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Post by cemr5396 on Sept 24, 2023 20:47:28 GMT -8
I remember when Tru-Line trains botched the New Haven and Long Island C-Liners, although they made good on it and replaced all the shells, the company just never recovered and now sold tooling to Atlas. I assure you, replacing some locomotive shells is not what put True Line Trains under. The fact that both of the guys running it were complete asshats who had no idea how to run a company had a lot more to do with it. I've heard some first hand stories from some people who were asked to help with research on some of their stuff. Let's just say it was a minor miracle they ever managed to make a single model in the first place, never mind putting together a decent sized lineup over the few years they were operating.
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Post by prr 4467 on Sept 24, 2023 21:10:13 GMT -8
I have physically been there (at another importer, NOT Rapido) when models arrived. They sample a few of each item number and photograph them and post pictures on the website, but nobody has time or staff to inspect each and every model. Sure, Intermountain allegedly did it on big articulateds when they thought there was a concern, but under normal circumstances, nobody inspects each loco beyond whatever brief visual and test run inspection occurs at the factory. The models go from the factory shipping cases into whatever new boxes for shipping to the dealers. Some of the better dealers buy the locos in case lots, so all the importer has to do is affix shipping labels and send the cases out. (Boxes are typically labeled with the item number on them). Since ALL of any road are painted the same color, the fact that it was a bad match would be discernible when the first one was opened. Ed Hi Ed-- I'm not trying to argue with you but was only explaining what actually occurs, because apparently based upon other posts some people seem to think each item gets inspected when nothing could be further from the truth. I agree with you completely. Then again, the important thing here is that it's only a bad color match to those who think it is. If you are operating under the delusion that you are the best manufacturer and that you got your color samples completely correct already (oh--if you did any samples at all), then about the only QA/QC that will occur on cursory inspection of a few units at arrival is "are the blue areas blue and the grey areas grey? is the stripe where it's supposed to be". Then "ship them out."
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 25, 2023 5:43:36 GMT -8
I expect the point where each item would be individually inspected would be when each arrived at final packaging. There is where individual rejection should be happening IF the process allows for the 30 seconds it might take for the inspection, and IF the individual is adequately trained to do so.
Overall design mistakes should have been caught way before that. Or when you do your "unboxing" video and stare at a completed model for the first time.
Ed
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Post by cemr5396 on Sept 25, 2023 6:10:24 GMT -8
I just saw this somewhere else, this is the picture of the D&H RS11s Rapido has on their website. It was either over exposed or heavily edited to make it look lighter than the real models do. Anyone still think it is somehow some kind of 'mistake' when horribly flawed models get sent out? They know exactly what they are doing.
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Post by prr 4467 on Sept 25, 2023 6:27:35 GMT -8
The QA/QC that occurs, particularly in China, can be hit or miss at best. They let too many issues go as "that looks good enough". Arrowhead got burned on QA/QC specifically of the CNW yellow covered hoppers, because a significant percentage (but not all of them according to Blaine) were bad. Blaine did issue a complete refund to me for my 3 CNW yellow hoppers. Due to QA/QC issues Blaine was already in the process of switching to another factory, so he told me in an email, but that probably hurt his production schedule...and now he is where he is.
Because I'm picky I had actually picked through 40 diesel units at one importer to get one that looked good enough to me to buy, but now for me those days are over; I won't be able to do that ever again. I can tell you, having on multiple occasions picked through that many units, that there is a wide range of quality that comes from China, within the same batch of any one item.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 25, 2023 6:47:26 GMT -8
But let's not forget that Rapido has their own factories.
Ed
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Post by cpr4200 on Sept 25, 2023 7:21:52 GMT -8
I remember when Tru-Line trains botched the New Haven and Long Island C-Liners, although they made good on it and replaced all the shells, the company just never recovered and now sold tooling to Atlas. I just don’t believe that they will fix this issue, seems to costly to me There are still plenty of TLT C-Liners in circulation with the wrong shell. Most of the New Haven's I've seen on ebay have the 16 shell instead of the 24. The lettering doesn't look quite right on the green ones.
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Post by cpr4200 on Sept 25, 2023 7:25:50 GMT -8
I just saw this somewhere else, this is the picture of the D&H RS11s Rapido has on their website. It was either over exposed or heavily edited to make it look lighter than the real models do. Anyone still think it is somehow some kind of 'mistake' when horribly flawed models get sent out? They know exactly what they are doing. The image is pretty bright, but the colors still look "off" to me. Too light yellow, too dark gray and blue.
