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Post by Mark R. on Feb 12, 2023 11:09:28 GMT -8
There is a big difference in the sound of a locomotive whether you are in it, on it or trackside. Recordings are made right AT each individual sound source which will undoubtedly sound different if you are accustomed to hearing trains trackside.
Mark.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Feb 12, 2023 12:26:36 GMT -8
If you are going to "quote" me, please at least do it correctly and have it be something that I actually said. That quote about crap was not something I posted, but someone else. Yes, sound is in the ear of the beholder. Post changed to reflect properly attributed author, apology for hasty, incorrect quote… Yes, sound can be as debatable as correct color….
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Post by Deleted on Feb 12, 2023 19:23:12 GMT -8
Hi Karl--
Thank you very much for fixing it. No worries.
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Post by hudsonyard on Feb 12, 2023 19:48:56 GMT -8
guy at the club had a pair of the NW ones, they look nice, sound is not particularly impressive. If I was in the market for 45's right now i'd be looking towards the walthers ones.
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Post by Mark R. on Feb 12, 2023 20:05:29 GMT -8
I've been getting a kick out of all the brand bashing for sounding weak or tinny. I can guarantee 100%, the fault is not the decoder but the speaker. Hook any decoder to a full range 6, 8 or 10 inch speaker and you will find all the sounds are fully and faithfully reproduced. I almost lost a 10 inch speaker off the bench it was thumping so hard ! This wasn't through an amplifier either, just using the decoder's amplifier with the volume turned up to the max. The speakers are the problem with poor sound, 100% of the time. The two biggest pitfalls of these tiny speakers is that the enclosure is made of plastic and the internal volume is incorrect for the spl of the given speaker being used. For "sugar cube" speakers, the proper volume of the enclosure is surprisingly small compared to what is commonly used. A speaker needs to build some kind of internal pressure to work at its maximum efficiency. That little speaker will never build any back pressure in a one cubic inch enclosure. Cell phone manufacturers understand this and are light years ahead of us in design. Take the HTC One M8 with "Boomsound" speakers .... www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/htc-one-m8-speaker-comparison/I purchased a number of these speakers through ebay and had to tear one apart out of curiosity. The interior of the enclose is reminiscent of the old Bose sound wave design. There is even a tiny piece of batting at one end of the internal enclosure and even a tuned port. As they came, they really sounded good when mounted in my engines. You can actually see the little cone pulsing under good volume. Aside from designing my own wave design with a tuned port (beyond my skill set) I set to thing think outside the "box". Plastic is used for the enclosure because it is quick and easy from a manufacturing standpoint, but a very poor material for a speaker enclosure .... mainly because plastic resonates and can set up some undesireable sounds. They build the enclosure to fit a given space with no consideration of the volume efficiency of a given speaker, which they probably don't know anyway given they are probably bought in bulk for tens cents each with no specifications provided. For my first experimentation, I researched products that would produce the least amount of resonance. Lead was at the top of the list, so I gave it a shot and made an enclosure out of sheet lead. While it was a pita to build, the resulting sound was clear and solid. Not having the desire to start building enclosures out of lead, the next on the list was wood .... which understandably is why home speakers are primarily made from wood. I made a variety of enclosures using shipbuilders 3-ply plywood. The result was a pleasant warm sound with the lower frequencies more prominent with no hint of the so-called tinny response. So, in the end, the decoders are fine .... the speakers aren't. Try these in your home theatre system and report back how they sound. .... Mark.
