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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Dec 10, 2016 15:29:25 GMT -8
Brian: "I do understand that all this is banter over pre-production models. We hope these are pre-production models. How many times have pre-production models become production models? I cancelled my order for one a couple weeks ago. I will wait to see what the production model looks like before I dive in. If they fix the errors and tooling and offer undecorated kits, I will be very happy to throw my hobby dollars their way. If they do not fix the errors and tooling, then I will simply plod along with what I already have." "As Shane and myself have mentioned here, on our FB page, and when we spoke at Trainfest recently, these are pre-production models, using first test shots. While we and our toolmaker strive hard for parts to be as perfect as possible right out of the gate, that doesn't always happen. First test shots, no matter how good the R&D and toolmaker are, inevitably have issues. Just the nature of the beast, especially on complex projects.
Part of the process of creating new models involves us, as well as our engineers at the factory, carefully reviewing the parts, test fitting them, and looking for any errors or omissions, fit issues, and revising the tooling to correct them. It is a very involved process, and takes time for revisions to be made, depending upon the revisions needed, as well as other projects that may be in the toolmaker's queue (keep in mind there are other projects that we have in tooling at any given time). Based upon the latest schedule, we expect to get improved shots for our review soon, which should address many of the issues that have been brought up.
Paul" Brian: "ScaleTrains definitely did not put their best foot forward with these photos. They had to know they were going to get hammered for them. I do not know who took the photos, but if ScaleTrains paid for them. They got ripped off." "Our photographer is a very talented individual that is well-known in the industry. From some of the roster shots, at first glance, one would be hard-pressed to tell they are model photos. We have been extremely pleased with his efforts.
Paul (Editorial: I agree with Paul 110%. Ken Johnson is an outstanding modeler, great photographer, and does well at bringing our vision to life. Shane)"Brian" So getting back to the conversation. How to improve this model to be THE quintessential SD40-2 model. Detail Oriented: 1. Add the builders mark to the side frames. 2. Fix the tooling to remove the mold lines. 3. Redo the fan grill photo etch to be multi layer. 4. Photo etch the drop steps with tread plate on them. 5. Use a Kato motor. 6. Offer undecorated kits or the ability to kit a model off your web site. "Points one through four are all items that we have pointed out for revision. As for point 5, we have develop a proprietary motor that performs outstanding. This is the same motor we're using in our Union GTEL that pulled 155 cars at the National Train Show. As we've stated several times, we will offer parts for modelers to build their own SD40-2 (editorial: we're devoting our energy to the development of the model first. Shane)
Paul"Brian: "RTR version: 1. Find out how Atlas does their paintwork and copy that method. 2. Teach your assemblers how to cut parts from the parts tree. 3. Teach your assemblers how to assemble a model "properly". 4. Use a different silver that is not Christmas glitter on your UP truck side frames. 5. Use a Kato motor. 6. Mold longer pins on the handrail stanchions to help them stand up straight. Or slightly oversize the handrails to remove the wave. Or figure out how Atlas does their handrails because they are straight. Or metal spin cast your handrails with dental steel (See Photo). Dental steel does not shrink." "From our experience so far, our factory team does excellent work (see the UP GTELs, 53' containers, Evans 5100 boxcars, TRN 31k tank cars, etc.). While there is always room for improvement, considering the timeline they delivered these samples under, they did a commendable job. Much like we review parts, we review these decorated samples as well, and have communicated with the factory areas to improve in regards to decoration, and fit and finish.
Point 6: Fit and finish of handrails are one of the items we cover in review of parts and decorated samples, and the production models will be improved. And unfortunately, the handrails on some of the samples have taken a beating from travel.
Paul" Brian: "Just a few suggestions: Fire the person who assembled your pre-production samples and Find capable people who can properly assemble your marketing models. Fire the photographer and find someone who has at least a rudimentary knowledge of photography. Don't use a point and shoot camera. Shane, your supposed to be the salesman. These photos are not helping you sell this model." " Again, the factory team that built these samples did an exemplary job considering the time constraints involved.
Our photographer is very talented, has a lot of experience in the industry, and most assuredly does not use "point and shoot" cameras for his work.
