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Post by westerntrains on Nov 22, 2019 16:16:00 GMT -8
I think the overwhelming theme of this thread is "shut up, we don't want to hear about the problems". It was first brought up a freaking month ago. We've all heard it to death already. It's also been explained to death why they chose to do what they did. You don't have to like it, but what's done is done. I'm frankly sick of hearing about it and I know I'm not alone. IMO this thread never needed to be started, and I would have liked to see it get locked in the first couple pages when it became clear this is where we were headed. But then again, someone probably would've just started a new one, because apparently this is what we do now. If your tired of this discussion, don't read the posts, move on, there is nothing for you here. Some of us not being fanboys want to know what's right and what's wrong any given model. Some us care, you don't I guess. If your happy with a flawed model, then buy a few and be well. I think they will look great running around your Christmas tree with the Tyco GP-20 and F-7. To each his own I guess.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 22, 2019 16:20:49 GMT -8
So anyways, about those stepwells.....
Bwahahaha
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 16:24:08 GMT -8
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Post by stevewoodward on Nov 22, 2019 16:40:22 GMT -8
I seldom post on here, but it looks good for “as delivered” Conrail blue. Thanks Ian.
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Post by carrman on Nov 22, 2019 16:56:03 GMT -8
I think the overwhelming theme of this thread is "shut up, we don't want to hear about the problems". It was first brought up a freaking month ago. We've all heard it to death already. It's also been explained to death why they chose to do what they did. You don't have to like it, but what's done is done. I'm frankly sick of hearing about it and I know I'm not alone. IMO this thread never needed to be started, and I would have liked to see it get locked in the first couple pages when it became clear this is where we were headed. But then again, someone probably would've just started a new one, because apparently this is what we do now. But you're not a moderator, and its not up to you what gets locked or talked about. If you dont like a thread, why comment?
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Post by Judge Doom on Nov 22, 2019 17:00:36 GMT -8
I actually agree with you, to an extent. Since this is a teachable moment, a 95-98% accurate model should also be marketed, priced, and sold as the 95-98% solution that it represents. Do that and I think forum chatter like this would never really exist. I'd wager that I, and every other person who questions the accuracy of a model train, would not be so inclined to scrutinize the final product if the final product came from the "manufacturer who provides 95% of what everyone wanted". I likely wouldn't even be a customer for much of it. There is a huge elephant in the room, however. It is baffling that throughout this entire "discussion" about how neurotic and damaging rivet counters are for this hobby, the biggest self-proclaimed rivet counter (Rapido itself) has been exempted from the scorn and derision heaped upon the consumers who also value a high level of fidelity to the prototype. What is Rapido's reputation and approach to the hobby built on, if not excellence? To paraphrase Ricky Bobby, Rapido usually wakes up and pisses excellence. Generic models at the 95% level? No...no, not at all. Generic is what a large part of the MR hobby is, and has been, all about. No, Rapido has not become a fixture in this hobby by claiming their reason for existence is to make models that are "close enough". It is disingenuous to say otherwise, and you would actually be in direct disagreement with Rapido by saying so. So, yes, I have been a long time Rapido customer and likely will be as long as they stick to their stated purpose, which is releasing models that push the boundaries of what is possible in terms of accuracy and detail. When a model they produce is critically examined against absolute claims of accuracy, understand that the very exercise of critiquing the product is demanded by Rapido themselves, in some cases literally ('turn our models over, examine the obscene detail, and compare our stuff to every other model on the market, which will now pale in comparison'). Companies like Rapido will not get better without that type of challenge from consumers. Few companies challenge their consumers to try and find -any- faults with their products more than Rapido has literally done over the years, so let's not lose our minds when people actually point these things out. It should ultimately make things better, not worse. -Mike (who has his four CSX/SBD B36-7 "abominations" enroute) It's no secret Rapido has made foobies for years, straight from Day One. A lot of their Super Continental line passenger cars are based on Canadian (usually CN/VIA) prototypes, and painted as stand-ins for US roads that had similar looking cars. They even painted some as CP stand-ins for different cars! if I turn over a highly detailed and accurate VIA passenger car painted UP, it's still going to be inaccurate for what it's painted to represent. Same with their CP Angus caboose painted in Conrail, CSX or UP, who never owned any, but had their models priced the same as "accurate" CP ones with no disclaimers on the box to warn or inform modelers what they were buying. But at the end of the day, that helps pay their bills and fund new tooling, which is why many American manufacturers never have hesitated to offer inaccurate US prototypes in Canadian paint schemes. Discount pricing based on the level of accuracy of one scheme or the other would be a wash, as the labour and manufacturing costs would still be identical, and the modelers who buy the 99.9999% accurate ones would still b**** and moan, now about being punished because they're rivet counters, discriminated against, etc when the foobie-buyers get a discount on almost the exact same model in a different livery that's not even as accurate.
