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Post by packer on Feb 10, 2023 9:56:16 GMT -8
I’ve already noticed a difference. I got a response the last time I sent a trouble ticket for a defective product. This time I didn’t, and sent them the defective decoder anyways (suggested to do so). It’s been a few weeks too, although I think it took a while last time.
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Post by locochris on Feb 10, 2023 11:08:58 GMT -8
That's some bad timing for ESU, as they really need an answer for Soundtraxx's Blunami to remain competitive I think. I heard version 2.0 is going to do the same stuff that RailPro does. Surely you're kidding. Soundtraxx is light years behind ESU in sound quality. Blunami is a gimmick. ESU decoders can be controlled with smart devices too. ESU decoders can be hooked up to batteries also. I don't want to derail this thread too much, but if Soundtraxx is so behind ESU in sound quality, why does Athearn use them in all of their locomotives and why do they have many people that swear by them? I personally use ESU decoders myself. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2023 11:11:53 GMT -8
That's some bad timing for ESU, as they really need an answer for Soundtraxx's Blunami to remain competitive I think. I heard version 2.0 is going to do the same stuff that RailPro does. Surely you're kidding. Soundtraxx is light years behind ESU in sound quality... Wow, guess you haven't owned or run any of the recent Genesis diesels then, as they work very well, and the Tsunami decoders in them seem to be close to Loksound, certainly not light years behind. The flashing beacon on the UP/ATSF (DDA40X and SD45-2's) maybe isn't quite as nice as Rapido's beacon but it works pretty well enough. I just bought a new BLI Paragon 4 diesel, and it does everything I'd want it to do in dcc from the start. I think everything: headlight, numberboards, class lights, beacon, etc. is on as soon as the dcc system recognizes the engine. The engine sounds automatically notch up as it runs, which is very noticeable, and imo it actually sounds better than the ESU Loksound 5.0 EMD 645-E3 sounds. I know BLI's speakers could be better than they are, but ESU is not as supreme as some people seem to think. The competition is upping their game which is good for all of us. |
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Post by richardthomasatal on Feb 10, 2023 11:54:18 GMT -8
Surely you're kidding. Soundtraxx is light years behind ESU in sound quality. Blunami is a gimmick. ESU decoders can be controlled with smart devices too. ESU decoders can be hooked up to batteries also. I don't want to derail this thread too much, but if Soundtraxx is so behind ESU in sound quality, why does Athearn use them in all of their locomotives and why do they have many people that swear by them? I personally use ESU decoders myself. Have you noticed Athearn is the only major company left that does use Soundtraxx? Atlas is ESU, Bachmann is TCS, Broadway is their own in house sound, Intermountain is ESU, Kato is ESU aftermarket installs, Rapido is ESU, ScaleTrains is ESU, Walthers is ESU. Seeing a trend here? They sound the same to me as they have for years and years with maybe a slightly better bass and equalizer. They do have more functionality but the sounds are still the same. Athearn even tried ESU in some steam, was on the verge of a full conversion to ESU and decided it was too expensive to convert everything plus some other matters occured that caused them to back away from ESU. |
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Post by rockisland652 on Feb 10, 2023 13:30:09 GMT -8
I don't want to derail this thread too much, but if Soundtraxx is so behind ESU in sound quality, why does Athearn use them in all of their locomotives and why do they have many people that swear by them? I personally use ESU decoders myself. Seeing a trend here? Yep. A trend in thin, weak ESU sound, regardless of who the manager or manufacturer is. The most recent example was on the layout last week: the much maligned Rapido E8. As usual, the ESU sound was weak and tinny to the point of being annoying. I had an example of the same unit with a Tsu2 installed and the difference became all too stark. You could barely hear the ESU sound. On the other hand I rather like the ESU Alco 244 sound, as that one is all high end chatter, perfect for a decoder that can't push bass. The horns still sound like they're three blocks away with the air compressor the loudest thing in the mix. That being said, I hope nothing nefarious was afoot at ESU USA. As I stated, I thought Matt was decent enough. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2023 13:50:39 GMT -8
If ESU hasn't updated their sounds in "years and years" (per one post above) then I definitely don't want their products, because quite frankly their 645 engine sounds seem to be lacking especially compared to BLI's latest efforts. I want to see continuous improvement, not staying the same as yesterday. To stay the same is to go backward.
