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Post by csx3305 on Nov 22, 2019 6:27:18 GMT -8
Let's see if I get this right: We now have several pages of complaints, ahem statements, of Rapido's nose now being allegedly "incorrectly" contoured, yet I fail to see any measurements of prototype or model to actually prove that, and you all are opining based upon photos of now well-used, dented, beat up originals, that could even have been repaired or otherwise altered since new? Bloody brilliant, I say!!! And still what reads as continual whining about a little tiny 1 mm x 2 mm stepwell variation, as someone clearly stated above? Such calm and reasoned, rational discussion. Sure, right. Jack P.S. I don't have a dog in this fight. I really don't care about GE's or southeastern railroads. But yet you still felt it necessary to throw some gasoline on...
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Post by carrman on Nov 22, 2019 6:42:27 GMT -8
Why don’t you just get “Rapido is perfect” tattooed on your forehead and get it over with? That's genius!!! I'll put it right in line after I get my giant "TRIGGERING THE CSX B36 FANBOIS" tattoo on my rumpcheeks! Oh BTW, did you know they got the SP UDE light on the RS11's too large??? Yes, really!!! And I'm surprised nobody caught this one BIG inaccuracy on ALL of the Rapido products....their couplers are just TOO LARGE and OVERSIZED!!!!! How could they miss this big glaring inaccuracy, did they not 3D-scan the couplers too???! The insanity of it all. The sheer lunacy Rapido thinks they can get away with at our expense. And another good enougher is heard from. Dave
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 7:13:36 GMT -8
I think we're done here.
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Post by middledivision on Nov 22, 2019 7:27:08 GMT -8
^^^ Agreed. Can't we get back to box design and data discussion?
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Post by NS4122 on Nov 22, 2019 7:55:31 GMT -8
Dave You make it sound like someone who isn't an extreme rivet counter is some sort of low life form that is to be despised and ridiculed. Is it really a bad thing that someone would be satisfied with a model that captures the look of the prototype but lacks a few details? Just because the model isn't up to your lofty standards doesn't mean those that find it acceptable should be looked down upon or insulted. And another good enougher is heard from. Dave
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 22, 2019 8:05:25 GMT -8
LOL. Good enoughers being ostracized. I guess we are just gonna ignore or take as a given the seething dislike towards ‘rivet counters’ that shows itself at least once a week. To the point that people are run out on a rail.
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Post by middledivision on Nov 22, 2019 8:11:56 GMT -8
At least they're not trucked out.
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Post by Judge Doom on Nov 22, 2019 8:21:38 GMT -8
And another good enougher is heard from. Dave You forgot to remind us all again that the UDE light on the SP RS11 is oversized (!!??!!), and how you brought up this great injustice to Rapido on their Facebook page, only for them to blow you off with a perfectly rational explanation that you refuse to accept, because you thought their reply was mean to your exquisite rivet-counting tastes. Hey, I'll let you in on a little secret...I rivet count too, and manufacturers are willing to listen to you and make corrections if you're not a hard-nosed "It has to be my way OR ELSE" pompus rivet counter about things. We've already seen one self-destruct his reputation publicly on this board by doing just that.
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Post by NS4122 on Nov 22, 2019 8:44:45 GMT -8
It's not the rivet counting that is disturbing but rather the repetitive jerk like rants of certain "rivet counters" They just can't get over the fact that not everyone is on board with their point of view.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 22, 2019 9:06:41 GMT -8
Once the Honorable Judge details his ties and/or involvement with Rapido as a company, then we’ll be done here.
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Post by carrman on Nov 22, 2019 9:16:12 GMT -8
Dave You make it sound like someone who isn't an extreme rivet counter is some sort of low life form that is to be despised and ridiculed. Is it really a bad thing that someone would be satisfied with a model that captures the look of the prototype but lacks a few details? Just because the model isn't up to your lofty standards doesn't mean those that find it acceptable should be looked down upon or insulted. And another good enougher is heard from. Dave I'm tired of the good enoughers ostracizing those who point out the flaws, like we should just spend stupid amounts of money and be happy about the mistakes. And the excuse about the Mars lights was pure BS. Dave
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Post by Judge Doom on Nov 22, 2019 9:42:23 GMT -8
Once the Honorable Judge details his ties and/or involvement with Rapido as a company, then we’ll be done here. Tin-foil hats on folks, we're back to the Rapido Russian Bot Farm conspiracy theory. I'll give you a hint: it's not hard being a satisfied Rapido customer to actually say something good about their products and the efforts they go to to try to make modelers happy, even those who are perpetually enraged when things aren't obsessive-compulsive-perfect, Mister Random Locomotive Number. Hold on there, how do we know you're not a competitor of Rapido, trying to make their B36-7 look bad to sabotage their reputation. You seem to be very interested in finding everything you can to do that, from claims of false advertising of the steps, to inaccurate bolster spacing accusations, to inaccurate 3D-scanned nose profiles. What next, are the window panes in the cab not flush enough to the windshield wipers? I'm tired of the good enoughers ostracizing those who point out the flaws, like we should just spend stupid amounts of money and be happy about the mistakes. And the excuse about the Mars lights was pure BS. Dave Others have felt the exact same way, and that's what caused many of them to get up, get out there, and start their own model-manufacturing companies. And inevitably they run into the same kinds of tooling limitations, design compromises, and cost overrun concerns, and start to see things from the other side. Even the successful ones. They find out it's never as easy as they think it is on the sidelines, and there will always be that group who takes pleasure at throwing stones at everyone from their own glass house.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 22, 2019 10:19:35 GMT -8
Nobody else makes a B36-7, you dope.
