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Post by onequiknova on Aug 15, 2022 18:31:02 GMT -8
I surely thought a speed recorder on every axle on the Southern unit was a factory mistake. Turns out it's correct. I can't say I've seen that on an E unit before. They probably aren't speed recorders, it's most likely a wheelslip control system. I guess it's still technically measuring the speed, but not for a cab readout. If the wheels are spinning at different speeds, or one traction motor is faster than the others, the control system knows it's slipping. Here's a similar setup on a Burlington U30C: archive.trainpix.com/BN/GE/U30C/890.HTM Right, except E's are A-1-A, yet there is one on every axle. Maybe the center reading is used as a control? |
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Post by Mr. Trainiac on Aug 15, 2022 19:01:58 GMT -8
They probably aren't speed recorders, it's most likely a wheelslip control system. I guess it's still technically measuring the speed, but not for a cab readout. If the wheels are spinning at different speeds, or one traction motor is faster than the others, the control system knows it's slipping. Here's a similar setup on a Burlington U30C: archive.trainpix.com/BN/GE/U30C/890.HTM Right, except E's are A-1-A, yet there is one on every axle. Maybe the center reading is used as a control? That's a good point. I found this photo of a Southern E8 with the sensors on each axle: www.railpictures.net/photo/438395/ Compare these to the Rapido trucks. The Rapido model looks like a Barco speed recorder, with the classic round plate that covers the axle. When I think of 'speed recorder,' this is what I think of. However, the Southern locomotive has equipment that looks totally different. The prototype photo shows a smaller box on top of the main housing, which is more square than round. I found this page online, scroll about two thirds of the way down for a photo of a Barco, and what looks like the same type of equipment used on the Southern unit: www.trainweb.org/sp5623/under13f.jpgThey say it's for the event recorder, which is separate from the Barco mechanical speed recorder the locomotive also has. This model railroad blog kitbashes similar-looking devices, which he also calls wheelslip sensors: appalachianrailroadmodeling.com/stcharlesbranch/category/how-to/I'm just spitballing here; I dont have a lot of professional experience with traction control systems, but having a wheelslip sensor on an unpowered axle could make sense from a braking perspective, a bit like the ABS on a car. |
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Post by theengineshed on Aug 15, 2022 19:26:39 GMT -8
I'm just spitballing here; I dont have a lot of professional experience with traction control systems, but having a wheelslip sensor on an unpowered axle could make sense from a braking perspective, a bit like the ABS on a car. I recall reading that slip control systems in the 80s had the equivalent of a radar gun under the locomotive to measure actual track speed. That way they could control the slip to increase traction. Since all the axles were slipping, there wasn't a reference axle. You wouldn't need that on an AIA truck, you'd have a reference axle. |
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Post by schroed2 on Aug 15, 2022 19:31:11 GMT -8
I dont have a lot of professional experience with traction control systems, but having a wheelslip sensor on an unpowered axle could make sense from a braking perspective, a bit like the ABS on a car. That function exists on rolling stock and is called "wheelslide protection" with the main purpose of avoiding flat spots. Some systems use speed sensors, some use radars or other technologies for the speed detection. I DO have 20+ years professional experience with traction and brake control systems, FWIW....especially their failures  |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 15, 2022 19:59:19 GMT -8
The middle axle could be giving a reference number, which the powered axles could be compared against. Obviously, the middle axle can't (?) slip.
Ed
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Post by fr8kar on Aug 15, 2022 22:26:18 GMT -8
The middle axle could be giving a reference number, which the powered axles could be compared against. Obviously, the middle axle can't (?) slip. Ed I'd like to take you for a ride on a BNSF ES44C4. The middle axles do slip when the independent brakes are applied. Flat spots are the inevitable result. I had to bad order one for a flat spot exceeding three inches not too long ago. I suppose the same scenario could happen on the E units. |
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Post by cemr5396 on Aug 16, 2022 4:35:06 GMT -8
The middle axle could be giving a reference number, which the powered axles could be compared against. Obviously, the middle axle can't (?) slip. Ed I'd like to take you for a ride on a BNSF ES44C4. The middle axles do slip when the independent brakes are applied. Flat spots are the inevitable result. I had to bad order one for a flat spot exceeding three inches not too long ago. I suppose the same scenario could happen on the E units. those units seem to be the pinnacle of 'good idea, horrible execution'. I don't know if I've ever heard anyone say anything good about them. |
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Post by lvrr325 on Aug 16, 2022 5:08:18 GMT -8
Is slide from lockup considered the same as spinning when it slips?
