pre-production samples or production samples? Brian Pre-production. Paul
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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Dec 8, 2016 12:46:33 GMT -8
Bottom step in the last photo was installed upside down. Look closely, you can easily see it. The assembler MUST have used the etch metal step meant for the other side in order for it to have fit in that spot. Otherwise, modern UP has UP gray trucks, are these getting that gray too? The bottom steps are molded in place; the top and middle steps are applied separately. As for the trucks, these units were all built in 1980, and came with silver ("aluminum" in UP-speak) painted trucks. Gray didn't come until February 15, 1984, and still took years for trucks to be swapped or repainted. Paul
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Post by cf7 on Dec 8, 2016 12:59:42 GMT -8
Looks pretty damn good to me! I would like an undec, though.
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Post by SD90 on Dec 8, 2016 15:31:56 GMT -8
They look so good, I might have to get a pair of the BN and Chessie units too!
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Post by Chad on Dec 8, 2016 17:44:48 GMT -8
Those look fantastic. I very much look forward my BN units.
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Post by areibel on Dec 8, 2016 18:19:15 GMT -8
(snip) Just be sure to hire a cranky old lady with OCD and a good work ethic. Ed But..But.. My wife doesn't speak Chinese! Oh, you meant over there- never mind!
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Dec 8, 2016 20:18:25 GMT -8
Need undecs
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Post by Christian on Dec 9, 2016 4:40:34 GMT -8
I have to ask. Are these pre-production samples or production samples? Pre-production. Pre production photos are a big "darned if you do" "darned if you don't" issue in this instant information age. Multiply the comments in this forum by the number of forums and groups where these photos have been posted. It must be a bit of a nightmare for factory folks. Catching previously unknown "oopsies" can be helpful, or not - depending on where the product is located in the production cycle. And then there is having to repeat, endlessly, the answers to some questions. IE, the mold line. But if folks like Brain don't get up on their high horses and start shouting there are going to be a lot more errors. The folks who are surrender monkeys about details do the manufacturer no service. The manufacturers reputation relies on good press. Nowadays that means good internet presence. Brian's articles and comments about using the new SD40-2's can be very, very good for ScaleTrains. A manufacturer can react a lot of ways. Rapido and Bowser are leading the way with very clear replies from owner to consumers. And have the communication skills to clearly make known why some issues of detail are present. ScaleTrains is learning. The folks there come from a company which was not known for being forthcoming so I'm quite willing to give them some slack for the time being. On the other hand, the manufacturer must tread a careful line. We the users can shoot off our mouths without endangering thousands of dollars of some person's money. There is a well known story about a convention trade show shouting match between Atlas's Steve Schaffan and Roco's Heinz Rössler over an upcoming model that impacted both business for several years. That battle was before the internet. Now we'd have iPhone video of the whole shebang, from several angles, and spend months hashing every word. Schaffan and Rössler would be roasted for everything going icky in the hobby and the world. I think that if I were a manufacturer posting pre production photos I'd stencil the model with big neon letters: Pre Production. Yeah, I know. Folks would gripe about the typeface and placement of the banner.
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Post by jonklein611 on Dec 9, 2016 5:01:46 GMT -8
There is a well known story about a convention trade show shouting match between Atlas's Steve Schaffan and Roco's Heinz Rössler over an upcoming model that impacted both business for several years. Which model was that?
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Post by scl1234 on Dec 9, 2016 7:50:04 GMT -8
The ConCor/Atlas SD-35 manufactured by Roco.
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Post by riogrande on Dec 9, 2016 8:20:48 GMT -8
Never heard of that but I know a number of Atlas diesels which were ROCO manufactured included also the GP40, FP7 among others in the 1970's. That story must go back a long time.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Dec 9, 2016 9:12:06 GMT -8
Brian, I'm sorry, but I disagree with your assertion that a "RTR person is not a modeler". Modeling a railroad is not just building reproductions of equipment. Modeling a railroad can also mean reproducing its operations as well.
My former next door neighbor did incredibly detailed operations. He replicated all the paperwork (and being a former Towerman, he had original flimsys), used real passenger train consist books to make up his passenger trains, ran them using actual timetables and made all the station stops. For freights, he made up train lists for every train, flat switched his yard and even paused to pick up and drop off brakemen as he went. He taught me how to receive Form D's and Form 19's the correct way, with him reading it and me repeating it back by spelling out every station name and number.
The trick is that the whole layout was American Flyer S-gauge. Everything he owned was RTR and always had been.
To me, he was a modeler because he was modeling the operations of a railroad even if it was with tinplate toy trains. He was certainly more realistic in his operations than most of us have ever been (and yes, I include myself).