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Post by stevef45 on Feb 13, 2023 5:50:10 GMT -8
I've been getting a kick out of all the brand bashing for sounding weak or tinny. I can guarantee 100%, the fault is not the decoder but the speaker. Hook any decoder to a full range 6, 8 or 10 inch speaker and you will find all the sounds are fully and faithfully reproduced. I almost lost a 10 inch speaker off the bench it was thumping so hard ! This wasn't through an amplifier either, just using the decoder's amplifier with the volume turned up to the max. The speakers are the problem with poor sound, 100% of the time. The two biggest pitfalls of these tiny speakers is that the enclosure is made of plastic and the internal volume is incorrect for the spl of the given speaker being used. For "sugar cube" speakers, the proper volume of the enclosure is surprisingly small compared to what is commonly used. A speaker needs to build some kind of internal pressure to work at its maximum efficiency. That little speaker will never build any back pressure in a one cubic inch enclosure. Cell phone manufacturers understand this and are light years ahead of us in design. Take the HTC One M8 with "Boomsound" speakers .... www.cnet.com/tech/mobile/htc-one-m8-speaker-comparison/I purchased a number of these speakers through ebay and had to tear one apart out of curiosity. The interior of the enclose is reminiscent of the old Bose sound wave design. There is even a tiny piece of batting at one end of the internal enclosure and even a tuned port. As they came, they really sounded good when mounted in my engines. You can actually see the little cone pulsing under good volume. Aside from designing my own wave design with a tuned port (beyond my skill set) I set to thing think outside the "box". Plastic is used for the enclosure because it is quick and easy from a manufacturing standpoint, but a very poor material for a speaker enclosure .... mainly because plastic resonates and can set up some undesireable sounds. They build the enclosure to fit a given space with no consideration of the volume efficiency of a given speaker, which they probably don't know anyway given they are probably bought in bulk for tens cents each with no specifications provided. For my first experimentation, I researched products that would produce the least amount of resonance. Lead was at the top of the list, so I gave it a shot and made an enclosure out of sheet lead. While it was a pita to build, the resulting sound was clear and solid. Not having the desire to start building enclosures out of lead, the next on the list was wood .... which understandably is why home speakers are primarily made from wood. I made a variety of enclosures using shipbuilders 3-ply plywood. The result was a pleasant warm sound with the lower frequencies more prominent with no hint of the so-called tinny response. So, in the end, the decoders are fine .... the speakers aren't. Try these in your home theatre system and report back how they sound. .... Mark. When the original Tsunami decoders came out in mid 2000's someone hooked it up to a home amplifier and speaker. The sound was amazing on 2 home speaker towers. So yea its definitely the speakers.
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Post by cemr5396 on Feb 13, 2023 7:09:34 GMT -8
"cell phone speakers are light years ahead of us in design"
yes, that must be why Rapido engines- which use cell phone speakers and have for years, have consistently such garbage sound. I must not be able to appreciate just how far ahead they are.
A well designed and properly enclosed cube speaker will blow a phone speaker out of the water any day of the week.
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Post by Mark R. on Feb 13, 2023 8:10:20 GMT -8
"cell phone speakers are light years ahead of us in design" yes, that must be why Rapido engines- which use cell phone speakers and have for years, have consistently such garbage sound. I must not be able to appreciate just how far ahead they are. A well designed and properly enclosed cube speaker will blow a phone speaker out of the water any day of the week. Where do you think those cube speakers come from ? You think they are actually made specifically for model trains ? Those little spring tabs on all of them are for mounting in CELL PHONES ! The Rapido version is from an i-phone which really doesn't have cutting edge sound. Have a cube speaker you think sounds good ? .... find its source. Mark.
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Post by severn on Feb 13, 2023 8:17:36 GMT -8
I've thought line out would be a useful pin to add to these sound cards. That is if you could figure out how to connect it to a better amp n speaker on the track somehow...
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Post by Mark R. on Feb 13, 2023 8:33:16 GMT -8
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Post by autocoach on Feb 13, 2023 9:03:02 GMT -8
Most irrelevant discussion to me as I am now mostly deaf and any tiny speaker sounds like static. I am a mostly steam era modeler so again these decoders are all oriented to diesel m modelers anyway. As to Bluenami, I am installing LocoFi receivers Android controller. Bit bleeding edge but I like it and am working on adding KA-3 Keep-alives to eliminate layout frog wiring. Batteries not yet ready for prime time.
