Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2023 17:38:39 GMT -8
The biggest problem with the SD45 is that they chose to copy the worst draft gear setup: Kato diesels. I simply can’t understand why if you have a choice you would design them that way when a kadee fits in Scaletrains draft gear that is almost scale.00 Which loco? I'm confused. I carefully trimmed off BLI's plastic springs inside their coupler box and then Kadee whisker couplers were a perfect fit drop-in replacement. Easy peasy even for a klutz like me. My biggest issue with both ST locos and Athearn (and Tower 55) locos is that so many of them have an essentially self-tapping screw through the coupler pocket into a plastic bolster that will be very easily stripped, such that then you'd have to use Loctite to hold the body on. Very cheap design feature, and I think it's crap. We pay a lot of money for these engines to then have stupid cheap attachment points that will not survive the occasional servicing. I have a brand-new Genesis GP9 that is going to need Loctite soon...and I've only been inside it twice (it had noises that needed dealt with). Other manufacturers have the good sense to have those mounting screws go into a metal frame which will last. |
|
|
|
Post by cera2254 on Feb 24, 2023 19:11:14 GMT -8
I guess I should have been more specific, I’m referring to the draft gear on the front and rear pilot. The BLI model is atrocious because they copied Kato’s design.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Feb 27, 2023 10:02:17 GMT -8
So the entire model is atrocious due to the oddball shape of the coupler pocket not being prototypically correct? Gee, what an objective review. It could be fixed if somebody wanted to. Doesn't look that hard to do at all. Since it's somewhat obscured by the plow and hoses, I don't know that I'd bother, but some might.
Btw, I did go online and watched some of the new product reviews as well as BLI's product release video, and I listened to the review comments both good and bad.
I also found some good videos of MRL SD45's working in flat out run 8 on Bozeman Pass (4 SD45's and one SD40-2 as mid train helpers). That was actually a great video!
Then I ran my Tsunami equipped Athearn SD45-2 against the ScaleTrains SD45 and the BLI SD-45. I would be interested to hear if the BLI rolling thunder under table speaker system would make a difference, but I don't even know of anybody in my area that even has it. My local store has only ever sold one, I believe he said. I would be very curious to try it, as what is missing relative to the prototypes is clearly all the bass sounds and the ground vibrating rumble, etc.
After watching the videos and playing with all 3 models, the ESU Loksound is indeed the best, but the Tsunami Sound SD45-2 is not bad at all by comparison, and BLI is in 3rd place. I bet if I actually invested in their full system, it would make a difference to get a lot more of the bass sound.
I think it is difficult to find good videos with sound of the real engines because particularly in California on both Cajon Pass and Tehachapi the videos are typically shot from a good distance away from the actual train, so the sound has already diminished quite a bit before being picked up by the microphones. This is because the tall grass of Tehachapi is filled with rattlesnakes (I was warned about this before going there and indeed we found a baby rattlesnake right along the road shoulder and literally right next to the American Society of Civil Engineers' monument). At Cajon, and even prior to 9/11 (I was there in June, 2001) the railroad police were very vigilant to keep you away from the tracks at Summit, and the terrain even along the access roads is quite rugged (not recommended to drive a rental car on though we did).
Standing atop the cut slope at Cajon Summit is indeed impressive, but sound-wise it is or was not for me the same for me as just parking behind the Station Mall (since torn down) in Altoona, just across the tracks from Alto Tower, and watching/listening to the (ex-EL SD45-2) helpers begin to shove on Conrail trains. The MRL videos I found by 7idea productions definitely captured the -45 sound as I remembered it from many locations in and around Altoona. That sound literally did affect your body; one could really feel the vibrations (and they mention that in the MRL video--that it felt you were being punched in the stomach at trackside).
