ictom
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Post by ictom on Aug 18, 2022 7:47:12 GMT -8
As I said, grabs are a design decision, depending on materials and their experience with how they hold up. Sone of us would rather not break details every time you pick up a locomotive. I would rather they were metal, but maybe that's cost prohibitive. As for the porthole, it's not malformed. It's too big (the frame) unfortunately, but not malformed. Personally, I'm glad they didn't blank them out, at least on the IC versions. Anyway, maybe they'll fix some of these things. If they don't, I probably won't buy anymore than I've signed for, either.
About the AHM/Rivarossi version: I owned one when they were brand new. You could blow air through those portholes and it had a single powered truck with traction tires. About the only "right" thing about one was that it was available when no one else made an E8/9. The IC version was very heavy with the milk in the milk-chocolate finish (should've been dark-chocolate, period). The green diamond was a paper sticker on the nose.
Yes, the grabs are a design decision. Is there anything about any model that isn't the result of a design decision? Rapido made a design decision to put grabs too fat for an O scale model on an HO unit and still ask for big $$$ for it. Are we supposed say "oh, now that you explained that it's a design decision, it's ok"?
The AHM E8 porthole looks fine ho-scaletrains.com/ahm-emd-e8/ because it looks very much like the prototype. Aka it's right. And it's the only thing I mentioned about the AHM model. So what if it had traction tires? Start a new thread to bash granddad's E unit. This is 2022.
I didn't come here to fight, but it seemed Rapido was getting a pretty raw deal, especially after reading the PA thread for last few days/weeks. Your reply sounds a lot like trolling, but I thank you for your response anyway.  |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 18, 2022 7:47:32 GMT -8
Yep. My guess is the Chinese decided they needed something more robust to hold the clear plastic and made the change on the fly. I don't think those windows open, so I don't see how THOSE holes need to be more robust than the others. Ed |
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ictom
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Post by ictom on Aug 18, 2022 7:52:00 GMT -8
Yep. My guess is the Chinese decided they needed something more robust to hold the clear plastic and made the change on the fly. I don't think those windows open, so I don't see how THOSE holes need to be more robust than the others. Ed Well, there are complaints here and elsewhere that Rapido is using clear plastic that's too thick. Take the porthole ring and imagine it scale-size, and the clear plastic window would probably stick out beyond the ring. Just a guess ... I looked at the UP E8 photos and admittedly, there's nothing to indicate a double ring and my attempt to explain it is not an excuse. I agree they should fix it. I just objected to comparing Rapido's work to stuff made 50+ years ago. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 18, 2022 8:35:00 GMT -8
I don't think those windows open, so I don't see how THOSE holes need to be more robust than the others. Ed Well, there are complaints here and elsewhere that Rapido is using clear plastic that's too thick. Take the porthole ring and imagine it scale-size, and the clear plastic window would probably stick out beyond the ring. Just a guess ... It's not the thickness of the window (in this case) that's the problem, it's the diameter. Which is measured in a different direction. Well as everyone knows, when you compare stuff made today with stuff made 50+ years ago, the stuff made today is always better (How could it NOT be-with all the super computer cad laser.....). Except when it's not. Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 18, 2022 8:39:30 GMT -8
I didn't come here to fight, but it seemed Rapido was getting a pretty raw deal, especially after reading the PA thread for last few days/weeks. Well, I just re-read it. Any "raw dealing" could break down into three groups: mistakes design decisions believed to be wrong the ability of Rapido to do better If you could, could you please point out the raw dealing in those three concepts? Is discussing a possible mistake a raw deal? Is disagreeing with a design decision by Rapido a raw deal? Is asserting that Rapido could do better a raw deal? Ed |
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Post by Baikal on Aug 18, 2022 12:14:07 GMT -8
Rapido makes some outstanding products, I’m excited for the U25B, but some of these other issues are just real head scratchers. Why not use the same size grab irons everyone else and even Rapido uses on other products? I’m just confused I guess. That porthole too is woof, I’m not sure how that made it past a cad rendering or how they thought modelers wouldn’t notice it… Edit: After looking at the photo again, it’s almost like They accidentally tooled in an extra layer. If you look outside of the gasket there is another ridge. Yep. My guess is the Chinese decided they needed something more robust to hold the clear plastic and made the change on the fly.