I don't really care but I can picture someone getting bent out of shape over the difference. lol
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Post by lvrr325 on Aug 16, 2022 5:12:23 GMT -8
^^^ Good catch on the opening for the sand fill hatch. It's definitely too large compared to the prototype. Also, you can count me in the 75% club as I think despite the few issues we are finding, it is a very good model. Thanks, Mark J. Reading, PA
Where is this 75% cult club number from? How exactly is this a very good model?
When you include the high price (the one thing where Rapido is the leader), I'm not seeing much value. That's my estimate of how many modelers will look at shiny new and buy vs. how many will look close and nitpick it to death (deservedly or not) and not buy it. I know this will shock you, but I could still sell Athearn wide-body engines if I could get them to sell, provided they were under $100 a shot. Some people don't care about every little thing. |
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Post by Baikal on Aug 16, 2022 6:23:29 GMT -8
Where is this 75% cult club number from? How exactly is this a very good model?
When you include the high price (the one thing where Rapido is the leader), I'm not seeing much value. That's my estimate of how many modelers will look at shiny new and buy vs. how many will look close and nitpick it to death (deservedly or not) and not buy it. I know this will shock you, but I could still sell Athearn wide-body engines if I could get them to sell, provided they were under $100 a shot. Some people don't care about every little thing.
Apparently Rapido doesn't care. There is no "passion" in recent models, as someone mentioned in an earlier post.
Most of the errors on the E8 & PA, like the oversized details, should have been caught early on in the development process. As in the first or second round of drawings before any 3D physical model was done.
The only way the awful porthole, sand filler, roof piping, etc could have gotten into production is through carelessness in the review process. No one saw the roof piping oddity and said "hey, that just don't look right, eh? Let's check that out"?
It could have been done much better. But Rapido chose not to. The porthole could have been drawn and cast to-scale just as easily. But no.
A large number of "little things" add up to a big thing.
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Post by carrman on Aug 16, 2022 7:46:11 GMT -8
Did they use the right style of stainless grille on the side of the locomotive? Thinking back to when DA offered two styles - an early style and a late (F9/E9) style - the model in the photo looks like the latter. Yes, the real 6905 had Farr grilles, so the model is correct in that regard. 6901 has what I believe are called fabricated grilles. So John, I consider you "Mr. E-Unit" with the amazing work you've done in the past building them, what say you about the Rapido effort, yay or nay? dAVE |
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abm
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Post by abm on Aug 16, 2022 8:19:47 GMT -8
I have no insider knowledge of Rapido's operations... someone else on here recently floated the idea that they have a "decentralized" approach to project management, with different projects being run by different teams/people, which could help explain the seemingly broad range of quality/execution across their projects. For instance, the recent EP5 was a knockout IMHO. It is simply one of the best-executed plastic models I've ever seen/owned. Somebody had some true passion for that project. Contrast that with the issues raised here on the E8, which would appear to be a "close enough/good enough" effort. There are plenty of other recent contrasting examples from them (SW1200RS vs SW1200, for instance). Anyway I could go on (we all could!) with the Rapido speculation but the point is, the pace at which they execute projects and release product would seem to indicate they've got multiple project teams with different skills, levels of interest, etc. working on, perhaps, too many projects at the same time. It's not one team with one methodology or process. I've seen this before with my background in manufacturing. It's also indicative of, frankly, an operation that went from mom-and-pop to industry-heavyweight in a relatively short period of time. Again, I have some personal experience with this. The "secret sauce" is there but no one knows how to bottle it! The only E8 I have on order is AMTK 4316... so I guess I don't need to worry about the porthole windows! E-units were not common on anything I model. |
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abm
Junior Member
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Post by abm on Aug 16, 2022 8:20:27 GMT -8
Apparently Rapido doesn't care. There is no "passion" in recent models, as someone mentioned in an earlier post.
