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Post by csx3305 on Mar 26, 2023 6:06:27 GMT -8
But Matt was dimissed only about two months ago.
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Post by riogrande on Mar 26, 2023 7:01:50 GMT -8
it already is. 6 months ago, no one would have dared say how much better a tsunami was over a LokSound. It depends one engine sounds. Some do sound better from Loksound. Tsunami does EMD pretty well. |
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Post by csx3305 on Mar 26, 2023 7:06:16 GMT -8
ESU’s GE prime mover sounds blow the Tsunami out of the water. They’re not even in the same universe.
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Post by cemr5396 on Mar 27, 2023 10:13:25 GMT -8
It will be a shame if the Herman departure turns out to be a jump the shark moment. it already is. 6 months ago, no one would have dared say how much better a tsunami was over a LokSound. sure they would. I've been saying it for years. None of what people are saying right now comparing the two of them is any different than what people were saying a year or two ago. I don't see how Matt leaving would cause any kind of big shift in things, at least not yet. Nothing has really changed in the big picture. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 6:00:54 GMT -8
I just received a brand-new latest production run ScaleTrains Loksound 5.0 ET44C4 for my son. The sound is only ok--actually very muddy and full of static, lacking in clarity.
The Genesis 2.0 C44-9W, with the few CV changes recommended by Brad, sounds WAY BETTER THAN the ST unit. Even comparing just out of the box sounds prior to CV adjustments, the Athearn Genesis T2 units sound cleaner than the Loksound 5 equipped unit.
It's a free country, and some will continue to drink the Koolade.
Also I note that the workmanship, assembly, fit and finish of the Athearm Genesis 2.0 units (I have 3 so far) are slightly better than ScaleTrains. In particular, the see-through screens are more neatly and cleanly applied on the Athearn units. The level of detailing is comparable to each other, and cosmetically they all do approach a true perfect 10.0. It is worth noting that the ST unit does have more of the delicate screens on it because it is the more modern prototype, so it is more difficult to get all of them to be perfect. The ST unit is larger and weighs more so I know it will pull exceptionally well.
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Post by locochris on Mar 28, 2023 6:18:34 GMT -8
I just received a brand-new latest production run ScaleTrains Loksound 5.0 ET44C4 for my son. The sound is only ok--actually very muddy and full of static, lacking in clarity. The Genesis 2.0 C44-9W, with the few CV changes recommended by Brad, sounds WAY BETTER THAN the ST unit. Even comparing just out of the box sounds prior to CV adjustments, the Athearn Genesis T2 units sound cleaner than the Loksound 5 equipped unit. It's a free country, and some will continue to drink the Koolade. I highly doubt that the decoder is the thing that is making the Athearn sound better than the ST. Most likely, it's a combination of a better speaker system in the Athearn and possibly the sound file recording is better. I do know that Athearn tends to use better speaker setups than other companies. I just think trying to convince people that one decoder is better than the other is pointless until we can use the exact same speaker setups and sound files for both. Which obviously is not possible. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 6:39:11 GMT -8
Noted.
However, I'm pretty sure the ST unit also has sugar cube speakers inside?
As a minimum, the CV settings of the Loksound 5.0 decoder need some adjustment just to equalize and clean up the sound. The sound from the speaker(s) is loud enough to be just fine.
The Loksound 5.0 units, regardless of manufacturer (ST, Atlas, Bowser), all run slower than the Tsunami T2 units. Just about all units will start moving at speed step 1, easily. However, the Loksound speed curve is unusual, whereas the T2 speed curve is very linear. I have not yet been able to satisfactorily match ANY Loksound 5.0 unit to ANY T2 equipped unit despite many hours of attempts. There is always some point in the speed range where one is pulling or pushing the other, which can result in wheelspin on the layout.
I have not attempted to speed match each and every single step. To do that I think I would need to know default settings of at least one of the units, and my system will not read back current CV settings--there is no place in the manual where it tells me how to do that, although I can get it to read current draw. I know that more than one manufacturer using Loksound 5.0 has the exact same speed curve because it is obvious in their instructions for Vmin, Vmid and Vmax. So I suspect the speed curves are all coming from Loksound themselves, but I don't know how things are supposed to work in between. Obviously acceleration and deceleration is being used.
The T2 does not seem to rely as much on acceleration/deceleration settings, at least not in the default condition. It seems simpler to adjust speed settings.
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Post by NS4122 on Mar 28, 2023 7:13:33 GMT -8
I have to admit that the Tsunami aftermarket GE FDL decoders do not have good prime mover sounds, but I have a new Athearn Genesis 2.0 Dash 9 that sounds way better than the ESU V5 Dash 9 even with Scale Sound speakers. I don't know if Athearn/Soundtraxx used a different sound file for these units, but they sound great and I don't see a need to upgrade the speakers.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2023 8:16:25 GMT -8
It seems Athearn used a new sound file in the Genesis 2.0 units. I may even have seen a blurb in the instructions that said they did that.