Rapido E-8 sound? I already sold my one Rapido E-8 and have cancelled my other orders.
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Post by Christian on Feb 10, 2023 13:54:28 GMT -8
If ESU hasn't updated their sounds in "years and years" (per one post above) The most recent update I can see without looking very hard was LAST WEEK. You read crap from folks who just like to sling crap. |
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Post by sd80mac on Feb 10, 2023 14:35:54 GMT -8
Yep. A trend in thin, weak ESU sound, regardless of who the manager or manufacturer is. The most recent example was on the layout last week: the much maligned Rapido E8. As usual, the ESU sound was weak and tinny to the point of being annoying. I had an example of the same unit with a Tsu2 installed and the difference became all too stark. You could barely hear the ESU sound. On the other hand I rather like the ESU Alco 244 sound, as that one is all high end chatter, perfect for a decoder that can't push bass. The horns still sound like they're three blocks away with the air compressor the loudest thing in the mix. That being said, I hope nothing nefarious was afoot at ESU USA. As I stated, I thought Matt was decent enough. You are like the only person I ever see/hear of that thinks ESU is "weak". I hear Tsunami 2s and its the same, weak, tinny sound they've had for going on 15 years now. To each their own. The fact that they can't be updated already puts them woefully out of date. I'm pretty sure Athearn is the only thing keeping the lights on over there. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 10, 2023 15:36:17 GMT -8
I, and you, can go to the ESU website and listen to the exact sounds that will be in the decoder you buy. They are NOT "thin" or "weak". But then, when I'm listened to their website samples, I'm using some "real" speakers.
The last several Athearns I've bought, with the Tsunami 2, sound far better than the same locos from an earlier run (GP9's, for example).
It's the speakers, folks. Not the decoder.
Ed
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Post by riogrande on Feb 10, 2023 16:04:37 GMT -8
Many have notice speakers can make a big difference.
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Post by hudsonyard on Feb 11, 2023 0:17:36 GMT -8
ESU has superior motor control, beyond sound quality that is a #1 priority for a decoder i'm standardizing on. after working on the EQ and through a good speaker the tsunami 2 will sound fine but at this point i'm not buying anything with it installed from the factory, nor am i going back and installing them in anything. soundtraxx is much like NCEs DCC systems in it was a great product for it's time, but it has been surpassed by others, yet still remains reliable enough. it comes down to what you want out of the decoder.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on Feb 11, 2023 2:09:27 GMT -8
Many have notice speakers can make a big difference. Scratch that "can". Speakers make a big difference -- and here we mean the combination of driver and enclosure. Just like with HiFi or home theatre, you can have your preferences about electronics, but at the end of the day you won't get good sound if you're using crappy speakers and/or crappy speaker placement. |
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Post by alcofan on Feb 11, 2023 5:27:17 GMT -8
If ESU hasn't updated their sounds in "years and years" (per one post above) then I definitely don't want their products, because quite frankly their 645 engine sounds seem to be lacking especially compared to BLI's latest efforts. I want to see continuous improvement, not staying the same as yesterday. To stay the same is to go backward. Rapido E-8 sound? I already sold my one Rapido E-8 and have cancelled my other orders. ESU has 7 different versions of the 16-645E3 alone that they have released within the past several years. Please at least try to base your arguments on facts. I think most ESU and Tsunami fans can at least agree that BLI is terrible. One of their recent releases, the GP20, came with a non-turbo 567 decoder. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2023 7:26:59 GMT -8
I AM basing my posts on facts!!!!!!!