I have no insider knowledge of Rapido's operations... someone else on here recently floated the idea that they have a "decentralized" approach to project management, with different projects being run by different teams/people, which could help explain the seemingly broad range of quality/execution across their projects. For instance, the recent EP5 was a knockout IMHO. It is simply one of the best-executed plastic models I've ever seen/owned. Somebody had some true passion for that project. Contrast that with the issues raised here on the E8, which would appear to be a "close enough/good enough" effort. There are plenty of other recent contrasting examples from them (SW1200RS vs SW1200, for instance). Anyway I could go on (we all could!) with the Rapido speculation but the point is, the pace at which they execute projects and release product would seem to indicate they've got multiple project teams with different skills, levels of interest, etc. working on, perhaps, too many projects at the same time. It's not one team with one methodology or process. I've seen this before with my background in manufacturing. It's also indicative of, frankly, an operation that went from mom-and-pop to industry-heavyweight in a relatively short period of time. Again, I have some personal experience with this. The "secret sauce" is there but no one knows how to bottle it! The only E8 I have on order is AMTK 4316... so I guess I don't need to worry about the porthole windows! E-units were not common on anything I model. |
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Post by jonklein611 on Aug 16, 2022 8:48:06 GMT -8
I have no insider knowledge of Rapido's operations... someone else on here recently floated the idea that they have a "decentralized" approach to project management, with different projects being run by different teams/people, which could help explain the seemingly broad range of quality/execution across their projects. For instance, the recent EP5 was a knockout IMHO. It is simply one of the best-executed plastic models I've ever seen/owned. Somebody had some true passion for that project. Contrast that with the issues raised here on the E8, which would appear to be a "close enough/good enough" effort. There are plenty of other recent contrasting examples from them (SW1200RS vs SW1200, for instance). Anyway I could go on (we all could!) with the Rapido speculation but the point is, the pace at which they execute projects and release product would seem to indicate they've got multiple project teams with different skills, levels of interest, etc. working on, perhaps, too many projects at the same time. It's not one team with one methodology or process. I've seen this before with my background in manufacturing. It's also indicative of, frankly, an operation that went from mom-and-pop to industry-heavyweight in a relatively short period of time. Again, I have some personal experience with this. The "secret sauce" is there but no one knows how to bottle it! The only E8 I have on order is AMTK 4316... so I guess I don't need to worry about the porthole windows! E-units were not common on anything I model. I would agree with this assessment. It appears that Rapido's quality of output is directly linked to the project management team attached to the project. They've had some knockout products that were nearly flawless, and others that missed the mark and others with mixed results due to prototype specific details. I will also say if there's something in development (from any manufacturer) that you're passionate about and have knowledge on, go ahead and provide the input. You may have caught something that's been overlooked and those are much easier to implement and fix in the design phase. The other challenge is the number of variations vs. pre-production samples provided. I think for the E8 they showed one, maybe two versions? I'd suggest increasing the number of samples shows at pre production stage, or at least sharing the output of the CAD files for each "flavor". This would allow better review / comments to be received. |
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Post by lvrr325 on Aug 16, 2022 8:54:00 GMT -8
The reason the Rapido New Haven pieces are so well done is there's a lot of input from the historical society on it, I think they even footed the bill to tool up one of the passenger cars. On the other hand the RS11s I complained about the color on seem to have only had the input of a poorly chosen paint chip. So I would agree there is varying effort into each project and even each roadname on a given model. There's probably some assumption that certain features were largely the same on particular locomotive models.
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Post by onequiknova on Aug 16, 2022 17:29:02 GMT -8
Yes, the real 6905 had Farr grilles, so the model is correct in that regard. 6901 has what I believe are called fabricated grilles. So John, I consider you "Mr. E-Unit" with the amazing work you've done in the past building them, what say you about the Rapido effort, yay or nay? dAVE Let's just say I won't be getting rid of my pile of undec BLI E8s and Highliner kits for the noses. I may pick up a couple of UP E8B's to turn into Rock Island B units. We'll see what they look like in person. |
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Post by onequiknova on Aug 16, 2022 17:32:34 GMT -8
How big of a concern would wheel slip have been on passenger trains anyway?
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Post by Baikal on Aug 16, 2022 17:49:40 GMT -8
How big of a concern would wheel slip have been on passenger trains anyway?
Behind the drawbar, tons are tons, but passenger locos could be slipperier due to the usually higher power-to-weight ratio for pax trains. Rapid acceleration is more important for passenger service, especially for trains with many stops/starts like commuter.
Slippage video. Mostly steam but the principle is the same.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 16, 2022 19:20:58 GMT -8
When I was a wee lad living in Long Branch, NJ, I heard and remember the steam engines slipping their wheels, doing passenger service. Not T-1's, of course. Commute, I assume.
I have wondered why Pennsy didn't work out some way to minimize the wheel slip for single engines on the T's. One way that would have eliminated it completely is to have had only one valve gear controlling the two engines.