|
|
|
|
Post by Gino Damen on Feb 27, 2023 16:53:40 GMT -8
I also have a non-sound ST unit that I'll need to add the dcc/sound decoder to. Hoping it's an easy drop in... I added sound to a non-sound ET44. IIt should be the same process. I didn't known at the time that inside the frame was space for the speaker. I just cut a part from the weight and placed a ESU 50340 dual sugercube speakerset on top of the frame. Sound wise I don't hear much of a difference between the factory equipped sound unit and my own conversion. It just saved me a lot of work because due to the wiring you can't get easily to the speaker cave. An image of my installment: flic.kr/p/2nqjNcd |
|
|
|
Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 28, 2023 17:42:49 GMT -8
I also have a non-sound ST unit that I'll need to add the dcc/sound decoder to. Hoping it's an easy drop in... I added sound to a non-sound ET44. IIt should be the same process. I didn't known at the time that inside the frame was space for the speaker. I just cut a part from the weight and placed a ESU 50340 dual sugercube speakerset on top of the frame. Sound wise I don't hear much of a difference between the factory equipped sound unit and my own conversion. It just saved me a lot of work because due to the wiring you can't get easily to the speaker cave. An image of my installment: flic.kr/p/2nqjNcdNice looking, neat, installation. |
|
|
|
Post by sd80mac on Mar 14, 2023 6:48:03 GMT -8
To the folks who think ESU is "so much better" than the other guys: I now have a new ScaleTrains SD-45 rivet counter model with the Loksound 5.0 to compare to the BLI Paragon 4 SD-45 model in person, and not in some YouTube video. The engine idle does sound better and slightly clearer with the ScaleTrains model. It also was a bit more expensive street price for me, $20 more, at $260. The BLI model has a much stronger sounding horn than the ESU-equipped ST model, easily twice as loud. The BLI model has a more prominent turbocharger whine which makes hearing the engine idle more difficult. I know; ESU has a plethora of different sound files for the 645 engines. Personally, I think I prefer the ST/ESU sound, though BLI's automatic throttle notching is certainly interesting in use on the layout. The engines on the layout do sound like they could be sisters despite the differences. ST has tri-colored class lights. BLI has only white. BLI has illuminated numberboards. ST does not have those. Both have operating Prime Stratolight beacons, though purists might prefer ST. BLI's is much brighter (perhaps would be a bit much for some). Overall BLI's lights are much brighter (perhaps ala MTH?) and some might want them toned down a bit. Surprisingly, both manufacturers have their engines set up to creep very well at low speeds. As they accelerate, at speed step 10/28 they will run and run without getting any closer or farther apart on my layout. Although I might need to adjust v min to get them speed matched properly, they are actually very well-matched right out of the box with NO cv changes yet. I could probably run them together and they'd do ok without too much fighting. I also have a non-sound ST unit that I'll need to add the dcc/sound decoder to. Hoping it's an easy drop in... The point of my post is that BLI actually has raised their game quite a bit. Their ATSF SD-45 looks (colors match almost perfectly with ST except the bold Santa Fe lettering on the BLI is just a shade darker yellow), lights, runs, and sounds similar enough to the ST unit that I for one will not be laughing at BLI. I would have no qualms about mixing them in service on my layout. Because my son is dead set on running modern stuff, I will probably pick up the other BLI road number at some point as they modeled the rebuilt SD45u version while ST model represents the mid-70's ATSF look. I'm caving on the modern rolling stock for the sake of my son (and not having 2 entirely different fleets of 60/70's versus much more modern). We do not have enough GEVO's around to make comparisons, but the Genesis 2.0 UP EMD units run and sound great despite being also from "the other guys" (Tsunami sound). I would never have the heart to make the ATSF units look like ragged out post-2000 survivors...That's the one line I can never cross. No offense, but comparing the BLI SD45 to, well, any other SD45 shy of the old blue box model is like comparing a Pinto to a Lamborghini. BLI makes O gauge trains for people that want to have O gauge trains in HO. I'm actually shocked the pilots don't swing. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2023 8:39:57 GMT -8
Did you ever even hold a BLI SD45 in your hands close up? Seriously? I'm not offended at all but your accusation that BLI only builds O gauge trains for people that want O gauge in HO is just inaccurate and laughable at best.