Yes, I too was disappointed in the GP-20, and I've been disappointed in the speakers in the BLI E units that crackle so badly. Also--they made a mistake, clearly, in that they apparently recorded a de-turbo'd GP-20. There aren't many original GP-20's left to record that are operational. All that I know of have been rebuilt. So sue them.
The BLI SD-45 is NOT like the GP-20, but better--and YES I also have a brand new ScaleTrains SD-45 on hand to compare it to DIRECTLY. There are some advantages to both models, and they look good together at least in blue and yellow warbonnet. BLI has FINALLY produced one engine that I personally could at least mention in the same breath as Genesis or ScaleTrains. Yes, BLI's rooftop fan screens are not as delicately rendered as ST, but both the Genesis and ST EMD fan screens will not take much handling without possible damage. I actually like that BLI has constructed a model that will accept a bit more handling than the highly detailed ST unit. There is a place for both. I had to glue a broken handrail on the brand-new ST unit. The BLI unit arrived completely intact and was stunning as soon as I put it on the layout in dcc. BLI's cab looks better than ST which has too prominent corner seams by comparison, as well as the seam below the cab.
Regarding 645-E3 sounds I HAVE sampled many different models that have the ESU decoder in them. I actually like what BLI has done with theirs, and the speaker noise is at least significantly reduced relative to their other diesels.
It may not be quite a Genesis level model yet, but is much improved over previous efforts, enough that I'm looking forward to the new SD-40 despite the price point being probably a bit high as compared to either ST or Athearn Genesis.
If you or others don't like BLI, well I really don't care. I've had my issues with their products in the past, and they are definitely on a better path now. I was trying to say something positive.
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Post by NS4122 on Feb 11, 2023 12:26:34 GMT -8
He's not the only one who thinks ESU sounds are weak. I am of the same opinion about their sounds. My ScaleTrains GE dash nines, despite having Scale Sound System speakers (which surprisingly made very little difference) have the weakest sounding horns and prime movers. On the other hand, the one Athearn dash nine I have has robust sound and a horn that can actually be heard over the prime mover. The same can be said for the two Athearn RTR SD40E's that I put LOKSound (and SSS speakers) in, pitifully weak and tinny. Yep. A trend in thin, weak ESU sound, regardless of who the manager or manufacturer is. The most recent example was on the layout last week: the much maligned Rapido E8. As usual, the ESU sound was weak and tinny to the point of being annoying. I had an example of the same unit with a Tsu2 installed and the difference became all too stark. You could barely hear the ESU sound. On the other hand I rather like the ESU Alco 244 sound, as that one is all high end chatter, perfect for a decoder that can't push bass. The horns still sound like they're three blocks away with the air compressor the loudest thing in the mix. That being said, I hope nothing nefarious was afoot at ESU USA. As I stated, I thought Matt was decent enough. You are like the only person I ever see/hear of that thinks ESU is "weak". I hear Tsunami 2s and its the same, weak, tinny sound they've had for going on 15 years now. To each their own. The fact that they can't be updated already puts them woefully out of date. I'm pretty sure Athearn is the only thing keeping the lights on over there. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 11, 2023 15:30:13 GMT -8
