chuckc
Junior Member
Posts: 57 
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Post by chuckc on Jul 22, 2014 19:31:20 GMT -8
Its black. Its black, I want my Penn Central Back Its Green. Its Green. Just the perfect sheen. What can I do. I just love Conrail Blue! LOL. Perfect. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 23, 2014 11:11:36 GMT -8
> No. I said way back on this thread that PC identified the color for all PC shop painted locos as Brunswick Green, but the locos were
> painted black. Not too hard to understand. Not sure why that confuses you. LOL.
chuckc is right about brunswick green being black. I lived in Peoria from 1965 to 1968 and saw alot of pennsy engines. The name brunswick green is a paint name but the color is black. I heard the shops men would put in a handful of green copper in a drum of black paint. No one has ever seen a brunswick green pennsy engine because they were all black. Pictures are distorted andpeople may think they saw green but they were coal black. Same with PC engines.
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Post by bigblow69 on Jul 23, 2014 12:16:49 GMT -8
So all Pennsy Steam loco's were black then?
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Post by Spikre on Jul 23, 2014 13:40:53 GMT -8
 the builders pic of the PC C636 seems to the eyes here to be the same Black as the NYC C430 Builders pics. if 2 of the C636s were 1st painted DGLE,then repainted Black they may look different after a downpour. but in regular lite they may have very black look,not a dusty green like the E44/50s had. only saw one PC/CR C636 in Toledo after dark,but saw many other PC units in the NJ Sunlite ,they were all rather shabby unless just delivered or shopped. Spikre 
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Post by bigblow69 on Jul 23, 2014 14:20:23 GMT -8
I may have to call in a few favors but I have access to an extensive library of books, builders photo's etc. I feel no matter what I find however that proves the case for green, some will not believe it.
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 16:00:15 GMT -8
So all Pennsy Steam loco's were black then? ALL OF PENNSYS' LOKS were black because Pennsy DGLE is black with a little green that cant be told from true black or coal black or even almost pure black. The name Brunswick Green is wrong and it looks black except under intense light. So yes they were a green so dark it was black. The same paint was continued on Penn centrals' loks which were DGLE which looks black. |
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Post by Spikre on Aug 16, 2014 9:28:33 GMT -8
 if Alco painted the C636s Black,thats what they were Painted. doubt that Alco would follow the PC practices that did include putting some Brunswick Green into Black paint to get rid of the supply on hand. one could see a difference with the NYC E7/8s painted at Harmon,they were Black,compared to the PRR units painted at Kearney which ranged from Dusty Green,to Murky Black. the PC C636 on the rear cover of the 6 Axle Century Book is Black,the C630 on the front cover is Brunswick Green,very easy to see the diferance. Spikre 
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Post by bluedash2 on Aug 16, 2014 19:12:03 GMT -8
To clarify - the PRR GG1's that wore the green were Brunswick Green. The diesels were DGLE as were all of the PRSL diesels even the GP38's. They were as described above - about a gallon of evergreen for every 5 gallons of black. If you look very closely, you can see the frame being a bit darker than the body. If you compare them in pics to NS diesels, you'll be able to tell that they're DGLE. Don't forget based on research, the PC heritage unit is DGLE not black. It does look black but has a ever so slight greenish tint to it, especially when the units weathered.
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Post by bluedash2 on Aug 16, 2014 19:13:15 GMT -8
And don't forget, the darkest shade of blue can also appear to be black at times. A weak example is the Chicago Bears colors- a deep blue that appears black.
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Post by bluedash2 on Aug 16, 2014 19:21:05 GMT -8
For those who may not know, and I didn't see it mentioned- DGLE - Dark Green Locomotive Enamel
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Post by Spikre on Aug 22, 2014 12:02:21 GMT -8
60s PRR may have used a formula of 1 Gallon Black,to 5 Gallons of Brunswick Green ? the Green GG-1s seemed Greener than the E44s about 1970. maybe the Wilmington Electric shop had their own ideas of how to mix paint ? most of the E44/50s in the 1970 time frame would still be wearing the Delivery paint that GE put on them, and were rather shabby looking. Spikre
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Post by bluedash2 on Aug 22, 2014 14:47:37 GMT -8
Spikre- the E44's were DGLE. Only the G's were Brunswick Green.
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Post by bluedash2 on Aug 22, 2014 14:49:15 GMT -8
- but they did look a lot brighter too. I heard this has caused nasty debates on other groups. :-)
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Post by keystonecrossings on Aug 22, 2014 15:10:34 GMT -8
The topic of DGLE and Brunswick Green has been researched heavily by the PRRT&HS.
The railroad's P&L diagrams call for DGLE -- Dark Green Locomotive Enamel -- for freight locomotives as well as passenger diesels until 1952. Various shops used various sources for paint to meet achieve the desired color. However, there were differences.
Brunswick Green was one vendor's internal color for the Pennsy's DGLE... pretty sure it was DuPont's.
So, Brunswick Green and DGLE are interchangeable, with the former being a brand's paint color name and the later being the railroad's specification.
