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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 19, 2014 7:11:18 GMT -8
Bessemerkid-- Please verify your comments about the PC logo on the C-636's. Why? Because I read somewhere that the PC C-636's received a non-standard (squared off) Penn Central logo when delivered new. That may be in the one new Morning Sun book about the Penn Central power... Now, I'm not a Penn Central modeler, but I know Bowser has the Diesel Era Books on the Alco Centuries (they were actually printed locally to Bowser) and they use them religiously as reference material, along with any supplemental information they can obtain. Just because the PC herald on the U-boat photo shown is different from the C-636 does not make the C-636 wrong. Just please check it out. Mea culpa  I chased many alcos around Conway to Mingo Jct in the 70's, and do not recall the different logo, but pictures do not lie.
Of course most looked like this...
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 19, 2014 7:18:21 GMT -8
Bessemer: The lines across the top of the car are safety cables, not handrails. The sag is in there on purpose, clad, and have some give, so when the car doors are opened into it they are not damaged. The Autorack cars do look fantastic, and they will be updating them with side panels. Timing on the revisions was not provided. The first runs are early to mid 1960's models, the racks applicable to the later periods will be coming. The Athearn Genesis UP SD-70M flair's looked really nice, even "big Al" approved. The Bowser C-636's were the pre-production units, some changes were noted to Bowser, i9ncluding the PC mating worms issues, and they will be fixed. Ed, the beacons will be flashing on the production BN unit, the display unit had a blob of orange plastic. They looked nice. The handrails on the display units were mangled by 12PM when I saw them. Handling. The Moloco Santa Fe cars looked fantastic. As did all of their cars. Nick did not have a hopper on display. Just GATX RBL's and the pre-production Santa Fe cars. Biggest disappointment of the show for me was the U-25-C, has potential, but the hand rails KILLED IT FOR ME. Lots of stuff to look at. Bill Exactrail used very small wire rope for their modern bridges, that might work for the Athearn racks. No idea where to source it unless exactrail wants to offer it (hint, hint Blaine  The 636's were rare birds, I would see 628's, 630's and 430's a lot. The big 636's maybe a handful of times. I will definitely be ordering several! |
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Post by carrman on Jul 19, 2014 8:10:06 GMT -8
Bessemer: The lines across the top of the car are safety cables, not handrails. The sag is in there on purpose, clad, and have some give, so when the car doors are opened into it they are not damaged. The Autorack cars do look fantastic, and they will be updating them with side panels. Timing on the revisions was not provided. The first runs are early to mid 1960's models, the racks applicable to the later periods will be coming. The Athearn Genesis UP SD-70M flair's looked really nice, even "big Al" approved. The Bowser C-636's were the pre-production units, some changes were noted to Bowser, i9ncluding the PC mating worms issues, and they will be fixed. Ed, the beacons will be flashing on the production BN unit, the display unit had a blob of orange plastic. They looked nice. The handrails on the display units were mangled by 12PM when I saw them. Handling. The Moloco Santa Fe cars looked fantastic. As did all of their cars. Nick did not have a hopper on display. Just GATX RBL's and the pre-production Santa Fe cars. Biggest disappointment of the show for me was the U-25-C, has potential, but the hand rails KILLED IT FOR ME. Lots of stuff to look at. Bill but will Bowser fix the BN lettering? Dave |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 19, 2014 8:25:31 GMT -8
Some autorack pix    Source: swrails.com/2012/08/02/vintage-auto-racks/The cable sag is there, although not pronounced (understandable, as safety railings should not be too wobbly) Tough to make rugged in plastic, maybe thin wire would "sag" with normal handling? |
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Post by bdhicks on Jul 19, 2014 8:32:54 GMT -8
The good news is that it looks like it'd be easy to pull out the plastic cable and swap in wire or thread, although that just makes me wonder more why they didn't use wire or thread to begin with.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 19, 2014 8:37:06 GMT -8
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Post by JohnJ on Jul 19, 2014 9:40:48 GMT -8
Counterpoint on the Penn Central C636 worm: www.rr-fallenflags.org/pc/pc6335wbb.jpgThis is the same unit as depicted in the show report. While I do agree that some units show a more squared-off worm, the thing still just doesn't look right to me. I don't think there is enough space between the letters, in other words, too much white. Someone posted earlier Bowser is correcting the worms, so hopefully that will hold true. I wonder if it might be safer to switch my order to a unit with the small worm above the radiator. EDIT: Another good shot of a squared-off PC worm on a C636: www.rr-fallenflags.org/pc/pc6336cza.jpgAnd with regard to my earlier comment, is Bowser even offering the C636 with the smaller worm like the did on the C630? |
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Post by riogrande on Jul 19, 2014 9:57:23 GMT -8
Nice photo's of the N&W. Hah hah, I see what looks like 1971 Ford Pinto's on one of them. My first car looked just like the Pinto's on that rack, trunk rather than hatch back too. And the other looks like 1976 or 1977 Pontiac Trans Am's. They seem to be a favorite of Iranian college students back when I was at Sacramento State University in California.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 19, 2014 9:58:41 GMT -8
Ed, the beacons will be flashing on the production BN unit, the display unit had a blob of orange plastic. Interesting. On my GN S12, the beacon that Bowser said would be supplied wasn't even there, let alone flashing. So, I'll believe it when I see it. Ed |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 19, 2014 10:03:53 GMT -8
Yikes! Now we have both  But wait, there's more!  |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 19, 2014 10:20:40 GMT -8
I may buy undecs or repaint in the fetching conrail interim livery...  PC/Conrail transition era made CSX paint schemes look coherent  |
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 19, 2014 10:26:09 GMT -8
JohnJ, carrman, and others--
The models are not due till December, so there most likely is still time for revisions to the artwork before production.