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Post by SantaFeSammy on Dec 9, 2016 9:30:16 GMT -8
These sure are super nice looking and I'm looking forward to what the upcoming Santa Fe releases look like since I just may possibly be able to make room for a few of them on my roster.
FWIW: I got to see some of these up close and personal at the OKC train show this past weekend. Picked one up and thought "WOW- this is heavy!" Then found out it didn't even have the motor in it yet! So, this will probably be a good pulling unit.
I just hope and pray these have a nice motor in them. And not one of these puny motors that tend to stall out when under too much load.
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Post by Brakie on Dec 9, 2016 9:55:00 GMT -8
Never heard of that but I know a number of Atlas diesels which were ROCO manufactured included also the GP40, FP7 among others in the 1970's. That story must go back a long time. I recall hearing about that fiasco and if memory serves within three years after that fiasco Atlas turn to Kato for their drives. A positive move for Atlas and us modelers. It was around this time things started heating up for better detailed diesel locomotives.MR even ran a survive and several questions was about better detailed locomotives along with the price(s) we was willing to pay for detailed locomotives. To my mine that when the hobby started the push for better detailed models took hold and that push was capped by Life Like's Proto 2000 models the newest toast of the hobby. Fun times for all.
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Post by 12bridge on Dec 9, 2016 10:07:05 GMT -8
Brian is right, the fit and assembly for some of these is terrible. Especially to post one with a broken plow.
There is some photos of the Chessie one on the website, and the paint is horrible. The orange is bleeding through onto the blue on the hood, poor masking. And molded in color (translucent) handrails. Ugh.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 10:22:23 GMT -8
I will stick to my guns Paul C. RTR is not model building. Patterning your operations after the prototype is not building a model. It is simulation. In the scale model world, model building has only one definition. That would be building a scale model. You sit at the bench and you fondle plastic or brass or wood or whatever tangible material you build from. Be it equipment, scenery or structures. RTR is not model building. You can simulate real world operations whether you RTR or RPM. In either case, simulating operations is not model building.
I am not stating that RTR (locomotives and freight cars) is bad. An RTR person may still be a model builder. Just not equipment. Maybe they like scenery and build beautiful scenes. maybe structures and can kitbash the hell out of structure kits. Buying a locomotive or a piece of rolling stock and plopping it on the track to operate is not model building. BUT, for this topic of conversation it is about equipment. Specifically the ScaleTrains SD40-2 and RTR in this topic refers to railroad equipment.
RTR's in this hobby have a much different set of standards. They are riding on the coat tails of those who have a much higher set of standards that are putting pressure on the manufacturers to improve the models. Then when we get our noses out of joint because the manufacturer made a mistake, the RTR crowd tells us we should just be happy manufacturer X made the model in the first place. If a company comes out and tells us their product is museum quality or rivet counter, it pretty well damn sure should be because there are those of us out here that know what should and should not be on a model of that quality. Meaning specific detail placement or number of rivets. Right now, although the ScaleTrains SD40-2 is far and above the best SD40-2 ever produced for us, the quality of its current finished version is no better than Athearn except I do not see any glue blobs. Bring me undec kits and you will shut me up.
Brian
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Post by 12bridge on Dec 9, 2016 10:27:39 GMT -8
I agree with Brian, Model Building, and Operations are two completely different fields. Some people build, some operate, some both.
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Post by dharris on Dec 9, 2016 10:39:03 GMT -8
Good lord
Surrender Monkees
Riding on the coat tails
Operating is not Model Railroadiing
Can't we all just get along ?!
It is all just playing with trains as a hobby for fun Or relaxation or enjoyment.
Get over it and go have fun ?