With the True Believers, it's always someone else's fault. Now "The Chinese" because "my guess".
Arrrrrgh, dasterdly Chinese plot to discredit company!
Rapido should never be held responsible. But profits? Ah, that's another story.
Poor execution results from no (or too little) quality control. The attitude among TBs seems to be "who cares, people will buy them anyway". So what's the incentive to improve?
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Post by Baikal on Aug 18, 2022 12:15:43 GMT -8
I don't think those windows open, so I don't see how THOSE holes need to be more robust than the others. Ed Well, there are complaints here and elsewhere that Rapido is using clear plastic that's too thick. Take the porthole ring and imagine it scale-size, and the clear plastic window would probably stick out beyond the ring. Just a guess ... I looked at the UP E8 photos and admittedly, there's nothing to indicate a double ring and my attempt to explain it is not an excuse. I agree they should fix it. I just objected to comparing Rapido's work to [better] stuff made 50+ years ago.
Fixed it for ya.
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Post by riogrande on Aug 18, 2022 12:33:26 GMT -8
Yep. My guess is the Chinese decided they needed something more robust to hold the clear plastic and made the change on the fly. With the True Believers, it's always someone else's fault. Now "The Chinese" because "my guess".
Arrrrrgh, dasterdly Chinese plot to discredit company!
Rapido should never be held responsible. But profits? Ah, that's another story.
Poor execution results from no (or too little) quality control. The attitude among TBs seems to be "who cares, people will buy them anyway". So what's the incentive to improve?
Interestingly, I've been watching quite a few videos by two guys who lived in China for a long time and were vloggers. China has really been changing since Xi came into power and things are much much worse. It makes me wonder how much it will affect toys we buy that are manufactured in China. They are much more restrictive and getting worse every month. |
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Post by Baikal on Aug 18, 2022 13:09:14 GMT -8
With the True Believers, it's always someone else's fault. Now "The Chinese" because "my guess".
Arrrrrgh, dasterdly Chinese plot to discredit company!
Rapido should never be held responsible. But profits? Ah, that's another story.
Poor execution results from no (or too little) quality control. The attitude among TBs seems to be "who cares, people will buy them anyway". So what's the incentive to improve?
Interestingly, I've been watching quite a few videos by two guys who lived in China for a long time and were vloggers. China has really been changing since Xi came into power and things are much much worse. It makes me wonder how much it will affect toys we buy that are manufactured in China. They are much more restrictive and getting worse every month.
Not seeing that at all, having been to China. So I'm a first-hand vs 2nd-hand anecdoter.
What I am seeing in the 10 years since Xi Jinping became president is massivley increased standard of living, longer lifespans, fewer farmers / higher ag yield, etc. Homeownership way up. Auto use up massively. 25,000 miles of true high-speed rail (vs. zero in the US). Chinese people are pretty satisfied the way things are going. FAR more satisfied than people are in the USA.
Almost everything you read in the western media (US, UK, most of western Europe, AUS, CAN, NZ) about China, Russia, Belarus, Hungary, the former Soviet 'stans, Syria, and Iran is BS.
How often do you see anything positive about these countries in the popular media? It's all over-the-top negativity, 24/7. Yet we keep buying.
What has China done to US citizens except sell them them sometimes good, sometimes crummy, stuff? The US destroyed it's own manufacturing capibilities and off-shored the "dirty work" to China. I can't blame Chinese for taking advantage of our stupidity / lazyness. The Chinese government (and Russia)'s goal is taking care of their own citizens. Has been for 1,000s of years.