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Post by cemr5396 on Nov 22, 2019 17:02:38 GMT -8
If your tired of this discussion, don't read the posts, move on, there is nothing for you here. Some of us not being fanboys want to know what's right and what's wrong any given model. Some us care, you don't I guess. If your happy with a flawed model, then buy a few and be well. I think they will look great running around your Christmas tree with the Tyco GP-20 and F-7. To each his own I guess. This is literally the EXACT crap I'm sick of seeing here. Just because I'm tired of this topic being beaten to death for a month somehow means I don't care at all and just sit there running my crap models around a tree. Nevermind the fact that I spend most of my free time building and working on models, and have been quite involved here in the past in discussions about mistakes that were made, and getting them fixed before the models came out, if at all possible (see: Athearn CP GMD GP38-2, Atlas MultiMax). The difference between those threads and this one? They were civil, and productive. I can't really say this one is either of those. But apparently none of that counts any more.
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Post by NS4122 on Nov 22, 2019 17:04:23 GMT -8
New name, same troll. Welcome back atsfan. If your tired of this discussion, don't read the posts, move on, there is nothing for you here. Some of us not being fanboys want to know what's right and what's wrong any given model. Some us care, you don't I guess. If your happy with a flawed model, then buy a few and be well. I think they will look great running around your Christmas tree with the Tyco GP-20 and F-7. To each his own I guess.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 22, 2019 17:04:33 GMT -8
Um,guys? The stepwells?
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Post by railfans on Nov 22, 2019 17:07:15 GMT -8
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Post by pboilermaker on Nov 22, 2019 17:32:04 GMT -8
I'll have stepwell measurements/photos and nose radii measurements by the end of the weekend, hopefully, and we can continue to discuss what is necessary to tweak these things to match CSX (or confirm why the nose might look off). Last chance..anything else I should check? If 7087 is there, I'll check the stepwells on her, too. If we ever see a high quality C30-7, I bet the friggin stepwells still won't match for CSX.
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Post by drsvelte on Nov 22, 2019 17:45:25 GMT -8
Um, we know about the stepwells. Like Six Ways from Sunday about the stepwells. 🤢
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Post by delta767332er on Nov 22, 2019 17:57:11 GMT -8
......If we ever see a high quality C30-7, I bet the friggin stepwells still won't match for CSX. I’ll totally take that bet. When we get it, they’ll be correct. Well, there’s a qualification, but I’ll just stick with hard stop for now.
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Post by westerntrains on Nov 22, 2019 18:01:06 GMT -8
New name, same troll. Welcome back atsfan. If your tired of this discussion, don't read the posts, move on, there is nothing for you here. Some of us not being fanboys want to know what's right and what's wrong any given model. Some us care, you don't I guess. If your happy with a flawed model, then buy a few and be well. I think they will look great running around your Christmas tree with the Tyco GP-20 and F-7. To each his own I guess. Please don't interrupt, men are talking. Please go back to the kitchen with the other childern. Were discussing scale trains, not your playskool Thomas the tank.
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Post by pboilermaker on Nov 22, 2019 18:15:17 GMT -8
It's no secret Rapido has made foobies for years, straight from Day One. A lot of their Super Continental line passenger cars are based on Canadian (usually CN/VIA) prototypes, and painted as stand-ins for US roads that had similar looking cars. They even painted some as CP stand-ins for different cars! if I turn over a highly detailed and accurate VIA passenger car painted UP, it's still going to be inaccurate for what it's painted to represent. Same with their CP Angus caboose painted in Conrail, CSX or UP, who never owned any, but had their models priced the same as "accurate" CP ones with no disclaimers on the box to warn or inform modelers what they were buying. But at the end of the day, that helps pay their bills and fund new tooling, which is why many American manufacturers never have hesitated to offer inaccurate US prototypes in Canadian paint schemes. Exactly why I steered clear of the obvious foobies, as I have with every other manufacturer. I think you can agree, while the foobies were never labeled as such, they were also never aggressively marketed as "100% accurate" for the foobie roads. As Rapido got better over time, the claims of accuracy, detail, and quality became the primary marketing tool. You have to back that up, or you lose integrity as a manufacturer. Ahem...Arrowhead, anyone? They're still getting eviscerated on this forum over the box the model comes in. Recall Rapido bragging about the subtly contoured nose of their FA2, not so modestly declaring all previous attempts at this level of accuracy obsolete,all due to the alleged hyper-accuracy of a 3D-scan from a prototype and the painstaking engineering that went into development. Bold move trashing literally every other previous attempt as less accurate, but exciting for Alco fans who never knew what they never knew after all of these years putting up with inferior facsimiles. Same thing with the New Look Bus and its subtly curved sides, never