Paul" "There is obviously GREAT potential for this model. There are a lot of positive features on this model. Brian" As I mentioned in another post, Paul is unavailable this evening and asked me to post his replies so there is no delay. Paul's comments are in bold. Well... it's Sunday morning at 7:30am in Hong Kong so I'm off to see our toolmaker and factory. We'll be reviewing the second group of roadnames for the SD40-2s. We'll also see an all-new, never-offered-previously HO Scale diesel locomotive we'll be unveiling at the Railroad Hobby Show in West Springfield, MA plus our first N scale freight car announcements. Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Dec 10, 2016 16:12:25 GMT -8
We welcome feedback about any of our models. Unfortunately posting issues on a forum can cause a manufacturer more harm than good. Since our Industry does not rely on reviews like restaurants and hotels, some modelers turn to the forums to help determine whether or not they should purchase a model. If they read negative comments and do not realize the issues were addressed, they may not purchase the model. We have experienced this first-hand. Please contact us directly at Support@ScaleTrains.com with your praises and concerns. Sincerely, Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc. I don't think "issues" will cease to be posted here. So it behooveth manufacturers to have a presence on forums. Which they certainly can and do, as you are demonstrating. You're here. Tangent is here. Athearn is here. Bowser is here. Canon is here. Note, also, that praise is delivered here, too. And ScaleTrains has received quite a bit. Ed
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2016 17:28:24 GMT -8
I am also glad they are going to make their parts available...as those MU hoses look great, too!
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Post by dharris on Dec 10, 2016 17:40:51 GMT -8
We welcome feedback about any of our models. Unfortunately posting issues on a forum can cause a manufacturer more harm than good. Since our Industry does not rely on reviews like restaurants and hotels, some modelers turn to the forums to help determine whether or not they should purchase a model. If they read negative comments and do not realize the issues were addressed, they may not purchase the model. We have experienced this first-hand. Please contact us directly at Support@ScaleTrains.com with your praises and concerns. Sincerely, Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc. I don't think "issues" will cease to be posted here. So it behooveth manufacturers to have a presence on forums. Which they certainly can and do, as you are demonstrating. You're here. Tangent is here. Athearn is here. Bowser is here. Canon is here. Note, also, that praise is delivered here, too. And ScaleTrains has received quite a bit. Ed Scaletrains has probably received quite a bit or orders from being here and posting interesting comments. I have quite a few of their products and all are excellent. I also met them in Indianapolis and found them pleasant and good people. I wish them well.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 10, 2016 18:24:28 GMT -8
Thank you Shane and ScaleTrains for coming here and participating in this discussion. All we can can do is wait and see when the production model arrives.
Best wishes to you and your team.
Brian
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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Dec 11, 2016 0:32:08 GMT -8
We welcome feedback about any of our models. Unfortunately posting issues on a forum can cause a manufacturer more harm than good. Since our Industry does not rely on reviews like restaurants and hotels, some modelers turn to the forums to help determine whether or not they should purchase a model. If they read negative comments and do not realize the issues were addressed, they may not purchase the model. We have experienced this first-hand. Please contact us directly at Support@ScaleTrains.com with your praises and concerns. I don't think "issues" will cease to be posted here. So it behooveth manufacturers to have a presence on forums. Which they certainly can and do, as you are demonstrating. You're here. Tangent is here. Athearn is here. Bowser is here. Canon is here. Note, also, that praise is delivered here, too. And ScaleTrains has received quite a bit. Ed Ed, In today's digital world, modeler's can share their thoughts about models in a variety of ways. In addition to phone calls, company mailboxes like Support@ScaleTrains.com, e-mails to us individually, Facebook, YouTube, etc., we read the Atlas Rescue Forum, Trainorders, Railwire, "Model Railroader" forum, "Model Railroad Hobbyist" forum, dedicated modeler Facebook groups, e-mail lists, and more as time allows. All of these contact points are important. However, we're a small team and spending time in the digital world is time away from our other responsibilities. To ensure we address a concern about a model, it's always best to contact us directly. Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc.
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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Dec 11, 2016 0:35:57 GMT -8
Thank you Shane and ScaleTrains for coming here and participating in this discussion. All we can can do is wait and see when the production model arrives. Best wishes to you and your team. Brian You're welcome Brian. Like you, our desire is to create the best models possible. I visited our toolmaker earlier today and all of the tooling revisions for the SD40-2 have just been completed. They will be doing new part test shots before the end of the year and we will post photos once we receive them. Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc.