US media has been predicting the imminent downfall of China and Russia for decades. It's not happening, will never happen. Meanwhile in the west...
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Post by riogrande on Aug 18, 2022 13:59:00 GMT -8
Almost everything you read in the western media (US, UK, most of western Europe, AUS, CAN, NZ) about China, Russia, Belarus, Hungary, the former Soviet 'stans, Syria, and Iran is BS. Here is the thing, none of the stuff I've been reading is from the western media. I'll just leave it at that since this is a train forum. |
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Post by lvrr325 on Aug 18, 2022 14:47:28 GMT -8
What was it Abe Lincoln said about believing what you read online?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on Aug 18, 2022 16:18:43 GMT -8
Well, there are complaints here and elsewhere that Rapido is using clear plastic that's too thick. Take the porthole ring and imagine it scale-size, and the clear plastic window would probably stick out beyond the ring. Just a guess ... I looked at the UP E8 photos and admittedly, there's nothing to indicate a double ring and my attempt to explain it is not an excuse. I agree they should fix it. I just objected to comparing Rapido's work to [better] stuff made 50+ years ago.
Fixed it for ya.
I've vented enough on the "overlookings" and the E-unit fits the "it's MOST AMAZING and 1000% accuratest EVER!" or "our six hours of videos prove it!" because "you don't need to see production samples and we don't either". Cannot figure out why the first porthole has such a tremendously thick gasket. Yes, it could be opened, but that gasket looks like it has a black eye. Might have been caught if there was a ...nevermind... those cost money, take time, require focus and probably won't result in corrections (even when things are point out before production) - but those cost money too.  The P2K and later updated WKW model appear decent enough and cost less. Hell, two Pennsy E8As for $399 (DC) vs. one Rap one for $339 (DCC)... huh. I do wish Walthers hadn't canceled the early HEP E's (Amtrak Phase I.. oooo). I'd be in for a couple of those puppies, but I digress. Anyone ever swap from the door forward on an older P2K model to get a better windshield area? (still cheaper and probably more accurate.).
(Pasted this from another thread I commented on, but it was recommended that I place it here, as it's E8 related)
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Post by onequiknova on Aug 18, 2022 17:15:02 GMT -8
I've vented enough on the "overlookings" and the E-unit fits the "it's MOST AMAZING and 1000% accuratest EVER!" or "our six hours of videos prove it!" because "you don't need to see production samples and we don't either". Cannot figure out why the first porthole has such a tremendously thick gasket. Yes, it could be opened, but that gasket looks like it has a black eye. Might have been caught if there was a ...nevermind... those cost money, take time, require focus and probably won't result in corrections (even when things are point out before production) - but those cost money too. The P2K and later updated WKW model appear decent enough and cost less. Hell, two Pennsy E8As for $399 (DC) vs. one Rap one for $339 (DCC)... huh. I do wish Walthers hadn't canceled the early HEP E's (Amtrak Phase I.. oooo). I'd be in for a couple of those puppies, but I digress. Anyone ever swap from the door forward on an older P2K model to get a better windshield area? (still cheaper and probably more accurate.). (Pasted this from another thread I commented on, but it was recommended that I place it here, as it's E8 related)
I believe Donnel Wells showed some pictures years ago of a P1K F3 nose swapped onto a proto E8. The P1K nose is a big improvement. |
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Post by cera2254 on Aug 18, 2022 18:08:22 GMT -8
I’m not sure I’d call censoring the internet and not allowing people to access YouTube as good leadership, but okay I won’t stray any further off topic.