It's at least better than the Walthers legacy Proto 2000 model.
And perhaps you've never looked at any of the BLI brass hybrid steam power?
I did also just receive a Genesis 2.0 Tsunami 2-equipped C44-9W, and I have to say it beats anything from ESU, especially my brand-new U28CG's that have very weak ESU Loksound. The U28CG's are nice models with a cool alternate flashing light package, but the sound is just not good at all.
So I understand that a number of folks on here have drunk the Koolade regarding ESU Loksound, but seriously, just try to explain away the weak Loksound in the new Atlas U-boats. The new Athearn T2 engines are easily twice as loud out of the box, and you can actually hear their engine idle over the motor noise, unlike with Atlas. It's not that the Atlas motor is that noisy at all--it's typical of Atlas motors--it's that the sound is so very weak.
|
|
|
|
Post by edwardsutorik on Mar 14, 2023 10:49:24 GMT -8
Is the weak sound in the Atlas U28CG due to the ESU sound decoder, or is it due to poor choice of speakers?
If you pull the ESU and drop in A Tsunami 2, does the sound improve? Same speaker, of course.
Ed
|
|
|
|
Post by locochris on Mar 14, 2023 11:48:12 GMT -8
I have a SS speaker on order for my Atlas U28C because the sound was so bad. I'm hoping for a big improvement. I don't think you can blame that on the decoder.
|
|
|
|
Post by cemr5396 on Mar 14, 2023 12:17:59 GMT -8
Is the weak sound in the Atlas U28CG due to the ESU sound decoder, or is it due to poor choice of speakers? yes. As in, likely "a little of A, a little of B" Also yes. When I replaced the stock decoders in my Bowser SD40-2s, there was an immediate improvement even with the factory speaker and absolutely no adjustment of any kind. I had to replace the speaker because it was not suitable for use with the TSU2 decoder, but that is not the question you asked. YMMV. |
|
|
|
Post by cera2254 on Mar 14, 2023 15:50:02 GMT -8
I do think the draft gear ruins the model honestly, it’s why I steer clear of Kato anymore… The BLI SD45 is better than anything they’ve done yet, but the Scaletrains is still better. It bums me out that BLI is doing the SD40, but hopefully that won’t discourage Scaletrains from doing them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2023 18:59:07 GMT -8
At a train show this past weekend I had the chance to talk to someone who does decoder installations professionally. He said that ESU was not very good, particularly with regard to the lack of useful customer support, and that he always uses Soundtraxx Tsunami, partly because their customer support has just been better. Specifically he can call and talk to a real person and their manuals are just better. In my own personal experience, when I have tried to contact Loksound, I did get a response, but it was not a sufficiently understandable or helpful response imo.
I do like that the Soundtraxx Tsunami engines, at least for me, are simpler to work with so far as making adjustments.
As expressed a couple pages ago by others, I think that having the key person who seemed to be the American face of the company leave is a bad thing.
So far as the sound in the Atlas U28CG is concerned, it might be ok, and part of the problem I'm sure is the speakers they used. When others are now using dual cube speakers, I'm mystified that for the price point Atlas chose not to?
|
|
|
|
Post by edwardsutorik on Mar 14, 2023 19:25:01 GMT -8
I suspect most of ESU's problem here in the US is that they're a German company, and they view the US market as sort of a sideline to their REAL business.
I also suspect that there is a common German corporate attitude that any problems customers have with their product is because the customers aren't doing their part. They do NOT feel that the customer is always right. Nor do they feel they should make efforts to understand the needs of these customers. They feel they already understand them. Perfectly.