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Post by fr8kar on Dec 11, 2016 4:43:16 GMT -8
It may be insane to you...but it's been on models since the 1980's...no excuse to not be on there. There are lesser models out there with the correct raised lettering and such... And, they said they will be putting it on the trucks. All I'm saying is you don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Even if it wasn't going to be fixed, I don't see how you could discount everything else that's good about the model over something that could be modeled by a motivated modeler. It's like refusing to buy the Exactrail Evans 4780 because the "PULL HERE" decal isn't lined up with the pulling loop. Ideally, every issue is addressed, but I would rather fix the things that get missed than do without while waiting for a mythical perfect model.
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Post by Brakie on Dec 11, 2016 6:46:10 GMT -8
Shane,I notice the predrilled holes in the photos of your operator SD40-2 and I wanted to thank you for that. Any idea when those beauties will hit the shelf?
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Post by alcors32 on Dec 11, 2016 7:25:58 GMT -8
To Shane, Paul, Mike and Joe and all the team members at ScaleTrains, In regard to some of the past postings on the SD40-2 models. I have just purchased/reserved 2 ScaleTrains Burlington Northern SD40-2 models w/sound to my already purchased/reserved 4 Southern units w/sound. Thank you very much for the work, effort and time you have all put into this and other models. It is with great pleasure that I can support ScaleTrains and hope to do so for many years to come. Gerhard Anderson
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Post by railmodeltroy14 on Dec 11, 2016 8:10:42 GMT -8
Shane:
Thanks to Scale Trains for responding very professionally to the unwarranted attacks on your SD-40-2 project considering the amount of time and money that obviously has been invested at this point.
I am a professional photographer and responsible for creating images of products of all shapes and sizes, in various stages of finish and the photos you posted were excellent and not taken with a cell phone camera or by someone without any skills.
When I first viewed them, they did look real so the lighting was perfect.
Keep up the great work and I am waiting for some CSX Dash-3's.
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Post by bnsf971 on Dec 11, 2016 9:08:27 GMT -8
Shane,I notice the predrilled holes in the photos of your operator SD40-2 and I wanted to thank you for that. Any idea when those beauties will hit the shelf? And arguably as importantly, when are the detail kits going to be available?
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Post by Brakie on Dec 11, 2016 9:25:13 GMT -8
Shane,I notice the predrilled holes in the photos of your operator SD40-2 and I wanted to thank you for that. Any idea when those beauties will hit the shelf? And arguably as importantly, when are the detail kits going to be available? True dat but, there are other means of getting detail parts if the need arises but,in the mean time let's put those SD40-2s to work. I'm currently detailing a Athearn BB SW7 and so far it has a Kato NW2 bell, Detail Associates window glass, nickel silver wheels and Atlas 3 chime horns.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 8:25:10 GMT -8
I agree with Brian, Model Building, and Operations are two completely different fields. Some people build, some operate, some both. Modeling railroad operations is modeling. Models don't have to be physical objects. I spent years doing modeling for prototype railroads & transit systems without using a physical model.
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Post by cf7 on Dec 12, 2016 9:42:31 GMT -8
It looks like Brian and Tom (joppasub) have both checked out. This discussion probably won't be far behind.
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Post by TBird1958 on Dec 12, 2016 10:01:14 GMT -8
That's a shame, they're obviously passionate modelers and I enjoy their viewpoint.
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Post by fr8kar on Dec 12, 2016 10:05:14 GMT -8
That's a shame, they're obviously passionate modelers and I enjoy their viewpoint. I couldn't agree more.
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Post by roadkill on Dec 12, 2016 10:11:26 GMT -8
That's a shame, they're obviously passionate modelers and I enjoy their viewpoint. Me too, and TBQH it [censored] me off a bit. Something tells me there's more to it than the both of them just leaving on their own.
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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Dec 12, 2016 12:21:52 GMT -8
Shane,I notice the predrilled holes in the photos of your operator SD40-2 and I wanted to thank you for that. Any idea when those beauties will hit the shelf? You're welcome Larry. We expect delivery in late Spring. Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc.
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Post by Donnell Wells on Dec 12, 2016 12:21:52 GMT -8
That's a shame, they're obviously passionate modelers and I enjoy their viewpoint. Me too, and TBQH it [censored] me off a bit. Something tells me there's more to it than the both of them just leaving on their own. Roadkill, before I respond to your comment in full, I would like to know what you were/are implying.
Donnell
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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Dec 12, 2016 12:23:30 GMT -8
Shane,I notice the predrilled holes in the photos of your operator SD40-2 and I wanted to thank you for that. Any idea when those beauties will hit the shelf? And arguably as importantly, when are the detail kits going to be available? bnsf971, The Operator SD04-2 detail kits will arrive with the locomotives in late Spring. Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc.
