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Post by onequiknova on Aug 20, 2022 6:32:03 GMT -8
This was discussed somewhat earlier in this thread. It appears the larger center portholes are a feature on most (all?) E9's. I've also seen evidence of UP modifying some of their E8's as well. It seems very clear that UP modified the portholes, as pics from before the 70’s 60’s show all being the same size, such as this one www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=784883 (someone else, feel free to upload, iPad won’t do it for me). It’s looking more and more like Rapido didn’t make a mistake in rendering what they scanned. It’s just that the locomotive they 3-D scanned had some modifications that make the portholes inaccurate for most early UP phases an any other non-UP heritage locomotive. Not to beat a dead horse, but it would be like them scanning a CSX B36 and then having the wrong step wells for everybody else. Those are E8's though, not E9's. Here is a new SP E9 taken in 1954. www.american-rails.com/images/909873yh9873gg3297022.jpg Id like to find some more early pictures of E9's to confirm. |
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Post by Baikal on Aug 20, 2022 8:26:00 GMT -8
Yeah, they like to brag so much about how they have 3D scanned the prototypes. Seems they didn't pay enough attention to the scans. Rapido has publicly stated, at least in their videos, some of which I've watched, that they actually have three factories, and yes, I agree with the assessment that they grew quickly into a relative heavyweight company, perhaps leading to some of the issues we are seeing. I am not condoning bad drafting or design, far from it. I only have a little bit of insight into how other, smaller manufacturers do things. Although there is a "project manager" if you want to call it that, a new diesel actually gets scrutinized by a whole team of people. Members of that team have different responsibilities, but at least one guy is tasked with making sure everything fits together correctly, as it involves making adjustments to the plastic molding process even after the tooling is created in order to get things right. I had an opportunity to talk to that one guy recently (not employed at Rapido) and got a bit more information than I can possibly remember. He was talking about plastic temperature, time in the molds, and stuff completely way over my head. This other manufacturer does believe in getting factory painted sample models. They absolutely do not roll their own samples with a custom painter here in the states. They would tell you that doing so is absolutely crazy. You need factory finished pilot models that can be reviewed and scrutinized before the final changes are made to details and paint schemes. They even show the sample models to anybody who happens to be there just in case they might catch something. After all this stuff is not top secret, right? At various times I've gotten to look at sample models myself (and frankly didn't know enough about the prototype to be able to offer any comments other than regarding paint color). Everybody has an opinion about paint colors. Sadly it seems too many Rapido projects are rushed into production without any kind of review and comment period on factory finished sample models, much less even just finished shells. Some things could be caught and prevented, but it's too late when custom painted samples are shown and models are already on the water. Rapido needs to improve.
To paraphrase Cosmo Kramer: "3D scanning is the biggest scam perpetrated on the American public since One Hour Martinizing".
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Post by sourwyfan on Aug 20, 2022 12:16:36 GMT -8
It's my impression that the size difference is much greater for the UP units. Unfortunately, just about everyone who ever took pictures of E's thought that a 3/4 front was the way to go, so it's tough to find really good side pictures, such as the one of UP 942. Ed Agree, I've been searching and found tons of 3/4 front views, but good side pictures are rare. I just found this one of PRR E8A 5895 taken at Pittsburgh on 6-12-53.  Thanks, Mark   Picture above by Unknown BR, Rahl |
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Post by sourwyfan on Aug 20, 2022 12:22:00 GMT -8
Good side view of UP E8 942.  Thanks, Mark J. Reading, PA That front opening porthole on 942 has a metal ring (With a hinge) to hold the the gasket and glass, whereas the rear portholes glass is just mounted in the side sheet hole with a rubber gasket. (No metal ring) Southern 6910 for reference...  Picture above by Martin O'Toole Southern 6905 for reference...  Picture above by Unknown BR, Rahl |
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Post by markfj on Aug 20, 2022 14:47:21 GMT -8
From Conrail Photo Archives: Former PRR E8A 5836 meets EL E8A 833 in South Amboy NJ June 1980. PRR unit is now NJDOT 4246 and EL unit is CR 4022. That exPRR unit has seen better days!  Thanks, Mark |
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Post by wagnersteve on Aug 21, 2022 6:59:22 GMT -8
Sunday, August 21, starting 10:07 a.m., EDT
I'm still catching up with reading and writing, besides various work for my family, after a few days largely out of touch with the outside world in Vermont, followed my first public transportation rides in at least 2 1/2 years because of the pandemic, my first ever expedition on Downeasters from Woburn, MA to Maine and back. I went as far as they go now, to Brunswick. Great fun, lots of good conversations with others.
