chuckc
Junior Member
Posts: 57 
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Post by chuckc on Jul 19, 2014 21:13:16 GMT -8
Couldn't find the reference in TO. The photo in your link is also on the back cover of the Withers book. It is clearly black. Also on the front cover of the Withers book is a PRR Alco C630. It is clearly Brunswick Green. You can clearly see the difference in the two colors. Withers also claims that they were delivered in black. The PRR Railroad Pictorial also claims that both the C636 series and the U33C series which were ordered by PRR were delivered in PC colors. secure.witherspublishing.com/content/prr-diesel-locomotive-pictorial-vol-11-alco-and-ge-road-switcherAnother link says that two C636s were painted in Brunswick Green BUT before they were delivered they were moved back to the paint shop and painted PC black. cs.trains.com/ctr/f/3/t/177983.aspxI hope you didn't send that email to Lee. I don't think that it's correct. How else do you explain the two colors shown in THIS photo? www.pbase.com/espeef5/image/38993215Again- Look at the sheet metal inboard of the steps behind the long vertical handrail and you can see where the green body paint meets the black below. There's one piece of metal with two colors on it, no shadows or bends in the metal or black on the trucks or underframe, etc. It's not too hard to believe that an order placed by PRR and delivered to PC came in green. This isn't heresy, stuff happens. And check out the 2011: www.hebners.net/pc/pcGP38/PC2011.jpgThat order even came to the PC with PRR-style ettering. There are some people who swear ALL PC units were delivered in green. That's clearly wrong, lots of photo evidence proves otherwise. Lee can see the green & black in the photo too. Those links you posted are hardly conclusive. A link to a book and this: " read a while ago alco had built c-636 alcos for prr pennsy, the first two were outside shop in pennsy green with keystones ready for delivery when penn central merger was approved, they were then moved back into alcos paint shop and painted penn central black with pc worms, has anyone got pictures,photos of these in prr green before they were repainted, did alco have company photos of these C-636 in pennsy green, please do not confuse with c-630 i know the difference as i have these by weaver in o gauge also worked on them and ran them in engine terminal for conrail when i worked for them in locomotive dept." Your image is a scan of a photo. Look in the dark areas of the scan for example just above the fuel tanks. There are purple and green stripes through out the dark areas in the scan. Even the black fuel tanks have purple and green in it. They are false. I have the real photo that is on the cover of a book. The real photo doesn't have the purple and green distortions because it isn't a scan. It shows the loco to be black. And as I pointed out on the same book cover is a real Brunswick Green on a PRR C630. You can easily see the contrast between the colors on the two locos. You are ignoring this and my other points. And I have no idea what you mean by heresy. LOL. I could care less about PC. |
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Post by icrr3067 on Jul 20, 2014 5:00:05 GMT -8
The IC ones IMO the orange is too light, the lettering is too brown, should almost be black and the whole cab should be orange. I'm actually also an IC fan, and I think just the image is a little bright. When I saw the pilot model in person, it looked like they nailed the orange. I don't want to see something too dark, or too brown in tint, like both Athearn's SD-40's and the Atlas GP-40's, which both were very "off" color (both were too dark but in varying ways). Besides, that orange did fade rather quickly...As for the brown lettering, I'm pretty sure they are going to darken it. In the case of IC motive power, Athearn and Atlas both need to fix their orange. Proto 2000 got closer imo with the U30B's and GP38-2's. Also, as I said above, the entire cab will be orange. They already know about that and are going to fix it. I also saw them in person and it's too light. Also the proto ones are way light. That's an icg orange. |
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Post by tom on Jul 20, 2014 7:03:51 GMT -8
Still looks black to me!
By the way The PC Post, the magazine published by the Penn Central Historical Society, had an excellent article on these locomotives.