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Post by wmcbride on Sept 25, 2023 7:38:14 GMT -8
To resurrect my earlier question: Can anyone confirm if the NP and BN (NP patch) units have ground lights on both sides of the cab as reported on the BN units? Thanks, Bill McBride Bill, Yes, the NP units have ground lights on both sides. I would assume the BN patch units do as well .David Brockmeier Thanks, David! Bill McBride
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Post by prr 4467 on Sept 25, 2023 8:17:39 GMT -8
But let's not forget that Rapido has their own factories. Ed Yes, but aren't Rapido's own factories still located in China? The quality received seems to me to be generally on par (or perhaps sometimes worse than) the other Chinese factories. Other manufacturers share their factories, or at least have shared some of their factories, with multiple other importers. The one real difference is that the other guys pay for shipping of pilot models or sometimes even just the shells so that they can verify the paint jobs are correct before they proceed with production. Regardless of how many project managers you have, or don't have (in the case of companies smaller than Rapido) somebody still has to have a good working relationship with and good communication with the folks doing the assembly in SE Asia. You get out of the finished product that same quality that you yourself "designed" into it. If there are no finished pilot models, or no painted shell samples for review, then you get what you get. Rapido NEEDS TO INVEST IN factory painted and detailed pilot shells; there is absolutely no excuse whatsoever. If the little guys competing against them can afford to pay for this (and believe me, they DO), then most certainly Rapido can afford to pay for this, too. They just quite simply refuse to do so to their own detriment. Maybe I'm just a whiny malcontent, but I'm a whiny malcontent who has still purchased 20 or so Rapido diesels in the last 6 or 8 years (and subsequently got rid of every single one). I really want to like their products. The real question is how many diesels would I (and others like me) have bought if their quality was better? By NOT doing sample factory finished shells, they are leaving many potential sales on the table. Yes it costs money to set up and do samples but it is money well spent.
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Post by 12bridge on Sept 25, 2023 8:51:07 GMT -8
That photo is so washed out the yellow is damn near white.
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Post by blhs569 on Sept 25, 2023 14:08:53 GMT -8
Yes, the grey is way bad. They should offer replacement bodies. This concept has been mentioned by several folks, but I just don't see how it solves the problem. Its not just the shell that is the wrong gray, but the underframe, fuel tank, trucks and all the associated detail parts that are painted with the same crappy gray. Then you'll the same deal as the Atlas / Kato release of the 1990's - two different shades of gray on the same model. Everyone is suppose to stepping into 21st century technology, but what is being suggested regresses back 30 years!
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Post by cera2254 on Sept 25, 2023 16:00:49 GMT -8
That photo is so washed out the yellow is damn near white. Ugh this is just so silly. Just like the U25B, you can tool up a great model and then mess up what should be the easiest part: paint! I know paint matching can be difficult but when you already have comparison models that look “right” there really isn’t an excuse for something this wrong on a top of the line, top of the price range locomotive.
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Post by theengineshed on Sept 25, 2023 16:22:45 GMT -8
Ok, so my two DCC ready Seaboard units arrived today, #102 and #106. These comments are mostly cosmetic in nature, I have not opened one up yet or tried to install DCC.
102 had a detached drop down end platform that was easily reattached. It also had one long handrail with leaning stanchions. I drilled out the hole on the cab side wall so the hand rail could go deeper and applied some reverse english. Still a slight slant, but better. Also, oil all over the bottom of the trucks. It didn't go anywhere except on the limp plastic cover sheet, and those get tossed anyway.
106 had a brake cylinder that had come adrift in the packaging. That was easily reattached after I drilled out the hole in the cylinder. It is also missing a class light lens. I'm surprised I even noticed that was missing, even with 3X glasses they are hard to see without a reflection. Some kristal klear could be used in the hole, but I'm liable to forget and never notice it again.
I'm really quite pleased with these units. After comparing them to prototype SAL photos, they really look the part. The sun shades are in the parts baggie, I'm not going to fit them now, but they look fine. The long handrail over the couplers is also black, maybe the SAL painted them yellow after delivery, but that is really picking nits.
The last Seaboard units I purchased were a pair of Genesis Geeps with winterization hatches that had to be pried off. I pulled out a stored Genesis SCL F9 last week and discovered it had a phase 2 F7 panel on one side instead of a F9 panel. That had to be pried out and replaced with a spare from a Highliners kit.
I feel for the D&H crowd, but it appears the other 7ish paint schemes are correct, at least no one else has complained. The missing DB hatches on MC / PT units are available, although Rapido should have put the link to the form up on their website, preferably on the order pages for the specific unit. Maybe it is somewhere, with a cheeky "Free DB Upgrades" link. Not everyone reads this forum or follows FB.
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Post by wmcbride on Sept 25, 2023 17:01:40 GMT -8
Not that it helps D&H modelers but I think Rapido got the NYC units black correct ... :-)
Bill McBride
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 25, 2023 17:12:31 GMT -8
"Black"
Another upside of modeling PennCentral.