Responding to the post on this thread from sourwyfan, I don't think the lack of portholes on the sample Erie Lackawanna E8A Rapido Trains showed, not just on their video and in a photo, but in the renderings on the website, flyer and newsletter, is "tragic". But that's because my favorite railroad is the Delaware & Hudson. If I were to buy an EL E8, I'd prefer it to be close to the state of such locos when they pulled the Laurentian and Montreal Limited on the D&H in 1970 while one of its own PA's couldn't generate enough steam for the cars and while some of them were being rebuilt. As far as I've been able to judge from photos on line and in books, all EL units had had their portholes covered by then. D&H modelers will find it inconvenient that apparently only one of the four EL E8A's Rapido chose to produce, EL 816, match esthe numbers of units I'm sure were used on D&H trains, which included at least EL 820, 821, and 824 as well. I've been checking other books in hopes of finding others. But I'd consider that an inconvenience. After all, model railroading is a hobby. That's it for now. (10:59)
2nd correction within a few minutes on September, made at about 10:30 p.m.: I started the earlier correction (mostly italicizing train names) after a very busy period including another family trip to Vermont from which I got back this evening.
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ictom
Junior Member
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Post by ictom on Sept 5, 2022 4:46:35 GMT -8
Sunday, August 21, starting 10:07 a.m., EDT <snip> Responding to the post on this thread from sourwyfan, I don't think the lack of portholes on the sample Erie Lackawanna E8A Rapido Trains showed, not just on their video and in a photo, but in the renderings on the website, flyer and newsletter, is "tragic". </snip> I've been sometimes accused of using hyperbolic adjectives. I should've said, "unfortunate." Looks like arrival of these things is getting close. I got an e-mail from Trainworld that said the Amtrak black E8 is arriving this month. |
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Post by wagnersteve on Sept 5, 2022 18:33:34 GMT -8
Labor Day night at about 10:32
ictom, thanks for your post, which I just now saw. I think all of us use hyperbolic language sometimes, and that includes me, too.
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ictom
Junior Member
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Post by ictom on Dec 1, 2022 7:08:02 GMT -8
It's my impression that the size difference is much greater for the UP units. Unfortunately, just about everyone who ever took pictures of E's thought that a 3/4 front was the way to go, so it's tough to find really good side pictures, such as the one of UP 942. Ed Taken from a Green Frog video of Illinois Central:  And this:  It's clear that for IC, at least, the portholes are very much like the UP preserved E8. The front and rear hinged portholes are very much larger than the inner ones, even after accounting for the hinge. Note also that the cab window is definitely square (except for very rounded corners at the rear). |
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Post by timvanmersbergen on Dec 1, 2022 7:24:06 GMT -8
IC 2037 is former FEC E9 #1032 acquired by the IC in 1969.
Tim VanMersbergen
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ictom
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Post by ictom on Dec 1, 2022 7:39:51 GMT -8
EDIT: I've removed this post. Sorry - I've invested in several of these in IC, so I'm going to let others continue the bashing, instead.
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Post by middledivision on Dec 1, 2022 8:12:39 GMT -8
They totally botched the number boards. deal breaker for me.
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Post by Baikal on Dec 1, 2022 8:36:22 GMT -8
It's my impression that the size difference is much greater for the UP units. Unfortunately, just about everyone who ever took pictures of E's thought that a 3/4 front was the way to go, so it's tough to find really good side pictures, such as the one of UP 942. Ed Taken from a Green Frog video of Illinois Central: And this: It's clear that for IC, at least, the portholes are very much like the UP preserved E8. The front and rear hinged portholes are very much larger than the inner ones, even after accounting for the hinge. Note also that the cab window is definitely square (except for very rounded corners at the rear).