Ed
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Post by lvrr325 on Aug 17, 2022 8:17:11 GMT -8
I've seen clips from the VR cams at Strasburg of the N&W 375 slipping a bit down at Paradise running around the train.
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ictom
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Post by ictom on Aug 17, 2022 11:13:44 GMT -8
I agree about the droopy couplers - don't know why they can't seem to fix that. However, some of the rest of these comments are pretty harsh.
The cabin windows are square and have been shown exactly that way, since day one of drawings that Rapido put out. The angle is ever so slightly more to the center of the nose on the Rapido Southern shot, while the real shot has what appears to be a "real" canvas window shade that's drooping across the top of the window, making it appear rectangular. It also appears that the shade is a bit longer than the window, toward the door, adding to the window's appearance, lengthwise.
I'm not too sure about the rest, except that design decisions have to be made on detail thickness vs robustness.
I'm probably in that 75%, but I do wish the IC brown was a bit more semi-gloss. At least they got the orange correct. I got sick of looking at the Proto yellow and got rid of the ones I had.
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Post by gmpullman on Aug 17, 2022 11:50:16 GMT -8
How big of a concern would wheel slip have been on passenger trains anyway? One of Amtrak's first major wrecks, June 10, 1971, was caused by a sliding wheel that caused a wreck in Tonti, IL that killed eleven people. The City of New Orleans was the train involved and I believe investigators said the wheel had been slipping for more than 40* miles. Wikipedia Article#4031 had made another run from Chicago to New Orleans on June 6. Engine #2 had failed on that trip as well and was shut down in New Orleans. As an added precaution the reverser for the engine was locked in neutral for trip to Chicago. Shutting down the engine and locking the reverser in neutral had the effect of disabling the wheel slip indicator, which would notify the locomotive engineer that a wheel was slipping or sliding.Lightweight Passenger cars were sometimes equipped with Westinghouse "Decelostat" wheel slip systems that reduced brake cylinder pressure if the axle sensor detected a sliding wheel. Lots of information in the ICC/NTSB investigation, especially E8 traction motor and wheel slip systems here: upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/NTSB_RAR-72-5.pdfRegards, Ed * NY Times article states 40 miles but the ICC report says 27.3 miles. |
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Post by Baikal on Aug 17, 2022 12:41:42 GMT -8
However, some of the rest of these comments are pretty harsh. I'm not too sure about the rest, except that design decisions have to be made on detail thickness vs robustness. I'm probably in that 75%, but I do wish the IC brown was a bit more semi-gloss. At least they got the orange correct. I got sick of looking at the Proto yellow and got rid of the ones I had.
Yet those comments point out truths about some obvious flaws in an expensive item. Flaws that could have been avoided if there was quality control.
Are you saying that forward porthole had to be made too small & malformed? (Note AHM did it much better 55 years ago). That the grabs have to be 3x too thick? That there is no better way to do this model, even at inflated Rapido prices?
It's a harsh model.
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Post by westerntrains on Aug 17, 2022 13:28:56 GMT -8
The close up's show how poorly the E units are done.
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Post by gevohogger on Aug 17, 2022 13:36:01 GMT -8
However, some of the rest of these comments are pretty harsh. I'm not too sure about the rest, except that design decisions have to be made on detail thickness vs robustness. I'm probably in that 75%, but I do wish the IC brown was a bit more semi-gloss. At least they got the orange correct. I got sick of looking at the Proto yellow and got rid of the ones I had.
Yet those comments point out truths about some obvious flaws in an expensive item. Flaws that could have been avoided if there was quality control.
Are you saying that forward porthole had to be made too small & malformed? (Note AHM did it much better 55 years ago). That the grabs have to be 3x too thick? That there is no better way to do this model, even at inflated Rapido prices?
It's a harsh model.
Maybe Rapido should take a page out of Athearn's book.... The "Legendary Liveries" book, whereby locomotives are released in certain "alternate reality" paint schemes. Rapido could promote an "alternate reality" whereby the railroads replaced the standard 1.5" grabiron diameter with something resembling 4" cast iron water pipe like that found in residential basements. They'd sell like hotcakes! |
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Post by lvrr325 on Aug 17, 2022 14:00:59 GMT -8
If you think the Proto IC orange is bad, I got a set of AHM streamline cars to run with my first run Proto IC E8 - bought at a Greenberg show just because it was cheap. They make the Proto look accurate.
The porthole looks like they intended it to actually open. Does it? Only the front and rear ones are like that on most of the pictures I looked at. It's sort of like some of the bad details on early Proto engines done to make them operable or movable.