I am most definitely not authorized to speak on behalf of anyone at Bowser, so I have no idea what they will or will not do on BN, PC or any other units. My comments are my opinions only, and nothing more. I won't see any of their people for at least a few weeks, so if you have comments to offer them, it would be best to contact them directly, as they do not actively monitor these forums (they don't have enough people to allow that). However, when people contact them, even through Facebook, or on the phone, they do listen and they do make revisions when necessary.
I'm not an Alco Century modeler anymore--I actually model Santa Fe, who to my eternal dismay, did not own any save a couple TP&W C424's (very briefly). I don't know what Bowser is or is not offering. It would seem to me that if there were known lettering variations, it would be cool (and would generate more sales) to offer them all at one point or another. With their other big Alcos, they have attempted to provide most paint schemes possible--even the patch paint jobs. I see no reason why they would do things any differently here.
Again, it is best to contact them directly regarding lettering concerns (or any other concerns) rather than for them to hear information secondhand (and have the chance of error).
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 19, 2014 10:58:50 GMT -8
It may well be that alco was given preliminary PC artwork, as later units from other builders were delivered with the more familiar artwork. As units were repainted (engine section on several 636's shows blistered paint), they got the official scheme. Like the red and white worms, some schemes were rare and disappeared quickly under paint or dirt.
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Post by carrman on Jul 19, 2014 11:31:33 GMT -8
carrman-- Only email I have (other than the retail store) is the one on their website: bowser@bowser-trains.com I'm pretty sure anything you send to that address will get read. You can always say "ATTN: Lee English" or maybe have a subject like "C-636 BN lettering issue - photos attached". Something specific like that would get their attention and they'd know it's not spam. Obviously, it'll be a few days after the show till they are home. Alternatively, sometimes folks have been known to call them directly over the phone and make constructive suggestions (which were implemented). You should be able to find the phone number on their website. Then ask for someone in new product development or for Lee himself. If it were me, I would want to be absolutely certain of the validity of any information before I contacted them. Is the lettering scheme on the model correct for as-delivered? Or not? If you have the applicable issue of Diesel Era, or their book on the Big Alcos, the question I would have is didn't the BN lettering size and/or placement vary over time as engines got repainted? The one image link above appears as if it might be a later image. I am aware the BN green varied considerably over time and based upon where units were painted, if delivered new, or if they were repainted in house. So just how consistently was the lettering placed? (I personally don't know, and am just throwing this out there). There were no "as delivered BN units". All were ex SP&S and all repainted by BN. Not questioning the green, as pictures have proven that could wildly vary! I'm questioning the squished road name, and the wrong lettering style for the numbers. Dave |
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 19, 2014 12:24:26 GMT -8
Question for anyone that went to the show...is it safe to say that with all the new announcements, that this is it before Christmas, or are there anymore surprises that were alluded to during the show?
My wallet (and wife) would like to know...
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Post by canrailfan on Jul 19, 2014 12:40:34 GMT -8
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 19, 2014 12:41:53 GMT -8
carrman--
Oops, sorry, forgot about that. My bad.
Maybe the wrong font was used by the supplier?
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 19, 2014 12:49:45 GMT -8
It may be better to hash things out on forums before calling Bowser.
Reduces multiple inputs and confusion for mfg. Just a thought.
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Post by icrr3067 on Jul 19, 2014 12:58:41 GMT -8
C636 will be out in sept, just talked to them at the booth and there will be no undecs.
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Post by bigblow69 on Jul 19, 2014 13:25:56 GMT -8
I'm surprised no ones mentioned it rides too high. The space between the frame side sill and the top of the truck looks a tad larger than the prototype picture. It won't be as noticeable on the other side. Still the ICRR ones look very promising except for that "thing" on the roof.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 19, 2014 14:18:55 GMT -8
It's surely interesting to see where the separation line on the BN loco lands at the cab corners--just above the handrail on the model--several inches above on the b&w prototype photo.
Ed
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Post by icrr3067 on Jul 19, 2014 14:25:57 GMT -8
The IC ones IMO the orange is too light, the lettering is too brown, should almost be black and the whole cab should be orange.