Ed
|
|
|
|
Post by Baikal on Mar 14, 2023 19:38:46 GMT -8
I suspect most of ESU's problem here in the US is that they're a German company, and they view the US market as sort of a sideline to their REAL business. I also suspect that there is a common German corporate attitude that any problems customers have with their product is because the customers aren't doing their part. They do NOT feel that the customer is always right. Nor do they feel they should make efforts to understand the needs of these customers. They feel they already understand them. Perfectly. Ed
"Franch is an expiremental condiment developed by the test labs of the Madrigal fast-food division."
...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2oEsP0euAI
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2023 20:31:27 GMT -8
Ed and Baikal--
Well said.
When I asked questions I was told to download ze lokprogrammer. So I did that. Great. What and how do you do with it? Wth.
Admittedly I got frustrated very quickly and just basically gave up, sought other avenues, and/or just made do with what I had.
Also--I love my local hobby shops I really do and I can't say anything bad about them at all--but they too are at a loss to be able to help me with ESU products. (Actually the local one told me we don't ever install it).
|
|
|
|
Post by locochris on Mar 14, 2023 20:54:33 GMT -8
If Soundtraxx is better than ESU like you guys are saying, why do most model train companies use ESU? Do you feel that they are ill-informed?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 14, 2023 22:09:31 GMT -8
Could be cost related. At one point in time at least one of the manufacturers did have some issues with Soundtraxx, some years back, and then switched to Loksound. Others then followed. Now we are several generations of Loksound past that point.
In my opinion, Soundtraxx was perhaps at a disadvantage for awhile, but they have clearly upped their game recently. The new Athearns sound better than those of just 2 or 3 years ago. I would say it is best to try them out in a store. The better stores still let you do that.
|
|
|
|
Post by schroed2 on Mar 15, 2023 0:39:39 GMT -8
I suspect most of ESU's problem here in the US is that they're a German company, and they view the US market as sort of a sideline to their REAL business. quite true well, there are enough reports that ESU is treating their german costomers with the same attitude. And yes, the usual german understanding of customer relationships is quite different from the US understanding. Some claim it is more accurate and honest...YMMV. |
|
|
|
Post by locochris on Mar 15, 2023 4:06:17 GMT -8
In my opinion, Soundtraxx was perhaps at a disadvantage for awhile, but they have clearly upped their game recently. The new Athearns sound better than those of just 2 or 3 years ago. I would say it is best to try them out in a store. The better stores still let you do that. Tsunami2 has been around longer for longer than 2 or 3 years though hasn't it? If the new Tsunami2 Athearns sound better than the old Tsunami2 Athearns, that indicates they improved the sound by other means, such as better speakers. |
|
|
|
Post by cemr5396 on Mar 15, 2023 6:15:20 GMT -8
In my opinion, Soundtraxx was perhaps at a disadvantage for awhile, but they have clearly upped their game recently. The new Athearns sound better than those of just 2 or 3 years ago. I would say it is best to try them out in a store. The better stores still let you do that. Tsunami2 has been around longer for longer than 2 or 3 years though hasn't it? Yep, I want to say 5 or 6 years now. They did. For a long time Athearn (and everyone else) was just using the same crappy 1" round speakers that everyone had been using since forever. And while some (notably Walthers) have refused to change, almost everyone else has, and Athearn has been going through their line one model at a time and redesigning the interior to accomodate their 'new' (it isn't really any more) dual 'sugar cube' speaker setup. As ATSF607 mentioned this has been happening for a few years now. I think they have redone most of their locomotives by this point. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2023 6:16:48 GMT -8
1. Athearn is now installing dual cube speakers in their latest run diesels.
2. I have an SD45-2 from just a couple years ago. It has a T2 decoder, as you said, that has been around awhile. However the sound files have clearly been tweeked since the SD45-2 was produced, because the new ready to roll SD40-2 sounds much better, and it's more than just the speakers. The sounds are different.
|
|
|
|
Post by cemr5396 on Mar 15, 2023 6:59:03 GMT -8
the SD45-2 and the SD40-2 have different prime movers, of course the sound file is different.