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ictom
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Post by ictom on Aug 17, 2022 17:47:33 GMT -8
However, some of the rest of these comments are pretty harsh. I'm not too sure about the rest, except that design decisions have to be made on detail thickness vs robustness. I'm probably in that 75%, but I do wish the IC brown was a bit more semi-gloss. At least they got the orange correct. I got sick of looking at the Proto yellow and got rid of the ones I had. Yet those comments point out truths about some obvious flaws in an expensive item. Flaws that could have been avoided if there was quality control.
Are you saying that forward porthole had to be made too small & malformed? (Note AHM did it much better 55 years ago). That the grabs have to be 3x too thick? That there is no better way to do this model, even at inflated Rapido prices?
It's a harsh model. As I said, grabs are a design decision, depending on materials and their experience with how they hold up. Sone of us would rather not break details every time you pick up a locomotive. I would rather they were metal, but maybe that's cost prohibitive. As for the porthole, it's not malformed. It's too big (the frame) unfortunately, but not malformed. Personally, I'm glad they didn't blank them out, at least on the IC versions. Anyway, maybe they'll fix some of these things. If they don't, I probably won't buy anymore than I've signed for, either.
About the AHM/Rivarossi version: I owned one when they were brand new. You could blow air through those portholes and it had a single powered truck with traction tires. About the only "right" thing about one was that it was available when no one else made an E8/9. The IC version was very heavy with the milk in the milk-chocolate finish (should've been dark-chocolate, period). The green diamond was a paper sticker on the nose.
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Post by Baikal on Aug 17, 2022 18:46:50 GMT -8
Yet those comments point out truths about some obvious flaws in an expensive item. Flaws that could have been avoided if there was quality control.
Are you saying that forward porthole had to be made too small & malformed? (Note AHM did it much better 55 years ago). That the grabs have to be 3x too thick? That there is no better way to do this model, even at inflated Rapido prices?
It's a harsh model. As I said, grabs are a design decision, depending on materials and their experience with how they hold up. Sone of us would rather not break details every time you pick up a locomotive. I would rather they were metal, but maybe that's cost prohibitive. As for the porthole, it's not malformed. It's too big (the frame) unfortunately, but not malformed. Personally, I'm glad they didn't blank them out, at least on the IC versions. Anyway, maybe they'll fix some of these things. If they don't, I probably won't buy anymore than I've signed for, either.
About the AHM/Rivarossi version: I owned one when they were brand new. You could blow air through those portholes and it had a single powered truck with traction tires. About the only "right" thing about one was that it was available when no one else made an E8/9. The IC version was very heavy with the milk in the milk-chocolate finish (should've been dark-chocolate, period). The green diamond was a paper sticker on the nose.
Yes, the grabs are a design decision. Is there anything about any model that isn't the result of a design decision? Rapido made a design decision to put grabs too fat for an O scale model on an HO unit and still ask for big $$$ for it. Are we supposed say "oh, now that you explained that it's a design decision, it's ok"?
The AHM E8 porthole looks fine ho-scaletrains.com/ahm-emd-e8/ because it looks very much like the prototype. Aka it's right. And it's the only thing I mentioned about the AHM model. So what if it had traction tires? Start a new thread to bash granddad's E unit. This is 2022.
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Post by cera2254 on Aug 18, 2022 2:33:18 GMT -8
Rapido makes some outstanding products, I’m excited for the U25B, but some of these other issues are just real head scratchers. Why not use the same size grab irons everyone else and even Rapido uses on other products? I’m just confused I guess. That porthole too is woof, I’m not sure how that made it past a cad rendering or how they thought modelers wouldn’t notice it…
Edit: After looking at the photo again, it’s almost like They accidentally tooled in an extra layer. If you look outside of the gasket there is another ridge.
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ictom
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Post by ictom on Aug 18, 2022 7:42:39 GMT -8
Rapido makes some outstanding products, I’m excited for the U25B, but some of these other issues are just real head scratchers. Why not use the same size grab irons everyone else and even Rapido uses on other products? I’m just confused I guess. That porthole too is woof, I’m not sure how that made it past a cad rendering or how they thought modelers wouldn’t notice it… Edit: After looking at the photo again, it’s almost like They accidentally tooled in an extra layer. If you look outside of the gasket there is another ridge. Yep. My guess is the Chinese decided they needed something more robust to hold the clear plastic and made the change on the fly. |
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