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Post by fr8kar on Aug 18, 2022 18:17:15 GMT -8
What was it Abe Lincoln said about believing what you read online? A sucker is born every minute? |
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ictom
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Posts: 104
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Post by ictom on Aug 19, 2022 4:18:01 GMT -8
Wow! You guys are rough.  So, I did a little investigating ... Bill Snyder of Rapido Trains made an interesting video of their early sample for the E8, found on youtube here: There are some interesting shots included that explain how some of these things happened. Included are some 3D renderings. After watching their extensive videos on the Chinese operation (and one of ScaleTrains, too), it seems apparent that the 3D CAD models are created by the Chinese engineers and most likely used as the first series of checks with their customers (Rapido, in this case) to verify the design. We're not privy to any of this but having done 3D CAD since the mid-80s and having my own product fabricating experience with major mfrs (not with model trains, though), it's no doubt similar. The tone of the video in Bill's narration even makes this a better guess, because his narration is most concerned with identifying all of the differing features of the various railroad locos and how they've included all of those differences. This implies that the basic point-cloud-to-3D-CAD-model was already set and approved. Here's a shot of the various grab irons -  and here is the sample in that video -  You can see that in the EL sample above, there's a grab iron to the right of the headlight, but not one to the left. Hence, the grab irons in the 3D rendering are different colors on either side of the headlight. I thought perhaps the different colors might also indicate different materials, but not so. It could be that length is an issue, because both the door handrails and the curved grabs on the roof are plastic. That doesn't explain why the grab iron on the EL sample above the headlight appears to be plastic, though. Bottom line, we'd have to know Rapido's design philosophy to figure out why and where they change from metal to plastic with grab irons. The portholes are a CAD mistake and it's apparent to me that everyone missed it. It's possible the original Chinese CAD operator might've discerned the mistake, but there would've had to have been a lot greater knowledge about the loco on his/her part. Here's a couple of their renderings shown in the YouTube video:   What the CAD operator most likely did, was generate the hinged ring at front and back (correct), but then simply copied the combined cell, block, section (whatever their CAD system calls it), glass-with-ring and all, into the hinged ring. Thus, two superimposed rings. In looking at the renderings, though, it's extremely easy to just view these portholes as an opening with a border between two dissimilar colors, not an actual frame shape. Even looking at it now, the hinged ring with the red-bordered circle looks perfectly natural as simply the difference between colors. It's also interesting to note the interference issue with the Farr grille and the porthole at lower right. That's exactly what 3D renderings are intended to catch. In this case, that tab is probably trimmed during manual assembly at the factory, when the grill is attached (my guess). Anyway, to compound this visual error with the portholes, it's tragic that the early sample Rapido received was a version with blanked-out portholes:  Finally, about the cab window, re: square or rectangular. Finding actual engineering drawings of the E8 or E9 online has been impossible for me. There are drawings, but even then, who knows who made them and whether they're valid? I pulled out my Kalmbach Our GM Scrapbook (1976 printing - I've had it since then.) and found this in the back:  A closer look reveals that the cab windows behind the mullion indeed appear slightly rectangular:  These drawings are of the E9, of course, but should be valid for what we're discussing. It should also be noted that even though Kalmbach claims that these drawings are from EMD's actual specification books, it doesn't mean that these were the drawings that dimensioned the windows and were the source of their fabrication. In fact, what's really interesting is the front porthole: No hinged frame!!! |
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Post by jonklein611 on Aug 19, 2022 5:54:24 GMT -8
Included are some 3D renderings. After watching their extensive videos on the Chinese operation (and one of ScaleTrains, too), it seems apparent that the 3D CAD models are created by the Chinese engineers and most likely used as the first series of checks with their customers (Rapido, in this case) to verify the design. We're not privy to any of this but having done 3D CAD since the mid-80s and having my own product fabricating experience with major mfrs (not with model trains, though), it's no doubt similar. The tone of the video in Bill's narration even makes this a better guess, because his narration is most concerned with identifying all of the differing features of the various railroad locos and how they've included all of those differences. This implies that the basic point-cloud-to-3D-CAD-model was already set and approved. Excellent points, trimmed the quoted post down to save real estate. In my opinion, Rapido (and others) that are doing many versions / flavors at the same time would benefit from posting "virtual" samples, basically the 3D renders that you were commenting on, in various views. It would be a great time to catch mistakes and for modelers to provide additional input. Changes at that point are purely digital, so the costs of changes are relatively low. It's just the time for the CAD tech to make the modifications. No molds need to be redone or modified. Preproduction samples is almost too late in the timeline to catch / repair any major design deficiencies as they will have sunk costs in the molds. |
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Post by markfj on Aug 19, 2022 6:29:21 GMT -8
Section of what is reported to be an official EMD drawing of an F2. Would EMD have changed window configuration from this early model to the E8? Still searching for E8 EMD drawing.  Thanks, Mark J. Reading PA |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 19, 2022 6:48:08 GMT -8
Those EMD drawings are not fabrication drawings. Do not assume the guys building the locomotives were scaling off these drawings for guidance.