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Post by Brakie on Dec 9, 2016 10:41:01 GMT -8
I will stick to my guns Paul C. RTR is not model building. Patterning your operations after the prototype is not building a model. It is simulation. In the scale model world, model building has only one definition. That would be building a scale model. You sit at the bench and you fondle plastic or brass or wood or whatever tangible material you build from. Be it equipment, scenery or structures. RTR is not model building. You can simulate real world operations whether you RTR or RPM. In either case, simulating operations is not model building. I am not stating that RTR (locomotives and freight cars) is bad. An RTR person may still be a model builder. Just not equipment. Maybe they like scenery and build beautiful scenes. maybe structures and can kitbash the hell out of structure kits. Buying a locomotive or a piece of rolling stock and plopping it on the track to operate is not model building. BUT, for this topic of conversation it is about equipment. Specifically the ScaleTrains SD40-2 and RTR in this topic refers to railroad equipment. RTR's in this hobby have a much different set of standards. They are riding on the coat tails of those who have a much higher set of standards that are putting pressure on the manufacturers to improve the models. Then when we get our noses out of joint because the manufacturer made a mistake, the RTR crowd tells us we should just be happy manufacturer X made the model in the first place. If a company comes out and tells us their product is museum quality or rivet counter, it pretty well damn sure should be because there are those of us out here that know what should and should not be on a model of that quality. Meaning specific detail placement or number of rivets. Right now, although the ScaleTrains SD40-2 is far and above the best SD40-2 ever produced for us, the quality of its current finished version is no better than Athearn except I do not see any glue blobs. Bring me undec kits and you will shut me up. Brian The move toward better detailed models started back in the 60's with Don Dover's Extra 200 South and the big shove came in the 80s and as a result we seen Life Likes P2K models. It was a uphill battle because all the manufacturers said it would be to expensive until a toy train company showed it could be done then it was catch up time with Athearn being the last to board the detail train. Get right down to it we have the best models that's ever been made models and the question just may be are we becoming spoiled? As already been pointed out those are preproduction test models.. There is no difference between modelers after its all said and done. BTW..EMD,GE,Alco FM and the railroads never used model production phases that's pure X2200 South jargon.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 10:56:22 GMT -8
One other point I want to make. We have been told that ScaleTrains plans to offer undecorated models when the production reaches a specific point were they have enough parts available for the variety (phases) of SD40-2's. That is great to hear. I guess we will have to wait and see. With that said, ScaleTrains and just about every other manufacturer out there is targeting the RTR person. Not the modeler. I know that I do not amount to a hill of beans to ScaleTrains or Athearn or Atlas or Rapido or any of them. My opinion means squat. The proof is James Will. No offense directed toward you James, but you put yourself out there and James quite honestly and I say this with constructive criticism, you do not know your way around a locomotive to even give a honest review of whether it is correct or not. Your reviews are not targeted toward the modeler. You do a good service to the manufacturers that support you. Your reviews are specifically for the RTR crowd and it IS the RTR crowd that is keeping these manufacturers in business. That is great, because then I get to ride the coat tails of the RTR crowd and am able to buy these models. Never in a million years did I think an SD39 would ever see the light of day. Unfortunately for me though the RTR crowd has decimated the undecorated diesel locomotive market. Every now and then we get thrown an undec bone. You have NO IDEA what it is like to strip a Kato model or disassemble an Athearn model to undecorate them. Before I can build a model, I have to deconstruct it. Undecs take a lot of that pain away.
I lobby for state of the art tooling and undecs. At least the tooling has come a long way. It is just a lot of work to disassemble and strip all that road paint off the models. Atlas has the thinnest best paint work for locomotives and is the easiest to strip.
The point I was trying to make which I pretty much did not. But my point is that the RTR crowd has nearly killed the undecorated market as well as almost obliterated the detail parts market. Those of us that build models still are on life support. Soon to become dinosaurs.
Brian
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 11:04:54 GMT -8
dharris, why do you come to these forums? Are we not allowed to voice our passions and opinions? Isn't that what this whole social media thing is. Having conversations about what moves you to be in this hobby?
Mr. dharris, it is called a conversation. We all have opinions. Some are stronger than others. I get along with everyone. But I am not going to go along and shut up. These forums are here for us to "converse". Apposing opinions are not bad. I take my modeling seriously and enjoy the art of modeling. I can also comment on what I see and I am not asking anyone to agree with me simply for the sake of agreeing. I am stating my argument and opinion.
So dharris. Please go ahead and get along to get along and go play with your trains.
Brian
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 11:13:12 GMT -8
The move toward better detailed models started back in the 60's with Don Dover's Extra 200 South and the big shove came in the 80s and as a result we seen Life Likes P2K models. It was a uphill battle because all the manufacturers said it would be to expensive until a toy train company showed it could be done then it was catch up time with Athearn being the last to board the detail train. Get right down to it we have the best models that's ever been made models and the question just may be are we becoming spoiled? As already been pointed out those are preproduction test models.. There is no difference between modelers after its all said and done. BTW..EMD,GE,Alco FM and the railroads never used model production phases that's pure X2200 South jargon. The best models ever for just model trains? yes, I will agree with that. The best model ever for the plastic model industry. Not true. Partly true, but not true. The AFV modelers have the best models to date to choose from. I follow their progress too. There is a big difference. One person spends hours even months building a model the other does nothing. Yes, it is rudimentary knowledge these days that railroads and manufacturers did not and do not differentiate between phases. Brian
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Post by Brakie on Dec 9, 2016 11:18:25 GMT -8
The point I was trying to make which I pretty much did not. But my point is that the RTR crowd has nearly killed the undecorated market as well as almost obliterated the detail parts market. Those of us that build models still are on life support. Soon to become dinosaurs.