As to the OP post. I am now beyond caring.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 13, 2023 13:40:30 GMT -8
It does seem that steam sound is weak. Some sound like there's an on/off switch for a white noise generator. And there's way too many that have the valve gear out of time, so's it "SOUNDS" more realistic. On MY railroad, we like to keep things nice and tight. And valive gear in proper adjustment.
Ed
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Post by Tower CK on Feb 13, 2023 14:02:10 GMT -8
I have performed a fair sound comparison with Tsunami-2 vs. ESU Loksound-5 on a set of (4) ScaleTrains SDL39's less than a year ago. Two units are factory equipped with ESU, the other pair, simply swapped out the 21 pin decoders with Tsu-2 21-pin boards.
So now we have the exact same, identical locomotive, speaker, & acoustics set-up. All units had the master volume adjusted to a lower, but nearly similar level. The result is the Tsu-2's produce more bass and sound more robust. The ESU is lacking bass and comes off sounding like the treble is turned up to high and thus, tinny. I shared this comparison with several friends who also listened, and all agreed the Tsu-2's sounded better.
What I find troubling on the ESU is the air compressor sound is too loud for the prime mover volume. I am unable to adjust that individual sound down on an ESU. If it is possible using a SprogII and Decoder Pro, please enlighten me.
Just sharing for those interested in my take on a true "apples to apples" comparison. Having done this, I disagree that it is just a speaker issue. I'm not here to convince anyone, but I know what I heard, and that isn't up for debate.
For me, the sound quality issue on ESU seems to be mostly on the EMD sounds. I have a Bowser Alco RS3 and a Baldwin DS-4-4-1000 equipped with factory ESU Lok5's and I think those sound better than Soundtraxx's equivalents.
I'll end with a question: Does ESU Lok5 have the ability like Tsu-2 to adjust "Prime Mover Pitch Shift" to eliminate that sine-wave echoey sound you get with MU lash-ups of identical decoders?
Thanks & regards,
Tom Wencl
♦ The Milwaukee Road ▪ La Crosse Division ▪ Third Sub ▪ October 1968 ♦
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Post by jonklein611 on Feb 13, 2023 14:19:18 GMT -8
What I find troubling on the ESU is the air compressor sound is too loud for the prime mover volume. I am unable to adjust that individual sound down on an ESU. If it is possible using a SprogII and Decoder Pro, please enlighten me. There should be a CV you can tweak for the specific sound slot (compressor). You can download / install the Lokprogrammer software without having a Lokprogrammer. Load up the sound project, make the changes and it can tell you what CV's to change to match the new settings.
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Post by Mark R. on Feb 13, 2023 14:39:14 GMT -8
I'll end with a question: Does ESU Lok5 have the ability like Tsu-2 to adjust "Prime Mover Pitch Shift" to eliminate that sine-wave echoey sound you get with MU lash-ups of identical decoders? Thanks & regards, Tom Wencl ♦ The Milwaukee Road ▪ La Crosse Division ▪ Third Sub ▪ October 1968 ♦ Yes, they do. I use it regularly in identical installs so multiple units in a lash up don't all sound identical. I also lower playback speed in all my prime mover sounds by ten to twenty points right from the get go. Slowing the playback speed speed also increases the lower frequencies giving it a much richer sound without affecting the overall prime mover sound. Mark.