before recreated in any scale. That might be true...hey, the consumer wins again! RDC...leap of faith...best ever, in any scale. Santa Fe master race even got their specially packaged combo. Did anyone actually bash Rapido for pushing the envelope? Were there cries from sensitive model railroaders demanding that Rapido dial the accuracy back a bit? Tone down the bold claims in pre-order announcements? Stop 'viciously attacking' the products from other manufacturers? I must have missed the backlash. Eh, Rapido tried that with the CN/BCOL Dash 8. Budget pricing, reduced detailing, accuracy compromises, etc. It was all clearly stated up front. While that experiment failed as a new path forward (consumers wanted that sweet, sweet detail and out of box accuracy), nobody gnashed teeth over why the budget line had these "issues". It was understood. Look at STs Operator line as an example. Who has taken a dial caliper to an Atlas Trainman offering and cluttered forums with rivet-counter bitching and moaning over accuracy? Nobody but the soft-headed, if at all. Regardless, Rapido, the obnoxiously cocky rivet counters that they are, dared everyone to scrutinize the B36-7, as they have with many other releases. Pre-order a 100% accurate model train at premium prices. Some of us did, and we found out that nothing is ever perfect, far from it. So, we're going to discuss how 100% accurate turned into ~95% accurate and how to tweak what we expected to have when we opened the box. I hope Rapido uses the B36-7 lessons learned to improve future offerings as well as their response to customers with legitimate concerns. Now, about fixing the stepwells...and jumping off piers.
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Post by pboilermaker on Nov 22, 2019 18:34:11 GMT -8
......If we ever see a high quality C30-7, I bet the friggin stepwells still won't match for CSX. I’ll totally take that bet. When we get it, they’ll be correct. Well, there’s a qualification, but I’ll just stick with hard stop for now.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Nov 22, 2019 19:03:35 GMT -8
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Post by pboilermaker on Nov 22, 2019 19:09:51 GMT -8
Just noticed the TTI model has class light blanking plates instead of the smooth nose on the prototype...another error. Nice paint, though.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 19:27:43 GMT -8
Look there is a point of diminishing returns. It is impossible to model each and every single variation 100% dead nuts correct. The prototype diesel manufacturers actually made running changes during production. There are actually more "phases" of second generation diesels than the popular sources, and even gasp--you guys--have ever identified. The manufacturers simply can't cover every variation. Deal with it or go buy some other high-end model.
If you admitted rivet counters would take a second look at oh, I don't know, how about the Atlas C-420, which everybody agrees is one of their "best" models ever, you will find more to your way of thinking "egregious" compromises that they made. Likewise on many other models. I'm not singling out Atlas. There are even variations that people don't know about because they didn't look hard enough. I can't get into the details or other manufacturers will actually get flamed. Variations I've been asked to keep to myself, that were identified during model production.
Sometimes 98% has to be good enough. Development budgets are not unlimited.
Jack I actually agree with you, to an extent. Since this is a teachable moment, a 95-98% accurate model should also be marketed, priced, and sold as the 95-98% solution that it represents. Do that and I think forum chatter like this would never really exist. I'd wager that I, and every other person who questions the accuracy of a model train, would not be so inclined to scrutinize the final product if the final product came from the "manufacturer who provides 95% of what everyone wanted". I likely wouldn't even be a customer for much of it. There is a huge elephant in the room, however. It is baffling that throughout this entire "discussion" about how neurotic and damaging rivet counters are for this hobby, the biggest self-proclaimed rivet counter (Rapido itself) has been exempted from the scorn and derision heaped upon the consumers who also value a high level of fidelity to the prototype. What is Rapido's reputation and approach to the hobby built on, if not excellence? To paraphrase Ricky Bobby, Rapido usually wakes up and pisses excellence. Generic models at the 95% level? No...no, not at all. Generic is what a large part of the MR hobby is, and has been, all about. No, Rapido has not become a fixture in this hobby by claiming their reason for existence is to make models that are "close enough". It is disingenuous to say otherwise, and you would actually be in direct disagreement with Rapido by saying so. So, yes, I have been a long time Rapido customer and likely will be as long as they stick to their stated purpose, which is releasing models that push the boundaries of what is possible in terms of accuracy and detail. When a model they produce is critically examined against absolute claims of accuracy, understand that the very exercise of critiquing the product is demanded by Rapido themselves, in some cases literally ('turn our models over, examine the obscene detail, and compare our stuff to every other model on the market, which will now pale in comparison'). Companies like Rapido will not get better without that type of challenge from consumers. Few companies challenge their consumers to try and find -any- faults with their products more than Rapido has literally done over the years, so