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Post by onequiknova on Jul 20, 2014 7:12:03 GMT -8
www.rrpicturearchives.net/pictures/71437/Scan1094.jpggeodyssey, I see the color break your talking about, and was convinced, but looking at the photo above, there isn't a sheet metal panel there. What your seeing appears to be where the sill meets the steps, and the shadow under the sill. That's assuming we're looking at the same area.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 20, 2014 7:37:05 GMT -8
Explain the horizontal two-color separation on the piece of sheet metal inboard of the front right steps. Darker below, lighter (green) above. The green is very dark, but it's not black. I've been trying to follow this green/black thing. I think you're going to have to be VERY specific about the area on the picture you're talking about. You may think you are being so, but it's not coming across to me. Ed |
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Post by eh49 on Jul 20, 2014 7:49:13 GMT -8
I guess this PC green/black thing will never get settled. Keep in mind, The NS PC heritage unit is Brunswick Green. Why? Because that is what the EMD paint diagram called for.
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chuckc
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by chuckc on Jul 20, 2014 8:41:24 GMT -8
Explain the horizontal two-color separation on the piece of sheet metal inboard of the front right steps. Darker below, lighter (green) above. The green is very dark, but it's not black. Again... I am looking at the same exact photo (J. Michael Gruber collection photo) on the back cover of my "Alco's Century Series Volume Two" book. First of all, there is no sheet metal where you think there is sheet metal below the walkway and to the left of the stairs. Secondly, there is no purple and green tinted horizontal striping in the real photo. Your scan has purple and green tinted horizontal stripping that appears in the moderately dark areas of the scan. Those are a function of a malfunctioning scanner. Thirdly, look at the trucks in your image. They have the same purple and green striping. We know the trucks should be black. You can't use your image to determine the color of the loco. I believe the loco is painted "black" and the model should be painted black. If it makes you feel any better the PC shops did toss a gallon or two of green paint into the black paint when painting all their locos to match the official color name. But none of them including this batch of PC C636's have any visible shade of green in them. Edit: "horizontal striping" should be vertical "striping" in my above comment. |
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Post by onequiknova on Jul 20, 2014 8:44:23 GMT -8
I've been trying to follow this green/black thing. I think you're going to have to be VERY specific about the area on the picture you're talking about. You may think you are being so, but it's not coming across to me. Ed Ok, I guess it is difficult to find with just a text description. See the horizontal color separation right in the middle of the circle. Click to enlarge. It carries across the endplate/anticlimber but is impossible to see there, the Brunswick green is so dark- nearly black. View AttachmentLike I said, I'm not a PC guy and I thought all new PC units were black. Until I saw this photo, a couple others, and the ordered-by PRSL GP38 2011 in green with the PRR numbers. If someone comes up with a better explanation of why there are two colors on the C-636, I'll reconsider (in spite of the conclusions drawn on TO). That is what I was looking at. Look at the other pics in this thread though. I don't see any sheet metal there, just a thin sill that ends at the steps. It appears to me what we're seeing is the thin sill, and the dark shadow below the sill. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 20, 2014 9:02:48 GMT -8
Purple fringing is a characteristic of chromatic aberration, inherent in all but really good glass. Camera or scanner, but I can say with pretty good certainty that no PC locos had any purple paint anywhere. That was when my eyes were good and I was taking literally thousands of Kodachromes. If I saw something unusual, I snapped it. I do recall prr and ex-pennsy units with a greenish tinge, but never a Penn Central delivered unit. Everything was black and dirty as all get out. Had I spotted a noticeably green alco, I would have burned at least one 36 exposure roll of film. Not saying it never was, but from 72-on, I never saw one. Ymmv,jmo, etc ETA: dxomark is pretty good with putting tested numbers on lenses. Cheap glass and wonderzooms can have all sorts of artifacts. There are some very good, relatively inexpensive lenses out there, but does take some sifting. For example: www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Nikon/Nikon-AF-S-NIKKOR-85mm-F18G40-50 years ago, we did not have this level of performance. So as pictures get older, the artifacts tend to increase. The exception to this are the wonderful old large format glass plate images, which can be astonishing (although b&w) What one wouldn't give to go back 60 years or more with a nikon d810 and a couple of TB of storage... |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 20, 2014 9:33:46 GMT -8