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Post by Gino Damen on Feb 15, 2023 13:48:22 GMT -8
Yeah. Surely we must have someone here who "messes" with the ESU decoder. A lot more than I have. Ed You asked? Regarding sound levels. First thing you need to do is to go the soundssection and adjust the various volumes. I personally turn down the bell a lot (20%) and the prime mover (about 60%). On the other hand I set the horn at 195%. Depending on the engine you also have to lower the volume for compressor and other effects. All this is independent from the general volume. With adequate speakers you should only need a volume setting at 60% -80%. That is using a dual sugercube setup parallel. I prefer the ESU-cubes. I have used other brands, but they have a lesser sound. For enclosures I like to use the designs made by Gulf Coast Customs on Shape way (https://www.shapeways.com/shops/clearwaternscale). Another option which gives superior sound is using the Tang Band T0-2008S (=ESU 50344). The problem with that speaker is that it is big and in a lot of engines there isn't adequate space. Modifying the sounds is possible but you can't export sounds. You also need to take in account that most sounds have at least three components. The start, the loop sound and the end. It is very hard to get a clean transition between them.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 15, 2023 16:41:10 GMT -8
I did! Thanks, Gino. And also thanks to all you other folks for contributing to a serious and interesting discussion about sound. About "steam" sounds: They are indeed sorta white noise. Except when they're not. One thing is that steam exhaust sounds to me sorta "wet". WHAT? WET? Well, yeah. And sound emanating from the TENDER? Puh-leeze. I get that maybe steam isn't as popular these days as diesel. But it's a blemish on a manufacturer's good name to allow crap steam sound out there. Have some pride, folks!!! Ed
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 15, 2023 16:52:44 GMT -8
Mark's original post (the OP) does indeed bring up interesting ideas.
One might think that the sound of a (diesel) locomotive is different when you have your head stuck inside a "louvered door", as compared to when you're a couple of hundred feet away.
THAT is a very interesting point. I think.
Ed
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Post by rockisland652 on Feb 16, 2023 11:04:14 GMT -8
Mark's original post (the OP) does indeed bring up interesting ideas. One might think that the sound of a (diesel) locomotive is different when you have your head stuck inside a "louvered door", as compared to when you're a couple of hundred feet away. THAT is a very interesting point. I think. Ed The decoder maker who gets that 'ambient' prime mover sound the closest is TCS. Their horns and bells are also very good. I had a friend's TCS-equipped ICG geep in for speaker replacement and programming. The prime mover sound was obnoxiously good. It sounded like I was standing at a safe distance from the locomotive, but had presence. In the TCS Geep, the speaker required replacement because he blew out the old one. We made sure to lower the volume considerably when programming that engine. I find the discussion of speakers to be most welcome. In our experience, the speakers need to face outwards into a sealed carbody for maximium perceived bass. This effectively uses the carbody as a sound chamber. We will never undersand why manufactureres insist on leaving holes in locomotive shells. These holes let all the treble out and diffuse the bass into obscurity. Test this theory: Use black electrical tape to seal the carbody holes in a locomotive shell. Reassemble and listen. The tinny sound is reduced a bit and the perceived bass skyrockets. Or simply cup your hnads in front of your mouth and speak. Remove them and you will understand why the speakers need to face out and the carbody must be sealed.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 16, 2023 11:25:32 GMT -8
Interesting TCS. We hear so much about Tsunami and Loksound but not much about TCS.
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Post by stevef45 on Feb 17, 2023 4:06:31 GMT -8
I'll end with a question: Does ESU Lok5 have the ability like Tsu-2 to adjust "Prime Mover Pitch Shift" to eliminate that sine-wave echoey sound you get with MU lash-ups of identical decoders? Thanks & regards, Tom Wencl ♦ The Milwaukee Road ▪ La Crosse Division ▪ Third Sub ▪ October 1968 ♦ Yes, they do. I use it regularly in identical installs so multiple units in a lash up don't all sound identical. I also lower playback speed in all my prime mover sounds by ten to twenty points right from the get go. Slowing the playback speed speed also increases the lower frequencies giving it a much richer sound without affecting the overall prime mover sound. Mark. Could you possibly share how do you do that? Do you need the esu programmer or jmri to do it?