The best sounding ST unit I've heard is the ES44C4 version from a couple years ago (2019). They actually sounded fantastic with the very noticeable GE chug. Pity I didn't keep the pair (son wasn't into the modern stuff yet and I reverted to old school pre-wide cab era).
I do not do any decoder installations. Even to get that done, locally, would cost more than $150 just to obtain the correct sugar cube speakers and decoders, before we get into labor. So all my comments are regarding stock factory units. Anything not equipped with a sound decoder I can literally sell on consignment at my local dealer and replace with a new full-blown sound/dcc unit for less or nearly the same money as it would cost me to pay for installation.
It is now readily apparent that if I want sound, I'd better pre-order that way. My dealer is the one saying order them with the sound; it will be cheaper in the long run.
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Post by locochris on Mar 28, 2023 10:56:14 GMT -8
It's too bad SoundTraxx, ESU and TCS can't share their sound files with each other, or with their customers. I don't even know how they managed to get recordings for some of those, like the turbines for example.
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Post by Mark R. on Mar 29, 2023 10:55:19 GMT -8
It's too bad SoundTraxx, ESU and TCS can't share their sound files with each other, or with their customers. I don't even know how they managed to get recordings for some of those, like the turbines for example. The amount of time, effort and money each company invests in recording and creating their own sound files, there is no way they are going to freely share them with their direct competition ! Mark. |
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Post by csx3305 on Mar 29, 2023 16:03:46 GMT -8
It's too bad SoundTraxx, ESU and TCS can't share their sound files with each other, or with their customers. I don't even know how they managed to get recordings for some of those, like the turbines for example. i’d gladly settle for just the three of them coming to agreement on which F keys to assign the higher sound functions to. |
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Post by Mark R. on Mar 30, 2023 7:17:50 GMT -8
It's too bad SoundTraxx, ESU and TCS can't share their sound files with each other, or with their customers. I don't even know how they managed to get recordings for some of those, like the turbines for example. i’d gladly settle for just the three of them coming to agreement on which F keys to assign the higher sound functions to. Even within the same brand, that isn't consistent. Depends on the sound file for a given engine. A UP turbine sound file has considerably different sound functions than an SD40-2 and even more different than a GG-1 or a steam engine. Mark. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2023 10:03:06 GMT -8
I confirmed from the ST website that the ET44C4's do have dual sugar cube speakers so the muddiness I am hearing in the sound cannot really be blamed on the speakers but possibly on the Loksound sound files and/or lack of equalization in the sound settings.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Mar 30, 2023 11:33:24 GMT -8
I confirmed from the ST website that the ET44C4's do have dual sugar cube speakers so the muddiness I am hearing in the sound cannot really be blamed on the speakers but possibly on the Loksound sound files and/or lack of equalization in the sound settings. I just listened to the sound files, and I detected no "muddiness". The speakers I used are infinitely better than dual sugar cube speakers. Or any other speaker likely to be found in an HO locomotive. Ed |
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Post by Christian on Mar 30, 2023 11:42:15 GMT -8
I confirmed from the ST website that the ET44C4's do have dual sugar cube speakers so the muddiness I am hearing in the sound cannot really be blamed on the speakers Not all sugar cubes are good. And even good sugar cubes can be easily blown out. To begin isolating the issue you need to exchange this decoder for a decoder that has sound you like from another engine. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2023 12:19:08 GMT -8
I confirmed from the ST website that the ET44C4's do have dual sugar cube speakers so the muddiness I am hearing in the sound cannot really be blamed on the speakers but possibly on the Loksound sound files and/or lack of equalization in the sound settings. I just listened to the sound files, and I detected no "muddiness". The speakers I used are infinitely better than dual sugar cube speakers. Or any other speaker likely to be found in an HO locomotive. Ed Ok, understood. But how is that helpful when I was talking about HO locomotives? I'm saying the Athearn engine, out of the box, sounds a whole lot better, without futzing with changing out speakers and without futzing with a different decoder, both of which would cost time and money when one is looking to assemble a small fleet of locos and not just one. |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 30, 2023 13:07:09 GMT -8
I confirmed from the ST website that the ET44C4's do have dual sugar cube speakers so the muddiness I am hearing in the sound cannot really be blamed on the speakers Not all sugar cubes are good. And even good sugar cubes can be easily blown out. To begin isolating the issue you need to exchange this decoder for a decoder that has sound you like from another engine. True. Reportedly the ScaleTrains loco's come with sugar cube speakers and someone on TO replaced them with Iphone 4 speakers and improved the sound. |
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Post by cemr5396 on Mar 30, 2023 15:24:39 GMT -8