If not Tuscan Red, any "green" locomotive would be DGLE, including the GG1. One thing that might make the G's appear different is that they were all serviced at the Wilmington shops where all the diesels were services at typically freight yard shops -- like Altoona, Enola, etc.
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Post by Amboy Secondary on Aug 24, 2014 18:12:09 GMT -8
E44s were maintained at Enola, GG1s at Wilmington Back Shop. Since paint was sourced locally, Wilmington Storehouse bought paint from a DuPont distributor. This lasted through the PC era, until Wilmington Back Shop became part of Amtrak.
Diesels maintained at Wilmington primarily Baldwin switchers, and Alco RS3s were painted with the same paint as was used on the GG1s. The green only reflected under certain sunlight conditions, otherwise everything looked black.
I spent a few years working in Wilmington, including as a Hostler both at the Enginehouse, and the Back Shop. There wasn't much painting going on after the merger. Mostly GG1s, a few Baldwins and a couple of Alcos received complete paint jobs, mostly it was patch painting.
FWIW: Enola spelled backward, spells Alone.
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Post by wabash2800 on Aug 25, 2014 15:02:34 GMT -8
The Central Valley double track bridge looks fantastic! I think they've been working on that model for a while. I seem to recall hearing it mentioned years ago. Dave Like their single track bridge, on the prototype, it's too light for anything bigger than a GE 44 Tonner or a small 2-8-0, but I suppose most modelers won't know that or care. I'm going to use the double-track one as a highway bridge.
The two photos are of an Overland bridge I painted and detailed for my layout. I added Micro Engineering bridge track and scratchbuilt timber guards and walkway planking from plastic. I also added hundreds of nut and bolt castings. The styrene was distressed and scraped with a fine toothed razor saw to get the wood grain and warping on the planking.
Victor A. Baird www.erstwhilepublications.com
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Post by drolsen on Aug 26, 2014 4:33:44 GMT -8
Thanks for the info, Victor - I wasn't aware of that. I have a couple of the CV single track bridge kits but have never built them or looked at them closely. I hope to some day be able to buy this Train Cat model of an actual bridge on the CSX line that I'm modeling, but to my knowledge, it's never actually been available in HO (the N and Z versions have been produced), despite being listed on their website for years: store.traincat2.com/pratt-double-track-thru-truss-ho/I may have to kitbash it from CV parts and styrene if it never turns up. Dave |
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Post by ambluco on Aug 26, 2014 6:47:03 GMT -8
Beware Traincat. He's not filling orders. I've got a dispute open with PP right now. He also has an "F" grade from the BBB. Thanks for the info, Victor - I wasn't aware of that. I have a couple of the CV single track bridge kits but have never built them or looked at them closely. I hope to some day be able to buy this Train Cat model of an actual bridge on the CSX line that I'm modeling, but to my knowledge, it's never actually been available in HO (the N and Z versions have been produced), despite being listed on their website for years: store.traincat2.com/pratt-double-track-thru-truss-ho/I may have to kitbash it from CV parts and styrene if it never turns up. Dave |
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Post by drolsen on Aug 26, 2014 8:01:30 GMT -8
Beware Traincat. He's not filling orders. I've got a dispute open with PP right now. He also has an "F" grade from the BBB. Yeah, I know he's had personal issues that have severely affected his responsiveness, to the point where he probably shouldn't be still accepting orders. I keep hoping to catch him at a show some day so I can buy his products in person without having to worry about whether I'll ever receive them. I'd like to buy 3 or 4 of his B&O 4-track signal bridges too, which are actually in stock, but I don't want to risk it. Dave |
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Aug 26, 2014 8:44:24 GMT -8
Victor, I'm intrigued by your statement of the Central Valley bridge being too light. I'll attach photos of a pin truss bridge that SD40T-2s with grain trains use regularly and the Central Valley bridge appears to be a heavier bridge than that. What is wrong with the Central Valley bridge and how can it be changed to be structurally sound? [/quote] Like their single track bridge, on the prototype, it's too light for anything bigger than a GE 44 Tonner or a small 2-8-0, but I suppose most modelers won't know that or care. I'm going to use the double-track one as a highway bridge.
Victor A. Baird www.erstwhilepublications.com
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Post by wp8thsub on Aug 26, 2014 9:25:06 GMT -8
I'm intrigued by your statement of the Central Valley bridge being too light. I'll attach photos of a pin truss bridge that SD40T-2s with grain trains use regularly and the Central Valley bridge appears to be a heavier bridge than that. What is wrong with the Central Valley bridge and how can it be changed to be structurally sound? The original CV truss bridge kit was based on an SP bridge over Piru Creek in southern CA, that was similar to many others on the SP. It can be easily modified to resemble heavier designs.  Here's the prototype.  The above SP span over the North Umpqua River on the Siskiyou line illustrates one variation with additional diagonal members. You can find a good selection of bridges and photos on Bridgehunter. The advanced search lets you narrow down by type of bridge (e.g. Pratt truss), year built, span, etc. bridgehunter.com/search/advanced/ . From there matching details can be straightforward if you have the parts, like some extra CV girders and styrene. |
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Post by wabash2800 on Aug 27, 2014 8:26:23 GMT -8
Tim: The original Central Valley single track bridge uses fishing line to resemble cables used on the prototype. Your photo is of a pin connected bridge with all steel members instead of cables. Pin connected bridges are very common on todays railroads. The concept was to facilitate quick construction. Though some of these bridges are WWI era, they still carry today's trains and locomotives.