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Post by cemr5396 on Feb 17, 2023 9:03:41 GMT -8
I find the discussion of speakers to be most welcome. In our experience, the speakers need to face outwards into a sealed carbody for maximium perceived bass. This effectively uses the carbody as a sound chamber. We will never undersand why manufactureres insist on leaving holes in locomotive shells. These holes let all the treble out and diffuse the bass into obscurity. Test this theory: Use black electrical tape to seal the carbody holes in a locomotive shell. Reassemble and listen. The tinny sound is reduced a bit and the perceived bass skyrockets. Or simply cup your hnads in front of your mouth and speak. Remove them and you will understand why the speakers need to face out and the carbody must be sealed. That can vary from model to model, I think. I have had models where there were no holes in the body and the sound could not get out, and sounded muffled. Opening up the exhaust stack and the spaces under the fans helped with that. But I also did your trick of taping over the holes. Sound can get through tape much easier than the solid plastic, I suppose. Another thing that works quite well, on newer Athearn units with the dual cube speakers, is to put a piece of tape right over the opening of the speaker box. There is an air gap below the opening of the box and above the actual speaker so you can do this without taping the speaker itself down and preventing it from operating. This has the same effect you mentioned with taping shell openings, of filtering out the very high 'white noise' type frequencies and letting more of 'everything else' out.
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Post by Mark R. on Feb 17, 2023 9:33:51 GMT -8
Yes, they do. I use it regularly in identical installs so multiple units in a lash up don't all sound identical. I also lower playback speed in all my prime mover sounds by ten to twenty points right from the get go. Slowing the playback speed speed also increases the lower frequencies giving it a much richer sound without affecting the overall prime mover sound. Mark. Could you possibly share how do you do that? Do you need the esu programmer or jmri to do it? It is done adjusting two upper register CVs, so you need to set CV31 to 16 and CV32 to 1 first. The playback speed is adjusted using CVs 261 and 262. The default (100%) playback speed value is 128. Set both CVs to the same value. This is for Loksound decoders only. Mark.
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Post by stevef45 on Feb 18, 2023 4:43:28 GMT -8
Could you possibly share how do you do that? Do you need the esu programmer or jmri to do it? It is done adjusting two upper register CVs, so you need to set CV31 to 16 and CV32 to 1 first. The playback speed is adjusted using CVs 261 and 262. The default (100%) playback speed value is 128. Set both CVs to the same value. This is for Loksound decoders only. Mark. Awesome!! Thanks for the info. Still learning the cv stuff with the NCE constroller now that i've been running stuff again.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 14:44:11 GMT -8
To the folks who think ESU is "so much better" than the other guys:
I now have a new ScaleTrains SD-45 rivet counter model with the Loksound 5.0 to compare to the BLI Paragon 4 SD-45 model in person, and not in some YouTube video.
The engine idle does sound better and slightly clearer with the ScaleTrains model. It also was a bit more expensive street price for me, $20 more, at $260. The BLI model has a much stronger sounding horn than the ESU-equipped ST model, easily twice as loud. The BLI model has a more prominent turbocharger whine which makes hearing the engine idle more difficult. I know; ESU has a plethora of different sound files for the 645 engines. Personally, I think I prefer the ST/ESU sound, though BLI's automatic throttle notching is certainly interesting in use on the layout. The engines on the layout do sound like they could be sisters despite the differences.
ST has tri-colored class lights. BLI has only white. BLI has illuminated numberboards. ST does not have those. Both have operating Prime Stratolight beacons, though purists might prefer ST. BLI's is much brighter (perhaps would be a bit much for some). Overall BLI's lights are much brighter (perhaps ala MTH?) and some might want them toned down a bit.
Surprisingly, both manufacturers have their engines set up to creep very well at low speeds. As they accelerate, at speed step 10/28 they will run and run without getting any closer or farther apart on my layout. Although I might need to adjust v min to get them speed matched properly, they are actually very well-matched right out of the box with NO cv changes yet. I could probably run them together and they'd do ok without too much fighting.