Wot? You have it backwards.
The front & rear porthole visible glass is smaller than the inner two portholes.
The HOLES in the side panels are the same size for all four portholes. It's the thick "gasket" around the outer portholes that reduces their glass area.
Measure the distance from the bottom of the "gaskets" to the top of the riveted batten strip. All four are the same. Aka the outside diameter of all portholes is the same.
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ictom
Junior Member
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Post by ictom on Dec 1, 2022 11:03:20 GMT -8
Taken from a Green Frog video of Illinois Central: And this: It's clear that for IC, at least, the portholes are very much like the UP preserved E8. The front and rear hinged portholes are very much larger than the inner ones, even after accounting for the hinge. Note also that the cab window is definitely square (except for very rounded corners at the rear). Wot? You have it backwards.
The front & rear porthole visible glass is smaller than the inner two portholes.
The HOLES in the side panels are the same size for all four portholes. It's the thick "gasket" around the outer portholes that reduces their glass area.
Measure the distance from the bottom of the "gaskets" to the top of the riveted batten strip. All four are the same. Aka the outside diameter of all portholes is the same. Honestly, please take the time to realize I was referring to the entire assemblies There's no difficulty in interpreting what I meant if you simply look at the photos. The frames, gaskets, etc. are larger. Pretty sure you said awhile ago tha they were all the same, like your beloved AHM E8s. |
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Post by Baikal on Dec 1, 2022 15:57:33 GMT -8
Wot? You have it backwards.
The front & rear porthole visible glass is smaller than the inner two portholes.
The HOLES in the side panels are the same size for all four portholes. It's the thick "gasket" around the outer portholes that reduces their glass area.
Measure the distance from the bottom of the "gaskets" to the top of the riveted batten strip. All four are the same. Aka the outside diameter of all portholes is the same. Honestly, please take the time to realize I was referring to the entire assemblies There's no difficulty in interpreting what I meant if you simply look at the photos. The frames, gaskets, etc. are larger. Pretty sure you said awhile ago tha they were all the same, like your beloved AHM E8s.
You originally wrote: "The front and rear hinged portholes are very much larger than the inner ones". (emphasis mine)
They are not. The portholes are the same size. That is, the outer diameter of the gaskets are the same.
Realizing your error, "portholes are larger" became "The frames, gaskets, etc. are larger."
Which is true, but so what? The outer porthole has a hinge and the gasket is thicker.
The diameter of the visible glass on the outer portholes is smaller because the thick gasket covers more glass. So, when a locomotive where the gaskets are painted the loco color is seen from a distance, the outer portholes appear smaller.
Looking at this photo of UP E9A 949 & a "B" unit, every non-railfan is going to agree that the outer portholes appear to be smaller- because there is less glass visible.
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ictom
Junior Member
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Post by ictom on Dec 2, 2022 13:20:11 GMT -8
Honestly, please take the time to realize I was referring to the entire assemblies There's no difficulty in interpreting what I meant if you simply look at the photos. The frames, gaskets, etc. are larger. Pretty sure you said awhile ago tha they were all the same, like your beloved AHM E8s.
You originally wrote: "The front and rear hinged portholes are very much larger than the inner ones". (emphasis mine)
They are not. The portholes are the same size. That is, the outer diameter of the gaskets are the same.
Realizing your error, "portholes are larger" became "The frames, gaskets, etc. are larger."
Which is true, but so what? The outer porthole has a hinge and the gasket is thicker.
The diameter of the visible glass on the outer portholes is smaller because the thick gasket covers more glass. So, when a locomotive where the gaskets are painted the loco color is seen from a distance, the outer portholes appear smaller.
Looking at this photo of UP E9A 949 & a "B" unit, every non-railfan is going to agree that the outer portholes appear to be smaller- because there is less glass visible.