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Post by ScaleTrains.com on Dec 12, 2016 12:33:18 GMT -8
That's a shame, they're obviously passionate modelers and I enjoy their viewpoint. Me too, and TBQH it [censored] me off a bit. Something tells me there's more to it than the both of them just leaving on their own. Roger, Brian and I have exchanged e-mails about this thread. We did NOT ask or tell him not to participate or share his thoughts. Brian felt leaving the conversation was best and it's his decision whether he wants to share why publicly. We respect Brian and his modeling talent. Long before this thread, he shared feedback with us about the SD40-2 to help ensure we create the most accurate model possible. We truly appreciate his input. Thom is also a top-notch modeler and is helping us with several projects we're developing. As you can see from Thom's post two days ago, he's supportive of our efforts as well. Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc.
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Post by Christian on Dec 12, 2016 12:35:50 GMT -8
Issue answered. Contents of this post deleted by me.
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Post by SD90 on Dec 12, 2016 12:38:52 GMT -8
Any idea the price? What will come in the detail kit? I'm thinking of getting the operator SD40-2's as well. And arguably as importantly, when are the detail kits going to be available? bnsf971, The Operator SD04-2 detail kits will arrive with the locomotives in late Spring. Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc.
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Dec 12, 2016 13:08:19 GMT -8
Both Brian and Tom removed themselves from the Forum. If in doubt you can look at Brian's Facebook post on the subject.
I look forward to when Scale Trains produces a Mopac SD40-2. I would imagine with the few issues brought up on the forum, Scale Trains will make the fixes and the model will be what everyone is looking for.
I am interested in the other 9-10 projects coming up - with one of them being the new locomotive that hasn't been produced before announced next month.
For locomotives I'd like to see, but doesn't fit the description: 1. SDL39 - produced both in brass and resin 2. GP28 - produced in brass 3. B23-7 - produced both by Bachman and Atlas and brass I believe
So my guess would be something very modern.
For freight cars I'll beat my drum for the ACF 4460 covered hopper - I'll even take an additional ACF 4600 even though Athearn has announced it.
Can always use more 70s era general service tank cars.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 12, 2016 16:02:23 GMT -8
Look guys...I got irked about a few posts that were obviously not directed at me...sometimes, people can't always get "intent" from the keyboard...and I took that into consideration.
But, geeze Louise...I only want ScaleTrains to succeed to the highest degree. Without Shane and Mike, I'd have no Genesis GP15-1, GP38-2, or GP50. They're very important to me in my future in the hobby. I work with several manufacturers when possible. I am working on several projects now...as Shane said.
So, please understand that when you read my comments...and cannot see "where I'm coming from".
I appreciate the kind words on here from you guys.
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Post by dharris on Dec 12, 2016 16:18:52 GMT -8
Shane,I notice the predrilled holes in the photos of your operator SD40-2 and I wanted to thank you for that. Any idea when those beauties will hit the shelf? You're welcome Larry. We expect delivery in late Spring. Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc. Shane, I read somewhere there was talk of a second release after Trainfest. Was that said or am I dreaming it? Thank you
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Post by markfj on Dec 12, 2016 18:08:25 GMT -8
You're welcome Larry. We expect delivery in late Spring. Shane Shane Wilson President ScaleTrains.com, Inc. Shane, I read somewhere there was talk of a second release after Trainfest. Was that said or am I dreaming it? Thank you Shane, if there will be a second run, can you tip your hand on future paint schemes or is that still to be determined? The model looks great! Thanks, Mark
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Post by Donnell Wells on Dec 12, 2016 21:15:24 GMT -8
Shane, I read somewhere there was talk of a second release after Trainfest. Was that said or am I dreaming it? Thank you Shane, if there will be a second run, can you tip your hand on future paint schemes or is that still to be determined? The model looks great! Thanks, Mark Well, I'm definitely in for a few BN units. The only other road I'm really interested in is the C&NW!
Donnell
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Post by roadkill on Dec 13, 2016 10:03:22 GMT -8
Me too, and TBQH it [censored] me off a bit. Something tells me there's more to it than the both of them just leaving on their own. Roadkill, before I respond to your comment in full, I would like to know what you were/are implying.
Donnell Not saying you'd drop the banhammer for no reason but you have to admit this seems a bit fishy. Two opinionated posters with unpopular opinions disappear? Wouldn't be the first time in internet forum history. If I'm wrong then I apologize.
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