He's not the only one who thinks ESU sounds are weak. I am of the same opinion about their sounds. ESU has many sounds. The above quote says they are all weak, rather than only a subset. Now we get to more specific ESU sounds, as opposed to all ESU sounds. I have found at least some ESU horn sounds to be too quiet. I have yet to explore fixing that. And I shouldn't have to. I just listened to their -9 sound, and it is certainly not weak. I s'pose it could be wrong. But it sure could shake the room if I turned it up. And also likely bring down an upset wife from above. I think the later Athearn Tsunami's sound very very good. I figure that improvement happened around the Tsunami 2 and/or LED coversion time. I have two sets of Athearn stock Geeps, and the later ones sound MUCH better. On t'other hand, I pulled a Tsunami 1 out of a PC GP9B and replaced it with Loksound and Scale Sound and there was a dramatic improvement. I'm think the speaker was the key, as mentioned earlier. I've listened to both ESU sounds and Soundraxx sounds out of my desktop speakers, here. From THOSE speakers, the sound is more than enough to convince you a train's a-comin'. That's from BOTH brands. I'm not sure if every Scale Sound enclosure is equally wonderful. I just installed one in an old Athearn MP15AC, and it's MUCH improved. But there's an element in there that I don't like. I think I'll settle for that "MUCH improved". Ed |
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Post by cemr5396 on Feb 11, 2023 16:01:00 GMT -8
All the people ragging on Soundtraxx sound decoders for being flat and tinny have clearly either:
A.) never hooked up a decent speaker to one
B.) never tuned the EQ settings or equalizer on one
C.) all of the above
When you take a Soundtraxx TSU 2 out of the box and put it in a model or take a Genesis model with sound and put it on the track and do no adjustment to it, you are not even close to using all of what that decoder can do. It would be like chaining a couple concrete barricades to the back of a drag car and trying to make a pass like that. With an ESU decoder what you got is what you got, unless you put different files in it. As far as I'm aware those things are not adjustable. Both approaches work, I suppose, depending on what it is you want.
I changed all the decoders in my Bowser SD40-2s for Tsunami 2s, because they sound better to my ear than the stock decoders. Another member at my model RR club has a bunch of Bowser 40-2s as well, but his are all stock sound models from the factory. Everyone who consistently comes to run agrees that mine do in fact sound better, including the owner of that other set of Bowsers. And he spent 30 years working in a CP diesel shop - he is intimately familiar with what a 16-645E3 sounds like.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 11, 2023 16:27:46 GMT -8
I confess I'm pretty happy with the out-of-the-box sound of my recent Athearn (Soundtraxx) locos. Mostly I just turn the sound down and add a lot of momentum. Then I promise myself I'll come back later to do it right and proper. Someday.
Ed
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Post by fr8kar on Feb 11, 2023 16:33:37 GMT -8
So you can swap out the files in the ESU decoder. Has anyone tried processing the files for loudness, equalization, etc. then uploaded them again to compare the differences? It may require some iteration to optimize the files to the speakers but I find it hard to believe that the sounds can't be improved if they can be uploaded to the decoder.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 11, 2023 16:49:41 GMT -8
So you can swap out the files in the ESU decoder. Has anyone tried processing the files for loudness, equalization, etc. then uploaded them again to compare the differences? It may require some iteration to optimize the files to the speakers but I find it hard to believe that the sounds can't be improved if they can be uploaded to the decoder. Not THIS anyone, anyways. I've only just started to actually use the Lokprogrammer. One thing I learned right from the beginning: You CAN put any Loksound 5 sound file into your Loksound 5 decoder. I just picked the one I wanted and, uh, did some stuff. And it worked. I'm saving all that hard stuff for later (I DID mess with the various function outputs and mapping and stuff, and it did do what I wanted). High on my list is making the horn louder. I'm pretty sure that even if it's on max loudness, I can turn the engine sound (and others) down. Which'll give me the same thing, 'cause I never have the overall volume anywhere near full on. Yeah. Surely we must have someone here who "messes" with the ESU decoder. A lot more than I have. Ed |
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Post by NS4122 on Feb 11, 2023 19:04:29 GMT -8