Not all sugar cubes are good. And even good sugar cubes can be easily blown out. To begin isolating the issue you need to exchange this decoder for a decoder that has sound you like from another engine. True. Reportedly the ScaleTrains loco's come with sugar cube speakers and someone on TO replaced them with Iphone 4 speakers and improved the sound. well that must not be saying much about the quality of the Scale Trains speakers. Rapido has traditionally used Iphone speakers in their models and routinely get criticized for having garbage sound - a complaint that I generally agree with. Considering both are using ESU they should be on an even ish playing field on that front. |
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Post by rockisland652 on Mar 31, 2023 7:46:22 GMT -8
Not all sugar cubes are good. And even good sugar cubes can be easily blown out. To begin isolating the issue you need to exchange this decoder for a decoder that has sound you like from another engine. True. Reportedly the ScaleTrains loco's come with sugar cube speakers and someone on TO replaced them with Iphone 4 speakers and improved the sound. Many locomotives sound weak, although it is for different reasons. While some decoders are better than others at the lower sound register (TCS, Soundtraxx), they ALL bring the higher sound register to the speaker. From simple physics, our locomotives have too much treble and insufficient bass. The problem is at the speaker and the general sound design of our locomotives. Rapido uses the same speaker in its E8 that they did in their SW1200. The designer should have used some of the cavernous space for something better, with a larger sound chamber. Until recently, they used the old iPhone speakers and housings taped into the locomotive {F59PH}. Their shells have extremely unhelpful holes that let the speaker sound straight out into the air. The E8 sound is laughably wimpy out of the box. replacing the speakers in the E8 with SSS speakers is a simple procedure and totally worth it. ScaleTrains uses a dual cube speaker. This would normally be an improvement, except that ScaleTrains wedges the speaker up into the frame. Their speaker housing is clamshelled in the metal frame, with both speakers pointed at the rear truck gear tower. This design lets the sound escape directly into the air. The latter day GE's sound like they have Alco 244's chattering in them and the GP30 hisses right out of the box. The sound design must be fixed. The wires for all the extra lights make replacing the speaker a nightmare, but doable. Plus, the replacement speaker needs to point up into the shell, requiring complete disassembly and a trip to the mill to open up the top of the frame/weight to let the sound up into the shell. If you skip this step, your bass will be dissipated out into the air and it audibly disappears. Locomotives don't whisper. They roar at full throttle and rumble at idle. JT Burke's speakers are a definite improvement (E8). Bowser's dual cube also can be used to great effect (GP30), but it must be modified to fit the space slightly. The improved speakers would work best with an improved shell design, but we can fix them ourselves. If your speakers point up into the shell, we can simply seal the shell openings that manufacturers love to tool into them (fans, exhaust, vents, even holes in the radiators!). The shell has to be sealed to create the largest sound chamber possible and maximize bass response. Yes, the treble will suffer a bit, but our decoders and speakers are more than excellent at providing more of that than we need. If you actually need more, some have onboard EQ to tailor the sound to the locomotive. |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 31, 2023 8:28:51 GMT -8
Here is what sixaxlecentury posted at TrainOrders last year: "ScaleTrains factory speakers absolutely suck. Iphone 4 speakers are still my favorite. They are a great value for the price." He also posted: "I have done countless installs for customers with them at this point, and everybody loves them."
So it seems opinions vary. Of course everyone raves about the Scale Sound Speakers; I think the issue for some is the total cost if you have a lot if engines to upgrade.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2023 8:58:48 GMT -8
Thanks, guys, for the excellent information.
My problem is that tearing these things apart and making changes like replacing speakers, etc. sounds like more work than I'm really comfortable or more importantly, competent, to do. Also the people available locally who can and do these types of jobs are telling me that replacing decoders and speakers gets expensive before we even get to discussing their hourly or task price to do the work.
I'm not going to NOT buy a ST unit based upon the sound, because some of their engines are fantastic.
I pick and choose whose model I buy based solely upon it being the best model of that particular item that I want, or else it might be the only one available in that paint scheme. My son agrees that the ST SD45 with all of its built-in lighting features (ATSF beacon plus tri-color class lights) is just plain too cool to sell, so I let him have it.
Thank you again.
I have all the engines I'd ever really need but am trying to make my son happy at the same time.
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Post by rockisland652 on Mar 31, 2023 9:39:09 GMT -8
Here is what sixaxlecentury posted at TrainOrders last year: "ScaleTrains factory speakers absolutely suck. Iphone 4 speakers are still my favorite. They are a great value for the price." He also posted: "I have done countless installs for customers with them at this point, and everybody loves them." So it seems opinions vary. Of course everyone raves about the Scale Sound Speakers; I think the issue for some is the total cost if you have a lot if engines to upgrade. Gotta do em one at a time. Although his speakers are habit forming. |
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Post by santafe49 on Mar 31, 2023 9:47:40 GMT -8
MRC decoders make noise too.