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Post by 12bridge on Jul 19, 2014 15:22:00 GMT -8
The handrails on the autoracks are WIRE. Not plastic. Look at the photo and you can see where it goes into the hole and is bent. I held it a few hours ago... Not sure why they are so wavy though.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 19, 2014 18:33:15 GMT -8
DGLE is darn near black anyway, add a coating of "eau de PC" (bucket of roadbed mud) and one would be hard pressed to tell the difference It's all good. (I do plan to drop them a note on undecs) |
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chuckc
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Post by chuckc on Jul 19, 2014 18:41:10 GMT -8
PC's C-636s were delivered in green, not black. Two classes of locomotives were ordered by the Pennsylvania RR or PRSL but delivered to the Penn Central in PRR Brunswick green aka DGLE (Dark Green Locomotive Enamel). Those are "Probably" are the only units delivered to the PC in green, but I'm not 100% sure. I need to see evidence of anything else. 15 C-636s # 6330 - 6344 delivered March-April 968. Ordered by PRR, the builder's photo shows the unit in green: www.pbase.com/espeef5/image/38993215Five GP38s # 2010 - 2014 delivered July-Aug 1970. Ordered by PRSL. They even have the yellow-ish PRR-type numerals. www.hebners.net/pc/pcGP38/PC2011.jpgStill looking for a true "painted by or for PC" unit in green. There was a big discussion of this on Train Orders and no one could come up with any photographic evidence. I'm not sure what evidence you have that PC's C-636's were delivered in Brunswick Green. Every picture I've see shows them in black. Wither's Alco Century Series says that they were delivered in black. Not sure if your builders photo shows the color to be Brunswick Green. |
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chuckc
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Post by chuckc on Jul 19, 2014 18:52:38 GMT -8
Yikes! Now we have both But wait, there's more! All PC 636's had the squared off logo according to Withers. And they show numerous pictures with the logo squared off. Even the above two road numbers in the above pictures had squared off logos as pictured by Withers. |
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Post by WP 257 on Jul 19, 2014 19:03:32 GMT -8
The IC ones IMO the orange is too light, the lettering is too brown, should almost be black and the whole cab should be orange. I'm actually also an IC fan, and I think just the image is a little bright. When I saw the pilot model in person, it looked like they nailed the orange. I don't want to see something too dark, or too brown in tint, like both Athearn's SD-40's and the Atlas GP-40's, which both were very "off" color (both were too dark but in varying ways). Besides, that orange did fade rather quickly...As for the brown lettering, I'm pretty sure they are going to darken it. In the case of IC motive power, Athearn and Atlas both need to fix their orange. Proto 2000 got closer imo with the U30B's and GP38-2's. Also, as I said above, the entire cab will be orange. They already know about that and are going to fix it. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 19, 2014 19:08:14 GMT -8
Entirely possible and probably probable that all were delivered alike. That does not negate the legitimacy of the standard PC logo. Both are correct. Hence the need for undecs for those who prefer the latter.   |
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chuckc
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Post by chuckc on Jul 19, 2014 19:43:29 GMT -8
I'm not sure what evidence you have that PC's C-636's were delivered in Brunswick Green. Every picture I've see shows them in black. Wither's Alco Century Series says that they were delivered in black. Not sure if your builders photo shows the color to be Brunswick Green. For evidence, see the photo. Look at the sheet metal inboard of the steps behind the long vertical handrail and you can see where the green body paint meets the black below. It's one piece of metal with two colors on it, not a shadow or a bend in the metal.  DGLE is so dark, it hardly matters- but they were with DGLE bodies. This was discussed extensively on Train Orders, and people finally came to the conclusion the two orders (see above) that were ordered by PRR & PRSL but delivered to PC were green. The DGLE paint spec apparently was not changed to black. This applies to these orders ONLY. This all started when I assumed ALL PC locos were delivered in black. (I'm not a PC modeler) After doing research I was surprised to find photos of the two classes of green units that were ordered by PRR/PRSL. I don't really want to go thru the discussion again, search TO for more info. Couldn't find the reference in TO. The photo in your link is also on the back cover of the Withers book. It is clearly black. Also on the front cover of the Withers book is a PRR Alco C630. It is clearly Brunswick Green. You can clearly see the difference in the two colors. Withers also claims that they were delivered in black. The PRR Railroad Pictorial also claims that both the C636 series and the U33C series which were ordered by PRR were delivered in PC colors. secure.witherspublishing.com/content/prr-diesel-locomotive-pictorial-vol-11-alco-and-ge-road-switcherAnother link says that two C636s were painted in Brunswick Green BUT before they were delivered they were moved back to the paint shop and painted PC black. cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/177983.aspxI hope you didn't send that email to Lee. I don't think that it's correct. |
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Post by canrailfan on Jul 19, 2014 20:43:44 GMT -8
I just noticed in the closeup photo of the Hi-Ad truck for the Bowser C636 that the brake cylinders appear to be molded in the applied position.
I think it would be preferable to have them molded in the release position.
David
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