The best sounding model I have is an Athearn RTR SD50 with the Tsunami 2 645F and the Scale Sounds dual speaker system. The low frequency sounds come out fantastic and there's a really nice bass to it. All the people ragging on Soundtraxx sound decoders for being flat and tinny have clearly either: A.) never hooked up a decent speaker to one B.) never tuned the EQ settings or equalizer on one C.) all of the above When you take a Soundtraxx TSU 2 out of the box and put it in a model or take a Genesis model with sound and put it on the track and do no adjustment to it, you are not even close to using all of what that decoder can do. It would be like chaining a couple concrete barricades to the back of a drag car and trying to make a pass like that. With an ESU decoder what you got is what you got, unless you put different files in it. As far as I'm aware those things are not adjustable. Both approaches work, I suppose, depending on what it is you want. I changed all the decoders in my Bowser SD40-2s for Tsunami 2s, because they sound better to my ear than the stock decoders. Another member at my model RR club has a bunch of Bowser 40-2s as well, but his are all stock sound models from the factory. Everyone who consistently comes to run agrees that mine do in fact sound better, including the owner of that other set of Bowsers. And he spent 30 years working in a CP diesel shop - he is intimately familiar with what a 16-645E3 sounds like. |
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Post by cemr5396 on Feb 11, 2023 19:29:51 GMT -8
The best sounding model I have is an Athearn RTR SD50 with the Tsunami 2 645F and the Scale Sounds dual speaker system. The low frequency sounds come out fantastic and there's a really nice bass to it. I have been using the Athearn dual cube speaker enclosures in all of my installs for the last bit and have been very pleased with them to say the least. They sound great and they are actually fairly cheap, less than getting two of your typical sugar cube type speakers from another source. I'm not sure how they would directly compare to a SSS speaker in performance but they are the best speaker being used in any factory equipped unit by a country mile, IMO. I've never used the SSS speakers in any of my installs, partially because if you are using Tsunamis you need two of them as you mentioned. They are optimized to be used with ESU decoders and those have less powerful amplifiers on them. Most Tsunami 2 decoders are running 2 Watts of power at 8 ohms to the speaker, while ESU runs 1 and 4, respectively. That is possibly one of the root causes of ESU's systemic weak horns, almost regardless of speaker. It takes a lot of power to create a horn blast that can realistically overpower every other noise you hear like the real thing does. On my Tsunami decoders I set virtually all sound effects to 50% or lower, and leave the horn at the default setting, which is around 90%. That gives a really nice mix of sounds and good overall volume while still giving really strong horn blasts and not overdriving the speaker. |
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Post by Mark R. on Feb 11, 2023 19:36:39 GMT -8
The best sounding model I have is an Athearn RTR SD50 with the Tsunami 2 645F and the Scale Sounds dual speaker system. The low frequency sounds come out fantastic and there's a really nice bass to it. Most Tsunami 2 decoders are running 2 Watts of power at 8 ohms to the speaker, while ESU runs 1 and 4, respectively. Not sure where you got the ESU ratings, but they are incorrect .... "The LokSound 5 decoder can play up to 10 channels simultaneously.Each channel can be resolved with up to 16 bit / 31250 kHz and finally offers hi-fi quality on your system. A Class D audio power amplifier with upto 3W output powers the speakers, which may have between 4 ohmsand 32 ohms impedance." Mark. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 11, 2023 19:49:53 GMT -8
My messing with locos has been limited to adjusting acceleration/deceleration and overall sound volumes. Not trying to eq them, and I definitely am not equipped to download updated 16-645E3 files and to then update them in the models.
There's still a lot I don't know about dcc. Even my local train store owner has not gotten into the weeds of modifying the sounds. It's more "does it work like the manufacturer intended it to?" Then ok.