You see the glass (which doesn't exist on your beloved AHM E8s). I see the frame. This isn't worth the trouble when you're using a different language. Someone might conclude that stating "every non-railfan is going to agree" is a bit arrogant, too. Or maybe I should say, "everyone will conclude." I don't know - maybe that's arrogant, too. I guess I'm not sure of anything anymore. Thanks for your help. |
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Post by atsf_4 on Dec 2, 2022 13:43:03 GMT -8
I did buy the Amtrak special edition E8, and it is wonderful (no portholes). I have other Rapido E-8's on order.
This thread is not making me want to pony up and buy more Rapido anything.
I really prefer the BLI ATSF E1 and E6 units, and (excepting the Amtrak special E-8) I think I will stick with Santa Fe motive power (Rapido has not yet offered an ATSF E-8m).
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Post by riogrande on Dec 2, 2022 13:56:33 GMT -8
I wouldn't mind an Amtrak E unit from Rapido but until they do an E9 ex UP in Amtrak, my wallet is safe.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Dec 2, 2022 15:47:16 GMT -8
I'm pretty sure I'll buy a Rapido BN E8, along with some gallery coaches. No porthole problem there.
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Post by riogrande on Dec 2, 2022 16:06:52 GMT -8
I'm pretty sure I'll buy a Rapido BN E8, along with some gallery coaches. No porthole problem there. Back in the early 1980's I was a student at Indiana University and would drive up to visit my sister in Chicago and would see those commuter trains with the BN E8's for power. Blast from the past. |
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Post by markfj on Dec 2, 2022 18:16:20 GMT -8
This video review of the Pennsy model popped up on YouTube the other day and I have to say that the paint and pin strips look pretty good. I don't want one with the trainphone antenna, so maybe a later run will have that version. (Skim to the 2:30 time mark to see the model finally taken out of the box.) Unboxing Rapido HO EMD E8A DCC Sound Pennsylvania - 5 Stripe SchemeThanks, Mark |
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Post by atsf_4 on Dec 2, 2022 22:02:34 GMT -8
Mark--
Distributor Heartland is offering a Rapido PRR late 1960's version E-8. It comes without the portholes and without the antenna, but it is in the last PRR paint scheme: Tuscan Red with two plain PRR Keystones on each side. They probably still have some available; also, Trainworld is getting the Heartland units (I bet the NYC all green scheme will be really hot).
I have both PRR units on order (they only come with sound). Additionally, I have two plain DC Amtrak platinum mist versions coming. Since I decided to just try to focus on western passenger trains, any or all of these units will be available if somebody wants one.
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Post by atsf_4 on Dec 2, 2022 22:05:48 GMT -8
I'm pretty sure I'll buy a Rapido BN E8, along with some gallery coaches. No porthole problem there. Back in the early 1980's I was a student at Indiana University and would drive up to visit my sister in Chicago and would see those commuter trains with the BN E8's for power. Blast from the past. Several of those units were former CB&Q E-9's with the stainless steel side panels. I do not know if they just painted over the stainless steel, or if they replaced the side panels. Some of the BN E-9's lasted beyond 2000, completing 50 years of service. |
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Post by typhoon on Dec 3, 2022 5:15:38 GMT -8
Mark-- Distributor Heartland is offering a Rapido PRR late 1950's version E-8. It comes without the portholes and without the antenna, but it is in the last PRR paint scheme: Tuscan Red with two plain PRR Keystones on each side. They probably still have some available; also, Trainworld is getting the Heartland units (I bet the NYC all green scheme will be really hot). I have both PRR units on order (they only come with sound). Additionally, I have two plain DC Amtrak platinum mist versions coming. Since I decided to just try to focus on western passenger trains, any or all of these units will be available if somebody wants one. That would be the mid to late 60’s scheme. Not the 50’s. |
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Post by atsf_4 on Dec 3, 2022 9:00:47 GMT -8
Yes, late at night and I mis-typed. Thank you. About 1967-on till the end of PRR service. Keystones but NO yellow or gold stripe. I do not know if any of them painted this way lasted into Amtrak or if PC got all of them into the black first.
9 E-8's were rebuilt by Penn Central, at least internally, in the hopes Amtrak would buy them, which they actually did. One of those 9 units became Amtrak 4361.
Several of the former PRR E-8's lasted into 1978.
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