Last weekend at a Free-mo setup out here in California, one of my trains had a consist of C-430--GP9B--C-430--U25C, all PC. A rabid Santa Fe guy (I mean that in a good way) allowed as how the set looked very very nice. Train was half coil cars and half general freight. Trailed by an exquisite Tangent bay window caboose.
YUP!
This from a rabid SP&S/BN guy (me).
Ed
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Post by prr 4467 on Sept 26, 2023 8:07:29 GMT -8
NO, but wait. Then there are some who will argue with you about whether you have a Brunswick Green former PRR diesel merely patched/lettered PC, versus truly "black" painted engines. Then of course we have weathered/chalked black versus fresh black paint.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 26, 2023 13:57:29 GMT -8
Just picked up my BN one and two NP ones.
The imitation gold on the NP is very close, perhaps spot-on.
The BN green looks just right also, although it seems lighter and yellower under some lighting (5000K fluorescent)--might be the UV. That lighting stays away from the trains, mostly.
So. As far as paint colors, I do believe it'll work out.
Ed
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Post by JohnJ on Sept 26, 2023 14:51:09 GMT -8
NO, but wait. Then there are some who will argue with you about whether you have a Brunswick Green former PRR diesel merely patched/lettered PC, versus truly "black" painted engines. Then of course we have weathered/chalked black versus fresh black paint. And then those that will argue that Penn Central used DGLE instead of black on the units they painted.
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Post by cpr4200 on Sept 26, 2023 16:48:12 GMT -8
NO, but wait. Then there are some who will argue with you about whether you have a Brunswick Green former PRR diesel merely patched/lettered PC, versus truly "black" painted engines. Then of course we have weathered/chalked black versus fresh black paint. And then those that will argue that Penn Central used DGLE instead of black on the units they painted. Pretty sure the NS Penn Central heritage unit is painted DGLE. I've heard that's what the PC painting diagram they used said. Have never seen a freshly painted PC unit next to a clean Pennsy, but I always thought PC engines were black.
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Post by wmcbride on Sept 26, 2023 17:04:54 GMT -8
And then those that will argue that Penn Central used DGLE instead of black on the units they painted. Pretty sure the NS Penn Central heritage unit is painted DGLE. I've heard that's what the PC painting diagram they used said. Have never seen a freshly painted PC unit next to a clean Pennsy, but I always thought PC engines were black. The ones I saw in real life could have been either, I guess. However, underneath all that grime and dust, etc. I would just say they looked "black." Bill McBride
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Sept 26, 2023 17:36:29 GMT -8
That photo is so washed out the yellow is damn near white. Another issue viewing stuff on computers, washed out on YOUR system may be right on with mine.
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Post by locochris on Sept 26, 2023 19:14:22 GMT -8
The QA/QC that occurs, particularly in China, can be hit or miss at best. They let too many issues go as "that looks good enough". Arrowhead got burned on QA/QC specifically of the CNW yellow covered hoppers, because a significant percentage (but not all of them according to Blaine) were bad. Blaine did issue a complete refund to me for my 3 CNW yellow hoppers. Due to QA/QC issues Blaine was already in the process of switching to another factory, so he told me in an email, but that probably hurt his production schedule...and now he is where he is. Because I'm picky I had actually picked through 40 diesel units at one importer to get one that looked good enough to me to buy, but now for me those days are over; I won't be able to do that ever again. I can tell you, having on multiple occasions picked through that many units, that there is a wide range of quality that comes from China, within the same batch of any one item. Sorry to go off topic here, but I'm curious to know what the issues were with the Arrowhead CNW yellow hoppers.
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Post by Partial_List on Sept 26, 2023 19:35:35 GMT -8
The QA/QC that occurs, particularly in China, can be hit or miss at best. They let too many issues go as "that looks good enough". Arrowhead got burned on QA/QC specifically of the CNW yellow covered hoppers, because a significant percentage (but not all of them according to Blaine) were bad. Blaine did issue a complete refund to me for my 3 CNW yellow hoppers. Due to QA/QC issues Blaine was already in the process of switching to another factory, so he told me in an email, but that probably hurt his production schedule...and now he is where he is. Because I'm picky I had actually picked through 40 diesel units at one importer to get one that looked good enough to me to buy, but now for me those days are over; I won't be able to do that ever again. I can tell you, having on multiple occasions picked through that many units, that there is a wide range of quality that comes from China, within the same batch of any one item. Sorry to go off topic here, but I'm curious to know what the issues were with the Arrowhead CNW yellow hoppers. Sloppy assembly from the pictures I’ve seen. There was supposed to be a 2nd run of better quality. I guess they haven’t come about or may not ever according to another thread regarding Arrowhead. Quite disappointing.