Brian ---------------------------------------------------
I agree about the undecs but,there will always be model builders even in the RTR gang. I built all of my industries on my ISL and my 77/78 era I built the majority of the Athearn and Roundhouse cars. OTOH when I model my '95 era freight cars are the better detailed RTR cars.Still each of those RTR cars was inspected and had KD couplers added.
One more small item..I will not accept anything less then 100% derailment and trouble free operation.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 11:21:45 GMT -8
Brakie: "One more small item..I will not accept anything less then 100% derailment and trouble free operation."
Absolutely nothing wrong with that. I hope to have the same results.
brian
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Post by Brakie on Dec 9, 2016 11:50:49 GMT -8
Brian,I came up in the era of kit building and built my first Penn-Line PRR 2-8-0 when I was 10 years old in '58..Of course my Dad watched and supervised as needed. In early '59 I built my first Hobbytown RS-3 and later Hobbytown drives for my Athearn GP7s.. Fun times and fond memories.
Be that has it may I don't think I would care to return to building locomotive kits or the brass diesels from Alco Models, Hallmark and Train Inc.. I been spoiled with today's beautiful locomotives.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 12:10:37 GMT -8
That was back then though Brakie. When kits were left to the imagination. I had the pleasure of stealing an undecorated GP15-1 from my friend Tom. Building todays models from virgin plastic is a treat.
I'll bring this back to the ScaleTrains SD40-2. There are a LOT of mold parting lines on their detail parts. In virgin plastic, I would take the time to clean all that up. i would then take the time to make sure the fit is perfect and then glue it in place. When the model was done and painted, the fit and finish would result in a museum quality model. No different than what the military modelers do today. They take a virgin undecorated/unbuilt model and turn it into pure gold. I relish the thought of a ScaleTrains undecorated SD40-2 kit. They do not even have to remove the parts from the tree and I would prefer they did not. Take a look at the windows on ST's 40-2. You can see where the assembler twisted them off the sprue. Very ugly looking. It is the MODELER that will take the time and care to remove and dress the parts properly. it would go a long way for ScaleTrains to offer us undecs so modelers can show what these models can really look like.
Put them in a box with bagged parts trees. Every part available so the modeler can choose what model or phase to build.
When they offer undecs. I'll buy as long as they corrected the side frames.
I would like to ask Scaletrains. How much more trouble would it be to tell the factory to take X number of trees off the line before they go to paint? Say they wanted to produce 1000 undecorated kits. The factory pulls off the line 1000 of each tree. Bags them and puts them in a box with a frame/drive train/electronics. Done. Just a thought. Make it perfectly clear that there are no instructions. It is the responsibility of the modeler to understand how to build the model. There are very few modelers that do not understand how to put these things together.
Brian
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Dec 9, 2016 13:28:30 GMT -8
Brian, You didn't say "model building" originally. You said, "an RTR person is not a modeler" and, "There is NOTHING modeling about (RTR)." If you had addressed this as only "model building" than I wouldn't of posted my disagreement. Obviously, buying RTR is not model building, but that doesn't mean the people who buy RTR aren't modelers. As long as they are reproducing the real thing, even as a simulation, then they are modeling. If you don't believe me, take it up with Merriam-Webster.
From M-W.com: Model = "To produce a representation or simulation of."
Note that modeling refers to both; not just the physical object but the act of simulation, too. That means the person that buys all RTR yet simulates a railroad's operations is a modeler. He isn't a model builder, to be sure; but he's still a modeler.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2016 13:41:27 GMT -8
Brian, You didn't say "model building" originally. You said, "an RTR person is not a modeler" and, "There is NOTHING modeling about (RTR)." If you had addressed this as only "model building" than I wouldn't of posted my disagreement. Obviously, buying RTR is not model building, but that doesn't mean the people who buy RTR aren't modelers. As long as they are reproducing the real thing, even as a simulation, then they are modeling. If you don't believe me, take it up with Merriam-Webster. From M-W.com: Model = "To produce a representation or simulation of." Note that modeling refers to both; not just the physical object but the act of simulation, too. That means the person that buys all RTR yet simulates a railroad's operations is a modeler. He isn't a model builder, to be sure; but he's still a modeler. Are you kidding me! If we are going there, a software engineer is a modeler, fashion model is a modeler, A 3D graphic artist is a modeler, an ing manikin is a modeler. , I give up! Brian
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Post by Brakie on Dec 9, 2016 13:53:28 GMT -8
Brian,When I built my industries I used a sprue cutter and then lightly sanded smooth with 500 grit sandpaper or lightly ran my X-Acto knife across the area where the sprue was.
You see modeling comes in many flavors and degrees you want museum quality while I want smooth running detailed locomotives that suits my modeling style. I deplore mindless loop running and prefer switching industries or a nicely built yard.
We are both enjoying the hobby in our preferred method.
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