Considering the older SD45 most likely does not have the cube speakers, that is in fact probably part of the difference as well.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 15, 2023 8:09:43 GMT -8
Imo the sound differences are way beyond the 4 additional cylinders. The SD45-2 of only a couple years ago does not have anywhere near the powerful idle sound of the latest SD40-2, which again, as you alluded to, should not sound stronger than the 45-2, but it does.
So while the dual cube speakers help, I'd be willing to bet the latest sound files are just better.
|
|
|
|
Post by riogrande on Mar 15, 2023 8:29:19 GMT -8
Why don't you ask SoundTraxx and settle this once and for all.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2023 8:45:41 GMT -8
I've personally never dealt with them and I'm working overtime right now, so it's not like I have time during a normal workday to call them, plus I didn't think that was really necessary right now because:
I've been listening to the real engines in Youtube videos, and there isn't a whole lot of difference between SD40-2's running flat out in Run 8 on the 1.8% grade of Bozeman Pass versus SD45's and 45-2's running flat out in Run 8 on Bozeman Pass. (Those are the most recent videos I could find that were done up close at trackside and were done by 7idea productions such that the quality and clarity seems to be pretty darn good). Ovviously the 45/45-2 units have a bit deeper of a roar from the additional cylinders, but the SD40-2's really do not seem to be all that different on those recordings.
I've been trying to find the best video clips/sound recordings available rather than merely trusting my recollections of all those years ago when I was at trackside all the time.
Sound files in the models versus updated speakers? Your guess is as good as mine.
|
|
|
|
Post by sd80mac on Mar 21, 2023 5:22:56 GMT -8
Did you ever even hold a BLI SD45 in your hands close up? Seriously? I'm not offended at all but your accusation that BLI only builds O gauge trains for people that want O gauge in HO is just inaccurate and laughable at best. It's at least better than the Walthers legacy Proto 2000 model. Now THAT is funny. I own several BLI steam locomotives, including a brass hybrid. They are nice, but at the end of the day, they all have O-gauge like compromises. BLI's attitude has always been very Lionel and MTH-like due to their "This is our proprietary sound system, take it or leave it!". They are definitely more of a toy maker than a model maker, which isn't necessarily a good or bad thing. We'll see if they stick with this stealth line. And yes, have held their new SD45 in my hands. Better than most of their other diesel efforts, but to insinuate it's better than a Proto? LOL! |
|
|
|
Post by riogrande on Mar 21, 2023 5:49:44 GMT -8
I saw the release of the SP SD45. They are the first to offer it in the version I want with the correct SP details, but I was advised against it by an SP fan who is pretty particular about what he buys. So I'm still waiting for ScaleTrains to finally offer the most common version of the SD45, the version manufactured with the L windshield and high mount brake cylinders mostly in the 89xx-91xx number series.
|
|
|
|
Post by canrailfan on Mar 22, 2023 12:12:46 GMT -8
This topic seems to have moved a long way from the OPs topic title and post.
It's too bad it can't be split into a new topic that reflects the current discussion on decoder brands, speakers and sound preferences.
|
|
|
|
Post by csx3305 on Mar 25, 2023 17:52:19 GMT -8
There is a LOT of talk on the ESU facebook page about DOA decoders. I was wanting to start retrofitting some silent locos, but there’s been plenty enough anecdotal testimony about dead decoders to make me wait to see how things shake out. It will be a shame if the Herman departure turns out to be a jump the shark moment.
|
|
|
|
Post by crblue on Mar 26, 2023 6:00:46 GMT -8
It will be a shame if the Herman departure turns out to be a jump the shark moment. it already is. 6 months ago, no one would have dared say how much better a tsunami was over a LokSound. |
|