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Post by Judge Doom on Nov 22, 2019 10:39:07 GMT -8
Nobody else makes a B36-7, you dope. And I didn't say anyone else did. You don't have to make the same product to try to tarnish your competition's reputation in the same market. Maybe one views the Rapido PA or F40 as a threat to their own PA or F40, so tries to pile-on with the anti-Rapido B-boat rhetoric in order to diminish their overall reputation and lure customers away from their offerings to your own.
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Post by csx3305 on Nov 22, 2019 12:33:30 GMT -8
So you go from painting me as a paranoid conspiricacy theorist multiple times to positing a conspiracy theory so firmly rooted in jackassery that I’m not even going to counter it with a sincere rebuttal.
Mind-boggling.
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Post by sd80mac on Nov 22, 2019 12:45:56 GMT -8
We get it, you hate Rapido. Let the rest of them fan boy in peace.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Nov 22, 2019 12:54:34 GMT -8
When will enough be enough? Grow up, agree to disagree and take the pre-teen behavior and give it a rest.
What is, is, this buffoonery and I can insult and name call the best is really childish, should be embarrassing to any adults left here engaging in it.
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Post by slowfreight on Nov 22, 2019 12:54:59 GMT -8
Ok...back on topic.
I finally took the time to puzzle out the differences in the step wells. Yes, the bottom step on the CSX unit shoud be recessed further into the step well just like the middle steps. Considering the modeling work I *wouldn't* have to do if I needed 5-6 of these, It's a bit of a pain but doable to set the one step further in, trim the front of the pilot face, and flatten the flare. Times 4. On my whole fleet. But by the second unit I would have the bugs worked out. I'm more worried about GP7 modeling if it's gone from the 4-step to the 5-step version (that was a variation, right?), BUT...here's a learning point for the future for Rapido:
IFF they had caught the variation in the CAD stages, conceivably one could tool a slightly longer lip to hold the bottom step and use an etching that could be broken free. In that case, a modeler could trim the plastic and recess the step further back without requiring Rapido to tool multiple versions of the sill. It seems a fair compromise for those of us who count rivets. Always easier to remove material than add.
So if you want a 95% model for a CSX B36-7, here it is. If this is key enough to your fleet to make it a 100% model, I fully understand being annoyed but don't forget that 95% of the work is done, freeing time for other projects.
Full disclosure: I don't model Santa Fe, Southern Pacific, or CSX. Fuller disclosure: I can generally recognize a GE 3 times out of 4. Fullest disclosure: I love to count rivets, but occasionally compromise an individual project in the spirit of getting a realistic layout done.
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Post by csxt8400 on Nov 22, 2019 13:29:16 GMT -8
Not looking down on people who dont count all the rivets, but I will always defer to those that do.
If there is a flaw and it's pointed out, that's the issue. Being happy with a flawed product was not what this discussion was founded on.
Nobody here hates Rapido. Stop with this stupid witch hunt. You people who will be happy with these models need not interject yourself on a topic you yourself do not care about.
This reeks of an English teacher vs a student who uses the language. One is an expert on the subject, while one merely uses what they know how to. Because you don't care or don't notice doesn't invalidate someones opinion or fact-check.
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Post by cemr5396 on Nov 22, 2019 13:51:59 GMT -8
I just find it ironic that people bitch and moan that 'the hobby is dying', and 'no-one builds or details anything anymore', and then when a model comes out that's 95% 'right', complain about having to do that 5% of 'work' that's required to fix it.
And CSX guys, I get you. Try being a Canadian modeler any time before the last 15 years or so. Companies have been foobing up our stuff since FOREVER. There is still a ton of our stuff that hasn't been done yet, and maybe never will. But if it's that important to you, break out some tools and FIX IT. After all, we're calling ourselves modelers, aren't we?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 13:52:56 GMT -8
Look there is a point of diminishing returns. It is impossible to model each and every single variation 100% dead nuts correct. The prototype diesel manufacturers actually made running changes during production. There are actually more "phases" of second generation diesels than the popular sources, and even gasp--you guys--have ever identified. The manufacturers simply can't cover every variation. Deal with it or go buy some other high-end model.
If you admitted rivet counters would take a second look at oh, I don't know, how about the Atlas C-420, which everybody agrees is one of their "best" models ever, you will find more to your way of thinking "egregious" compromises that they made. Likewise on many other models. I'm not singling out Atlas. There are even variations that people don't know about because they didn't look hard enough. I can't get into the details or other manufacturers will actually get flamed. Variations I've been asked to keep to myself, that were identified during model production.