Those drawings are to illustrate major dimensions and/or placement and identity of components.
The drawings are likely very close to scaleable, being as the illustrator had to pick SOME dimension when he put pencil/pen to paper. But that was NOT the purpose of these drawings.
Ed
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Post by gevohogger on Aug 19, 2022 7:12:56 GMT -8
The drawings are likely very close to scaleable, being as the illustrator had to pick SOME dimension when he put pencil/pen to paper. But that was NOT the purpose of these drawings. +2
Sometimes, there's even a little disclaimer: "Do not scale directly from drawings. Work from dimensions". Like you said, they're close to scaleable.... But not necessarily 100% exact.
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Post by cr9617 on Aug 19, 2022 8:18:02 GMT -8
Are there any manufacturers that do their own CAD work? Is it cheaper to have the factory do it? Or will they not accept outside work? Seems like the best way to control that part of the process is to have someone with knowledge of the subject designing it.
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Post by Baikal on Aug 19, 2022 8:19:38 GMT -8
Section of what is reported to be an official EMD drawing of an F2. Would EMD have changed window configuration from this early model to the E8? Still searching for E8 EMD drawing. Thanks, Mark J. Reading PA
These type of "official" drawings are usually worthless at best. They were not to be used for manufacturing. Aka "Not To Scale".
The dimensions are likely ok, but the linework is literaly "artist's concept"-level and can not be assumed to be accurate. So it's pointless to use the linework for construction, model or prototype. Everyone's model (so far) of the GP30 is missing the plate near the roof dynamic brake fan because it wasn't on the drawings. This goes for all drawings, and maps. Taking dims from linework will, at some point in the process, lead to problems.
Look at the squar-y truck frame. The prototype bears little resemblence, but it does look like the truck used on the very early Proto units, later fixed.
The window is not dimensioned so it can't be trusted. If it's not dimensioned, it's a bad gamble.
I'm 99% percent sure the window & door area (except door window corners went from square to rounded) is the same on all Fs & Es.
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Post by jonklein611 on Aug 19, 2022 8:48:26 GMT -8
Are there any manufacturers that do their own CAD work? Is it cheaper to have the factory do it? Or will they not accept outside work? Seems like the best way to control that part of the process is to have someone with knowledge of the subject designing it. Most companies have the factory side do the CAD work. Remember these design files are directly linked to the mold files and there are design constraints due to the nature of mold making. The factory team is the one that has that experience. It would be on the Project Manager, with the prototype knowledge, to provide input for the design. |
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Post by Baikal on Aug 19, 2022 9:40:56 GMT -8
Are there any manufacturers that do their own CAD work? Is it cheaper to have the factory do it? Or will they not accept outside work? Seems like the best way to control that part of the process is to have someone with knowledge of the subject designing it. Most companies have the factory side do the CAD work. Remember these design files are directly linked to the mold files and there are design constraints due to the nature of mold making. The factory team is the one that has that experience. It would be on the Project Manager, with the prototype knowledge, to provide input for the design.