However, I believe CV now makes several variations of the single-track bridge that includes heavier versions so you don't have to modify the lighter one.
The attached two photos are of an Overland, brass bridge I painted and super detailed on my HO layout. I added Micro Engineering bridge track, guard rails and timber guards plus hundreds of nut and bolt castings. I used styrene to simulate the wood by distressing it, mostly with a fine toothed razor saw. The planks were glued separately to a long piece of brass bar stock. I painted the wood with Star Brand paint from PBL and diluted India ink.
Victor A. Baird www.erstwhilepublications.com
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Post by Spikre on Aug 27, 2014 10:50:25 GMT -8
 sounds like if it isnt Hellgate Bridge,its too lite !! RRs go by the Weight Per Axle,not the overall bigness of the loco. nice bridge pics,Tim & Rob !! Spikre 
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 27, 2014 11:29:33 GMT -8
Note the tension rods on this nasty little old bridge!!! And note it's close resemblance to the Central Valley bridge! It's on the old SP&S mainline from Spokane to Vancouver. It regularly handles BNSF unit coal and grain trains. And did handle SP&S Z-8 4-6-6-4's back in the day. pix-park.com/SP&Sbridge.jpgEd |
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Post by jbilbrey on Aug 27, 2014 18:48:33 GMT -8
While they simplified the construction of older truss bridges, pin-connections served another purpose. They greatly simplified the calculations for the engineer that was analyzing the stress that the different members were going to be subjected to by live and dead loads. Another method that I've seen railroads employ to strengthen older truss bridges were to drive piles underneath to help carry the load. One such example is as follows: Toccoa River BridgeAnother southeastern railroad used the same technique to strengthen a 1907 truss bridge so that it could safely support ex-N&W Z-1's. Still later, the shortline that now operates over the line runs C30-7's, B39-8E's and B40-8's. James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 27, 2014 20:33:00 GMT -8
While they simplified the construction of older truss bridges, pin-connections served another purpose. They greatly simplified the calculations for the engineer that was analyzing the stress that the different members were going to be subjected to by live and dead loads. Another method that I've seen railroads employ to strengthen older truss bridges were to drive piles underneath to help carry the load. One such example is as follows: Toccoa River BridgeAnother southeastern railroad used the same technique to strengthen a 1907 truss bridge so that it could safely support ex-N&W Z-1's. Still later, the shortline that now operates over the line runs C30-7's, B39-8E's and B40-8's. James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN Wow, those piles sure ruined the simplifying calculations. Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 27, 2014 21:28:47 GMT -8
While they simplified the construction of older truss bridges, pin-connections served another purpose. They greatly simplified the calculations for the engineer that was analyzing the stress that the different members were going to be subjected to by live and dead loads. I suggest that they did not simplify the calculations at all. But they did guarantee that if there was a compressive load on one of the tension members, the bridge would fail. Well, not if it were, like, 20 pounds. But, hey, designer is supposed to be an engineer. You cannot simply insert a tension bar anywhere in a truss diagram, and arbitrarily decree the loads are tension. It goes the other way. You MAY insert a tension member where the calculations decree it. In fact, it WILL be a tension member, but it can be fabricated in various manners. And, yes, I have done truss bridge load calculations. Ed |
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Post by carrman on Aug 28, 2014 8:41:19 GMT -8
Btw, Bowsers web page shows the first order of C636's as being on the water to the US.
Dave
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Post by alcoc430 on Aug 28, 2014 10:08:47 GMT -8
Btw, Bowsers web page shows the first order of C636's as being on the water to the US. Dave Ah man, figures that the PC patched ones are in the second batch 
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Post by jbilbrey on Aug 28, 2014 20:51:38 GMT -8
While they simplified the construction of older truss bridges, pin-connections served another purpose. They greatly simplified the calculations for the engineer that was analyzing the stress that the different members were going to be subjected to by live and dead loads. Another method that I've seen railroads employ to strengthen older truss bridges were to drive piles underneath to help carry the load. One such example is as follows: Toccoa River BridgeAnother southeastern railroad used the same technique to strengthen a 1907 truss bridge so that it could safely support ex-N&W Z-1's. Still later, the shortline that now operates over the line runs C30-7's, B39-8E's and B40-8's. James Bilbrey LaVergne, TN Wow, those piles sure ruined the simplifying calculations. Ed
I'm not going argue with you there. The strengthening of the bridge was done sometime after the bridge was originally built. I wonder if even the original designer/bridge company was consulted during the modifications [probably not].
James Bilbrey
LaVergne, TN |
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