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Post by cemr5396 on Mar 31, 2023 11:02:30 GMT -8
MRC decoders make noise too. and also haven't been relevant in 20 years. saying that they 'make noise' is a perfect description because I wouldn't say they particularly sound like a locomotive. |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 31, 2023 11:06:40 GMT -8
Here is what sixaxlecentury posted at TrainOrders last year: "ScaleTrains factory speakers absolutely suck. Iphone 4 speakers are still my favorite. They are a great value for the price." He also posted: "I have done countless installs for customers with them at this point, and everybody loves them." So it seems opinions vary. Of course everyone raves about the Scale Sound Speakers; I think the issue for some is the total cost if you have a lot if engines to upgrade. Gotta do em one at a time. Although his speakers are habit forming. I am impressed by some of the video's with the SSS speakers. Eventually when I get time, I may be replacing some. Layout is my priority now with what little hobby time I get. |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 31, 2023 11:07:25 GMT -8
MRC decoders make noise too. and also haven't been relevant in 20 years. saying that they 'make noise' is a perfect description because I wouldn't say they particularly sound like a locomotive. Well, maybe 15 years. IIRC Athearn switched to ST in 2008. |
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Post by Gino Damen on Apr 1, 2023 11:40:47 GMT -8
ScaleTrains uses a dual cube speaker. This would normally be an improvement, except that ScaleTrains wedges the speaker up into the frame. Their speaker housing is clamshelled in the metal frame, with both speakers pointed at the rear truck gear tower. This design lets the sound escape directly into the air. The latter day GE's sound like they have Alco 244's chattering in them and the GP30 hisses right out of the box. The sound design must be fixed. The wires for all the extra lights make replacing the speaker a nightmare, but doable. Plus, the replacement speaker needs to point up into the shell, requiring complete disassembly and a trip to the mill to open up the top of the frame/weight to let the sound up into the shell. If you skip this step, your bass will be dissipated out into the air and it audibly disappears. Locomotives don't whisper. They roar at full throttle and rumble at idle. JT Burke's speakers are a definite improvement (E8). Bowser's dual cube also can be used to great effect (GP30), but it must be modified to fit the space slightly. The improved speakers would work best with an improved shell design, but we can fix them ourselves. If your speakers point up into the shell, we can simply seal the shell openings that manufacturers love to tool into them (fans, exhaust, vents, even holes in the radiators!). The shell has to be sealed to create the largest sound chamber possible and maximize bass response. Yes, the treble will suffer a bit, but our decoders and speakers are more than excellent at providing more of that than we need. If you actually need more, some have onboard EQ to tailor the sound to the locomotive. I have two ScaleTraines GE44's. One with factory sound and one where I added the sound. At that time I wasn't aware that there is space in the frame. So a placed the speaker simply on top of the frame and made room by removing a bit of the weight in the end. For the speaker a dual ESU sugarcube speaker assembly. I can't hear a difference between the aftermarket and factory speakers. I did tweak the ESU soundfiles which includes changing the individual volume levels and lowering the overall volume.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 1, 2023 23:07:10 GMT -8
On the Atlas/Loksound 5.0 U28CG, since I haven't been very happy with the sound, I took a wild guess and used the exact same equalizer settings that Brad has developed through extensive trial and error for Tsunami T2 decoder equipped locos.
Surprisingly, the same EQ settings fixed some of the issues with the sound in the U28CG. I'm not going to say it's perfect, but I was able to bring out the (missing right out of the box) low range sounds and in particular that GE 4 cycle chug that the U boats were known for. I still had issues with the high-end frequencies, so I lowered CV 230 through 232 slightly from Brad's settings, and I think that helped. I also reduced the volume setting CV63 from 192 to 150 and that helped to clean things up a bit.
I'm think the manufacturers need to do a better job of equalizing the low range sound frequencies before they put these models on the street. By just changing the CV's I was able to get the unit sounding a whole lot better to my ears, without monkeying with the speakers at all.
Now if I could just quiet down the rather noisy sound of the Atlas motor and mechanism above speed step 12 of 28, then I'd have something. It's way louder than any other motor in any diesel on hand. Just not what I'd expect from Atlas.
John
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 2, 2023 5:14:34 GMT -8
I just listened to the sound files, and I detected no "muddiness". The speakers I used are infinitely better than dual sugar cube speakers. Or any other speaker likely to be found in an HO locomotive. Ed Ok, understood. But how is that helpful when I was talking about HO locomotives? It's helpful because you can stop blaming the sound files and look elsewhere for the solution. Ed |
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