The Project Manager should also be the one signing off on all drafts & the final design.
There's no reason drawings can't go back & forth electronically between China and Canada untill the Manager OKs the final and it moves to production. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 19, 2022 9:54:57 GMT -8
If these are drawn by a guy in China, I am sure he does not yearn to release the drawings for production without getting approval of the guy(s) who will be paying him.
I'd even bet he keeps a record of the date and time of approval, and who it was.
Ed
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Post by jonklein611 on Aug 19, 2022 10:17:26 GMT -8
If these are drawn by a guy in China, I am sure he does not yearn to release the drawings for production without getting approval of the guy(s) who will be paying him. I'd even bet he keeps a record of the date and time of approval, and who it was. Ed Agreed. Although we have heard stories of the factory making changes on their own to make "improvements". The E8 was impacted by that (truck height), which caused a design redo. I've also heard mention of changes to make production's life easier and those aren't always communicated to the company paying for the product. Not a perfect world, and these are things that would be caught by in person visits. |
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Post by atsf_4 on Aug 19, 2022 10:56:19 GMT -8
Of course, the smart US manufacturer does all their own cad work here, using the exact same cad package as their factory. They also mold ALL plastic parts for their locos here in the US and ship them over there for painting and assembly. This way at least the parts on the body fit together correctly as intended most of the time.
Unfortunately some tooling is actually designed and produced in China, with portions of it getting lost when moved between factories, and there is also a model right now that was horribly tooled in China, that is in some kind of contract dispute, and will not/cannot be released without complete replacement of at least some tooling, which is apparently beyond the project's budget. That HO diesel may not see the light of day.
The model is not a Rapido project.
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Post by Baikal on Aug 19, 2022 11:13:10 GMT -8
If these are drawn by a guy in China, I am sure he does not yearn to release the drawings for production without getting approval of the guy(s) who will be paying him. I'd even bet he keeps a record of the date and time of approval, and who it was. Ed Agreed. Although we have heard stories of the factory making changes on their own to make "improvements". The E8 was impacted by that (truck height), which caused a design redo. I've also heard mention of changes to make production's life easier and those aren't always communicated to the company paying for the product. Not a perfect world, and these are things that would be caught by in person visits.
In my current business (over 500 projects using CAD), I've never met with a client or other team member while a project is underway. Five percent of projects I'll meet the client in-person to deliver hard copies because they are in a rush to move the project along, they can't wait for mail or courier. Many of the other people on the project team do the same. Work is mostly done via email, with phone calls in far 2nd place. Projects involve civil engineers, architects, finance, real estate people, and public agencies. Meetings and travel cost time & money.
Yet there are very few mistakes that don't get caught before completion.
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Post by atsf_4 on Aug 19, 2022 11:45:23 GMT -8
It seems incorrect to try to compare large public civil and/or architectural engineering projects, where the final project is the unique goal, to producing thousands of model locos, which is really more of a mechanical engineering task. On models, every little detail matters, whereas big construction projects utilize standard drawings often developed over many years by clients, and there are significantly more QA/QC checks on a big dollar construction project than on a comparatively little model loco design project.
If I was drafting on behalf of a manufacturer, which my father actually DID do, there is or would be a LOT more interaction with the project team members.
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Post by jonklein611 on Aug 19, 2022 12:02:39 GMT -8
It seems incorrect to try to compare large public civil and/or architectural engineering projects, where the final project is the unique goal, to producing thousands of model locos, which is really more of a mechanical engineering task. On models, every little detail matters, whereas big construction projects utilize standard drawings often developed over many years by clients, and there are significantly more QA/QC checks on a big dollar construction project than on a comparatively little model loco design project. If I was drafting on behalf of a manufacturer, which my father actually DID do, there is or would be a LOT more interaction with the project team members. And a lot easier to "sneak" changes into a model to make your life in production easier without someone checking your work. |
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