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Post by cemr5396 on Feb 11, 2023 19:52:10 GMT -8
Most Tsunami 2 decoders are running 2 Watts of power at 8 ohms to the speaker, while ESU runs 1 and 4, respectively. Not sure where you got the ESU ratings, but they are incorrect .... "The LokSound 5 decoder can play up to 10 channels simultaneously.Each channel can be resolved with up to 16 bit / 31250 kHz and finally offers hi-fi quality on your system. A Class D audio power amplifier with upto 3W output powers the speakers, which may have between 4 ohmsand 32 ohms impedance." Mark. Most decoder swaps I have done from ESU involved 1W, 4 ohm speakers. If you hook a TSU decoder directly to that, two things happen: you blast the crap out of the speaker, and you over heat the amplifier on the decoder. The speaker because there is too much power and the amp because of the lack of resistance. "Up to" 3W and "between 4-32 ohm" is a wide range and my experience is they usually are in the lower end of that. If they can build a decoder that is capable of much more than that I'm not sure why they aren't. Or rather, why people aren't using them. edit: Those 3W/32 ohm decoders might be for larger scales or even outdoor type stuff. Soundtraxx makes a decoder with at least 4W (IIRC) for large scale stuff, not sure of the impedence of it but since this is an HO forum (mostly) I didn't mention it because it is not relevant. |
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Post by ncrc5315 on Feb 12, 2023 6:22:58 GMT -8
The standard 21 pin ESu decoder for HO gauge is 3 watts, 4Ω to 32Ω's of impedance. Those for large scale, i.e. garden railways, have two (2) 6 watt outputs at 4Ω to 32Ω's of impedance.
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Post by alcofan on Feb 12, 2023 7:38:36 GMT -8
I AM basing my posts on facts!!!!!!! Yes, I too was disappointed in the GP-20, and I've been disappointed in the speakers in the BLI E units that crackle so badly. Also--they made a mistake, clearly, in that they apparently recorded a de-turbo'd GP-20. There aren't many original GP-20's left to record that are operational. All that I know of have been rebuilt. So sue them. The BLI SD-45 is NOT like the GP-20, but better--and YES I also have a brand new ScaleTrains SD-45 on hand to compare it to DIRECTLY. There are some advantages to both models, and they look good together at least in blue and yellow warbonnet. BLI has FINALLY produced one engine that I personally could at least mention in the same breath as Genesis or ScaleTrains. Yes, BLI's rooftop fan screens are not as delicately rendered as ST, but both the Genesis and ST EMD fan screens will not take much handling without possible damage. I actually like that BLI has constructed a model that will accept a bit more handling than the highly detailed ST unit. There is a place for both. I had to glue a broken handrail on the brand-new ST unit. The BLI unit arrived completely intact and was stunning as soon as I put it on the layout in dcc. BLI's cab looks better than ST which has too prominent corner seams by comparison, as well as the seam below the cab. Regarding 645-E3 sounds I HAVE sampled many different models that have the ESU decoder in them. I actually like what BLI has done with theirs, and the speaker noise is at least significantly reduced relative to their other diesels. It may not be quite a Genesis level model yet, but is much improved over previous efforts, enough that I'm looking forward to the new SD-40 despite the price point being probably a bit high as compared to either ST or Athearn Genesis. If you or others don't like BLI, well I really don't care. I've had my issues with their products in the past, and they are definitely on a better path now. I was trying to say something positive. I guess sound quality is in the ear of the beholder, but I just can't understand how anyone who has spent any time around the real thing can be impressed by this. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 12, 2023 7:44:16 GMT -8
] You read crap from folks who just like to sling crap. Lots of that around these days...in everything. It's not enough to disagree or like something different but it becomes a flung-dung fest to submission....life is too short. Not a damned one of these toy trains sounds any where like the real thing. |
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Post by ncrc5315 on Feb 12, 2023 9:29:28 GMT -8
I spent 8.5 years around locomotives, and on the models, anything above idle is iffy. But I like to just have a fleet of locomotives sitting and idling, I find it relaxing. When I set the sound levels, unless you're right next to them, you not going to hear the mechanical sounds. The horn, I keep at a fairly loud level.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2023 10:49:04 GMT -8
If you are going to "quote" me, please at least do it correctly and have it be something that I actually said. That quote about crap was not something I posted, but someone else.
Yes, sound is in the ear of the beholder.
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