let's not lose our minds when people actually point these things out. It should ultimately make things better, not worse. -Mike (who has his four CSX/SBD B36-7 "abominations" enroute) Hey Mike-- I never said we shouldn't discuss and critique models on these forums. I am saying that both in recent topics like this one, and in the past, people tend to cross the line and forget that the manufacturers are doing the best they can, and we then make outlandish statements about how horrible the product XYZ may be, when in reality it's a relatively minute detail that "real modelers" with "real skills" should be able to fix if they find the need to. I want perfection too. To attempt to achieve it, I've actually got a pro painter doing a brass model for me now, the way I want it, at only $500 for the paint and lighting. At the same time, I buy the best of the same models I can possibly get in plastic. Sheesh--I remember when Athearn first introduced the blue box GP38-2, still with the metal handrails, and many of us modelers at that time thought we had died and gone to heaven. Rapido likes to use a lot of hyperbole in their advertising, and I actually agree it is unfortunate in this instance the advertising appears to have misled some into buying a less than 100% model...Also, in engineering that kind of thing happens all the time when the marketing department fails to clearly communicate with the project manager. Maybe, just maybe, in this instance since the guy left, some information fell through the cracks and/or the marketing was a bit over-zealous. Perhaps they will learn a lesson. Price point? For arguably 95% or 98% versus some people's idea of 100%. That is a tough one and there's no good answer there. The final price is most likely determined by how many they were able to pre-sell. It is what it is. They never seem to go down. Jack
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 22, 2019 19:39:05 GMT -8
......If we ever see a high quality C30-7, I bet the friggin stepwells still won't match for CSX. I’ll totally take that bet. When we get it, they’ll be correct. Well, there’s a qualification, but I’ll just stick with hard stop for now. I bet I know who it is.....how do I put this creatively? Banna will detect an air of arrogance around it and won’t be buying any? Lol.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 22, 2019 19:41:33 GMT -8
That cab misalignment on 5809 looks pretty rough.
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Post by NS4122 on Nov 22, 2019 20:11:59 GMT -8
ATSFAN, Thanks for confirming what I suspected. I'm not sure why you're involved in this discussion since you don't have ANY trains. New name, same troll. Welcome back atsfan. Please don't interrupt, men are talking. Please go back to the kitchen with the other childern. Were discussing scale trains, not your playskool Thomas the tank.
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Post by slowfreight on Nov 22, 2019 21:24:05 GMT -8
I gave my thought on that. As I sit here at my workbench butchering a 25-year-old Walthers car so I can finish it before Rapido's hit the market....
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Post by westerntrains on Nov 22, 2019 21:46:11 GMT -8
ATSFAN, Thanks for confirming what I suspected. I'm not sure why you're involved in this discussion since you don't have ANY trains. Please don't interrupt, men are talking. Please go back to the kitchen with the other childern. Were discussing scale trains, not your playskool Thomas the tank. If you don't have anything to add to the conversation, please refrain from making a fool of yourself.
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Post by bnsf971 on Nov 23, 2019 4:35:56 GMT -8
Yeah, yeah. Hang on, we've got to flame each other some more, first. We'll get back to them shortly.
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Post by sd80mac on Nov 23, 2019 6:11:34 GMT -8
ATSFAN, Thanks for confirming what I suspected. I'm not sure why you're involved in this discussion since you don't have ANY trains. If you don't have anything to add to the conversation, please refrain from making a fool of yourself. Pot calling the kettle black?
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Post by nstophat on Nov 23, 2019 7:20:20 GMT -8
That cab misalignment on 5809 looks pretty rough. Same on the TTI unit. Hope this isn't a trend.
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Post by westerntrains on Nov 23, 2019 8:33:50 GMT -8
If you don't have anything to add to the conversation, please refrain from making a fool of yourself. Pot calling the kettle black? Yes. But on this forum it's par for the course. I have been accused being a MTH schill, now I'm being accused of being a reincarnation of someone else. When talking about some manufactures, the fanboys want everyone to be quiet and not say anything bad. Hard not to slip down to their level of childness. Hard to fight stupied, stupied always wins. Sometimes Im as stupied as the others. I think it's time to give this board a rest and do some modeling or go to my club and run trains.
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Post by peoriaman on Nov 23, 2019 13:08:00 GMT -8
I only come here anymore to see how the flame fests are coming along. This one does not disappoint! As to the B36-7:
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Post by fr8kar on Nov 23, 2019 17:15:57 GMT -8
As to the B36-7: I already rolled my own last year. Just need to finish the handrails. If anyone wants to get rid of their incorrect Rapido FB-2 sideframes after the replacements arrive, PM me. I'm positive they're better than the Smokey Valley sideframes I used.
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