Ok, I guess it is difficult to find with just a text description. See the horizontal color separation right in the middle of the circle. Click to enlarge. It carries across the endplate/anticlimber but is impossible to see there, the Brunswick green is so dark- nearly black. OK, got it. The upper part of the referenced area is part of the frame. The lower part is a void, and one is looking through it at a deeply shadowed area. Here's a shot of an ever so slightly weathered SP&S unit that shows the area clearly:  Ed |
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Post by bigblow69 on Jul 20, 2014 12:42:24 GMT -8
Body looks PRR green to me, the under frame looks black. Side of the cab in relation to the truck, two different colors.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 20, 2014 15:36:33 GMT -8
Body looks PRR green to me, the under frame looks black. Side of the cab in relation to the truck, two different colors. One thing to note: Typically, the black paint (black dulux) on the trucks and fuel tanks was a different type of paint than what was used for the body of the loco (duco), even the black. So, it's possible that the two blacks would reflect light differently. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 20, 2014 16:09:58 GMT -8
AB SO LEWTLEEE!
ED
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Post by bigblow69 on Jul 20, 2014 16:43:27 GMT -8
Enough is enough. Withers Alco Century Series p167 PRR 6339 C636. You can clearly see the separation of PRR Green from black in a B&W photo. The C628 on the cover you can clearly see the body is Painted green and everything from the sill down is black. And of the back cover PRR 6337 C636 is the same. I suspect even with mentioned evidence people are still going to argue this fact. If you have the book look for yourselves.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jul 20, 2014 16:57:35 GMT -8
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 20, 2014 17:58:47 GMT -8
Holy smokes, $135 for a slide! (I can see the difference in that picture, but good gracious, that price)
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chuckc
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by chuckc on Jul 20, 2014 19:08:53 GMT -8
Enough is enough. Withers Alco Century Series p167 PRR 6339 C636. You can clearly see the separation of PRR Green from black in a B&W photo. The C628 on the cover you can clearly see the body is Painted green and everything from the sill down is black. And of the back cover PRR 6337 C636 is the same. I suspect even with mentioned evidence people are still going to argue this fact. If you have the book look for yourselves. Clearly seeing "Green" in a B&W photo? And then not seeing the clear color difference between the front cover picture(PRR Green) and back cover picture(PC black) in the two color photos? LOL. Whatever you say. Yes, folks who have the book should look for themselves at the two color pictures. Open the book so that the front and back cover are side by side. It's not even close. |
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Post by markfj on Jul 21, 2014 7:32:20 GMT -8
Body looks PRR green to me, the under frame looks black. Side of the cab in relation to the truck, two different colors. One thing to note: Typically, the black paint (black dulux) on the trucks and fuel tanks was a different type of paint than what was used for the body of the loco (duco), even the black. So, it's possible that the two blacks would reflect light differently. Now, that makes sense! It seems very likely that under frame components were painted with a different paint (not necessarily color) for durability reasons. So, the definite answer is that “some” units were DGLE while others where pure black. The Bowser locomotive looks great regardless. Mark |
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Post by 12bridge on Jul 21, 2014 14:01:57 GMT -8
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 21, 2014 14:10:03 GMT -8
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chuckc
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by chuckc on Jul 21, 2014 17:37:57 GMT -8