Sometimes 98% has to be good enough. Development budgets are not unlimited.
Jack
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Post by jonklein611 on Nov 22, 2019 14:34:19 GMT -8
Fuller disclosure: I can generally recognize a GE 3 times out of 4.
The fourth one wasn't shooting flames out the stack, right?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 14:42:19 GMT -8
Try being a Canadian modeler any time before the last 15 years or so. Companies have been foobing up our stuff since FOREVER. There is still a ton of our stuff that hasn't been done yet, and maybe never will. I could use a good M424 and I model railroads in the state of Arizona.
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Post by carrman on Nov 22, 2019 14:59:28 GMT -8
I think the overwhelming theme of this thread is "shut up, we don't want to hear about the problems".
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Post by Deleted on Nov 22, 2019 15:02:58 GMT -8
The Rapido newsletter just came out yesterday, and in it Bill talks about the reasoning as to why they can or cannot do some things. It's at the bottom of the page. conta.cc/34ismM4Greg
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Post by cprail1986 on Nov 22, 2019 15:19:41 GMT -8
Any bets on how many more pages longer this dumpster fire goes? I figured 12 pages before lock but it's blown way past that now, my new one is 16
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Post by stevewoodward on Nov 22, 2019 15:51:23 GMT -8
I'm staying out of the fray, I would just like to ask CR modelers what they think of the shade of blue that Rapido used.
Thanks.
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Post by cemr5396 on Nov 22, 2019 16:02:05 GMT -8
I think the overwhelming theme of this thread is "shut up, we don't want to hear about the problems". It was first brought up a freaking month ago. We've all heard it to death already. It's also been explained to death why they chose to do what they did. You don't have to like it, but what's done is done. I'm frankly sick of hearing about it and I know I'm not alone. IMO this thread never needed to be started, and I would have liked to see it get locked in the first couple pages when it became clear this is where we were headed. But then again, someone probably would've just started a new one, because apparently this is what we do now.
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Post by pboilermaker on Nov 22, 2019 16:12:03 GMT -8
Look there is a point of diminishing returns. It is impossible to model each and every single variation 100% dead nuts correct. The prototype diesel manufacturers actually made running changes during production. There are actually more "phases" of second generation diesels than the popular sources, and even gasp--you guys--have ever identified. The manufacturers simply can't cover every variation. Deal with it or go buy some other high-end model.
If you admitted rivet counters would take a second look at oh, I don't know, how about the Atlas C-420, which everybody agrees is one of their "best" models ever, you will find more to your way of thinking "egregious" compromises that they made. Likewise on many other models. I'm not singling out Atlas. There are even variations that people don't know about because they didn't look hard enough. I can't get into the details or other manufacturers will actually get flamed. Variations I've been asked to keep to myself, that were identified during model production.
Sometimes 98% has to be good enough. Development budgets are not unlimited.
Jack I actually agree with you, to an extent. Since this is a teachable moment, a 95-98% accurate model should also be marketed, priced, and sold as the 95-98% solution that it represents. Do that and I think forum chatter like this would never really exist. I'd wager that I, and every other person who questions the accuracy of a model train, would not be so inclined to scrutinize the final product if the final product came from the "manufacturer who provides 95% of what everyone wanted". I likely wouldn't even be a customer for much of it. There is a huge elephant in the room, however. It is baffling that throughout this entire "discussion" about how neurotic and damaging rivet counters are for this hobby, the biggest self-proclaimed rivet counter (Rapido itself) has been exempted from the scorn and derision heaped upon the consumers who also value a high level of fidelity to the prototype. What is Rapido's reputation and approach to the hobby built on, if not excellence? To paraphrase Ricky Bobby, Rapido usually wakes up and pisses excellence. Generic models at the 95% level? No...no, not at all. Generic is what a large part of the MR hobby is, and has been, all about. No, Rapido has not become a fixture in this hobby by claiming their reason for existence is to make models that are "close enough". It is disingenuous to say otherwise, and you would actually be in direct disagreement with Rapido by saying so. So, yes, I have been a long time Rapido customer and likely will be as long as they stick to their stated purpose, which is releasing models that push the boundaries of what is possible in terms of accuracy and detail. When a model they produce is critically examined against absolute claims of accuracy, understand that the very exercise of critiquing the product is demanded by Rapido themselves, in some cases literally ('turn our models over, examine the obscene detail, and compare our stuff to every other model on the market, which will now pale in comparison'). Companies like Rapido will not get better without that type of challenge from consumers. Few companies challenge their consumers to try and find -any- faults with their products more than Rapido has literally done over the years, so let's not lose our minds when people actually point these things out. It should ultimately make things better, not worse. -Mike (who has his four CSX/SBD B36-7 "abominations" enroute)
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Post by ian on Nov 22, 2019 16:12:43 GMT -8
I seldom post on here, but it looks good for “as delivered” Conrail blue. I'm staying out of the fray, I would just like to ask CR modelers what they think of the shade of blue that Rapido used. Thanks.
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