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Post by locochris on Sept 26, 2023 20:28:20 GMT -8
Sorry to go off topic here, but I'm curious to know what the issues were with the Arrowhead CNW yellow hoppers. Sloppy assembly from the pictures I’ve seen. There was supposed to be a 2nd run of better quality. I guess they haven’t come about or may not ever according to another thread regarding Arrowhead. Quite disappointing. Ok, that's what I thought. I bought one of the few leftover at Trainworld not long ago and it was not assembled/glued very well.
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Post by prr 4467 on Sept 27, 2023 10:01:30 GMT -8
According to Blaine it was only a percentage of the CNW yellow hoppers that were sloppy, that "most" were good and that "most" people who ordered them were happy. He was in the process of switching to another builder in China, but that was for others that were yet to come. I believe there were other posts on these forums at the time saying what wonderful models they were and that some folks were apparently very happy with them at the time.
For that reason I am loathe to criticize Blaine. If he is somewhere in that hell of switching factories, that in itself is a big deal to have to navigate, and I think he'd only do it if he felt he had to to get the quality that he wanted in the finished product.
The 3 that I had suffered from general sloppy assembly such that I opted for total refund rather than replacement. I guess you could say I was skeptical of the others (that I have never seen anywhere).
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Post by cpr4200 on Sept 27, 2023 11:02:39 GMT -8
According to Blaine it was only a percentage of the CNW yellow hoppers that were sloppy, that "most" were good and that "most" people who ordered them were happy. He was in the process of switching to another builder in China, but that was for others that were yet to come. I believe there were other posts on these forums at the time saying what wonderful models they were and that some folks were apparently very happy with them at the time. For that reason I am loathe to criticize Blaine. If he is somewhere in that hell of switching factories, that in itself is a big deal to have to navigate, and I think he'd only do it if he felt he had to to get the quality that he wanted in the finished product. How did he handle customers who got sloppy cars?
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Post by prr 4467 on Sept 27, 2023 11:04:14 GMT -8
Sorry was interrupted from my break at work.
Total refund, no hassles; I think I actually got my money before he had my cars back in stock.
He offered replacement freight cars, but I chose the refund option.
When Blaine did the original 70-ton hopper cars, I purchased 10 total cars of 3 different road names. All were wonderful. They ran great and stuff did not fall off on the layout, despite my teenage son operating them in his trains. They held up exceptionally well (for a few years--we subsequently modernized to 100 ton hoppers and got good money selling the Arrowhead ones on the used market as most were absolutely perfect).
When Blaine did the Railgons, I purchased 3 and they were wonderful except one had one wheel that was improperly turned in China. It was simple for me to replace the one axle, so I didn't even bother contacting Arrowhead about that.
I'm sorry to hear that some folks are not or apparently did not receive timely responses from Blaine. That has not been my experience at all in the past. I would have no issues buying from Arrowhead again if/when they have a freight car that I needed.
(Lately I went crazy and bought 14 Tangent 86' autoparts boxcars for myself and a whole bunch of mostly Bowser 100-ton open hoppers for my son who loves hoppers of all kinds).
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Post by Partial_List on Sept 27, 2023 14:56:28 GMT -8
According to Blaine it was only a percentage of the CNW yellow hoppers that were sloppy, that "most" were good and that "most" people who ordered them were happy. He was in the process of switching to another builder in China, but that was for others that were yet to come. I believe there were other posts on these forums at the time saying what wonderful models they were and that some folks were apparently very happy with them at the time. For that reason I am loathe to criticize Blaine. If he is somewhere in that hell of switching factories, that in itself is a big deal to have to navigate, and I think he'd only do it if he felt he had to to get the quality that he wanted in the finished product. The 3 that I had suffered from general sloppy assembly such that I opted for total refund rather than replacement. I guess you could say I was skeptical of the others (that I have never seen anywhere). I don’t want anyone to think that I was trying to bash Blaine. My very first purchase was the Southern hopper directly from Arrowhead. Unfortunately, it arrived damaged but Blaine jumped to get it right and promptly sent a replacement. Since then I have thought very highly of Blaine and have added at least a dozen Arrowhead cars to my roster. However, I did decide to hold off on the first batch of 4600s due to the assembly issues. Hopefully Arrowhead can get things going again so they can offer us more great models.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 27, 2023 17:22:41 GMT -8
Got my RS-11's home yesterday.
Put a couple on the track today. A BN patched NP and a BN. I'd say they nailed the colors. All the parts are in place and "square". They run nice and smooth. And they used wire grabs!
The bad (so far): the radiator fan grill isn't square with the sides. It's my impression that they should be. I'm s'posin' that I can pop the grill off someday and fix it IF my fears are confirmed. As has been commented, a top shot of the fan is hard to come by. BUT: there's one on page three, and IT'S square.
And the fan does appear to have too many blades. Good news is you can't see it through the grill. You CAN see the fan through the grill on a Bowser RS-3. And THEIR grills are installed square.
So I'll take some points off for that, but aside from that, these are looking awfully nice!
Ed
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