I also have a non-sound ST unit that I'll need to add the dcc/sound decoder to. Hoping it's an easy drop in...
The point of my post is that BLI actually has raised their game quite a bit. Their ATSF SD-45 looks (colors match almost perfectly with ST except the bold Santa Fe lettering on the BLI is just a shade darker yellow), lights, runs, and sounds similar enough to the ST unit that I for one will not be laughing at BLI. I would have no qualms about mixing them in service on my layout. Because my son is dead set on running modern stuff, I will probably pick up the other BLI road number at some point as they modeled the rebuilt SD45u version while ST model represents the mid-70's ATSF look. I'm caving on the modern rolling stock for the sake of my son (and not having 2 entirely different fleets of 60/70's versus much more modern).
We do not have enough GEVO's around to make comparisons, but the Genesis 2.0 UP EMD units run and sound great despite being also from "the other guys" (Tsunami sound).
I would never have the heart to make the ATSF units look like ragged out post-2000 survivors...That's the one line I can never cross.
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Post by crblue on Feb 23, 2023 16:24:56 GMT -8
Are you sure that the number boards aren't lighted, and not just off? I can't see Scale Trains missing that.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 23, 2023 21:08:11 GMT -8
I checked and double-checked. Not only are the number boards off, there is no function for them listed in the instructions.
Although the model is brand new, it was allegedly in the country in January, 2021, according to ST website, so it is really production from 2 years ago plus...
Except their Gevo's, if I recall correctly, DO have illuminated number boards.
Also, BLI took the time to get the correct font for their illuminated Santa Fe number boards, which not all manufacturers have done. They look really good.
I know that most will say the ST rivet counter model is nicer, but the good news (for those of us who have other BLI engines pre-ordered) is that BLI is coming up.
Any day now my dealer will get two Atlas U28CG's for me (one in each ATSF scheme) and an Athearn ATSF SD40-2, all with dcc/sound. If I don''t like any of those, I can put them out in the store to see if they sell and then I'd be out of them. (I have credit from consignment sales to cover them all).
The red/silver Tyco ATSF C-430 from all those years ago really should have been a U28CG. It's where they got the paint scheme...so although I long since got rid of all the Tyco, there is a sentimental value there which is why I ordered the Atlas units.
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Post by cera2254 on Feb 24, 2023 9:26:09 GMT -8
The biggest problem with the SD45 is that they chose to copy the worst draft gear setup: Kato diesels. I simply can’t understand why if you have a choice you would design them that way when a kadee fits in Scaletrains draft gear that is almost scale.00
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Post by NS4122 on Feb 24, 2023 11:35:32 GMT -8
For the SD45, the lighted number boards are on AUX 1 and should come on when you press F8 to start the prime mover. I checked and double-checked. Not only are the number boards off, there is no function for them listed in the instructions. Although the model is brand new, it was allegedly in the country in January, 2021, according to ST website, so it is really production from 2 years ago plus... Except their Gevo's, if I recall correctly, DO have illuminated number boards. Also, BLI took the time to get the correct font for their illuminated Santa Fe number boards, which not all manufacturers have done. They look really good. I know that most will say the ST rivet counter model is nicer, but the good news (for those of us who have other BLI engines pre-ordered) is that BLI is coming up. Any day now my dealer will get two Atlas U28CG's for me (one in each ATSF scheme) and an Athearn ATSF SD40-2, all with dcc/sound. If I don''t like any of those, I can put them out in the store to see if they sell and then I'd be out of them. (I have credit from consignment sales to cover them all). The red/silver Tyco ATSF C-430 from all those years ago really should have been a U28CG. It's where they got the paint scheme...so although I long since got rid of all the Tyco, there is a sentimental value there which is why I ordered the Atlas units.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2023 17:31:30 GMT -8
Pretty sure mine do not come on with the prime mover but can check again.
Edit: Ok, they do come on with the sound, but they are dim so hard to tell they are on or off.
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