Now, that makes sense! It seems very likely that under frame components were painted with a different paint (not necessarily color) for durability reasons. So, the definite answer is that “some” units were DGLE while others where pure black. The Bowser locomotive looks great regardless. Mark From the TO discussions, the conclusion seems to be that the ONLY new PC locos to be delivered in Brunswick green were these two orders: Fifteen C-636s # 6330 - 6344 delivered March-April 1968. (PC began 2/1/68) Ordered by PRR. Five GP38s # 2010 - 2014 delivered July-Aug 1970. Ordered by PRSL. They even have the yellow-ish PRR-type numerals. Still looking for a true "painted by PC" unit in green- it's looking doubtful that there were any. So it's looking like all other new PC locos and all repainted locos were black. Of course there are many EX-PRR units that were relettered / renumbered or touched-up by PC. These would remain green until being repainted. No information from the TO discussion has been introduced here. All you've shown has been a scanned picture with purple and green scanner artifacts. Meanwhile here's another book that says that the PC 636 order was delivered in black. "Aloco Locomotives" Author: Brian Solomon (Excerpt from page 170) "The largest order for C-636's was made by Pennsylvania Railroad which vanished into the Penn Central while the locomotives were in production; the locomotives were delivered to the PC dressed in a somber black and adorned with the Penn Central 'mating worms' logo". books.google.com/books?id=8A4I4eOtkGwC&pg=PA170&lpg=PA170&dq=alco+C636+delivered+black&source=bl&ots=oYIePjr3il&sig=vaECg2-Ru3PtKKs0dLuY77STsWU&hl=en&sa=X&ei=8rfNU8H4Ae3msASNxIGIDw&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=alco%20C636%20delivered%20black&f=false |
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Post by atsfan on Jul 21, 2014 18:15:09 GMT -8
Holy smokes, $135 for a slide! (I can see the difference in that picture, but good gracious, that price) I am missing what the slide product is? |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 21, 2014 18:33:58 GMT -8
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Post by atsfan on Jul 21, 2014 19:00:17 GMT -8
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chuckc
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by chuckc on Jul 22, 2014 9:03:17 GMT -8
Photostat of the document via the link. www.rypn.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=32888&start=90Penn CentralList of Approved Paints and Coatings Published and Distributed by Research Department - Collinwood, Ohio March, 1972 I. A. 2. 47-291200 - Enamel, Locomotive Finish, Brunswick Green, Alkyd Base (paint manufacturer's code numbers follow) --------------------- The photo of PC C-636 # 6337 that we've been discussing, below, is part of Rob Sarberenyi's collection. Why would he scan it off of a Withers publication when he owns the slide? The two orders of new PC locos being delivered in green was also discussed on the "Diesels" list with Mr. Sarberenyi participating. Rob sent me the link to the photo during the discussion. The conclusion there was also that these two orders of locos were delivered in green. Rob agreed, or at least didn't disagree with that, I can't remember the details. This was in April 2014, there is no "D" list archive I know of. But most people know the "D" list is all about accurate diesel modeling. That two small orders of PC locos ordered by Brunswick green-using railroads came right after the mergers (PRSL came in later) should not be surprising. 15 C-636s # 6330 - 6344 delivered March-April 968. Ordered by PRR but delivered to PC. PC 6337: www.pbase.com/espeef5/image/38993215Five GP38s # 2010 - 2014 delivered July-Aug 1970. Ordered by PRSL but delivered to PC. They even have the yellow-ish PRR-type numerals. PC 201: www.hebners.net/pc/pcGP38/PC2011.jpg (how 'bout that green?) The photo of PC C-636 # 6337 that you posted is the exact same photo as the one in the Withers book, down to the same exact cloud formation. Apparently Sarberenyi obtained that photo from the original collection. The REAL photo doesn't have the green and purple tinted stripes. The photo that you are posting is a scanned version of this photo. A photo has to be scanned in order for it to appear electronically as an image on the internet. About the Brunswick Green mention in the PC paint book, as I've mentioned previously and as numerous sources have stated ALL PC loco paint was called "Brunswick Green" even though all of the locos looked to the eye to be "shoe polish black". They would throw in about a drop of green paint into a gallon of black paint. And that information comes from somebody who worked in the PC paint shop. See the following link. thecrhs.org/CRHSForums?&c=showthread&ThreadID=3566Hey I would love for the PC C636's to have been painted in real Brunswick Green. It would certainly add variety to the drab PC loco roster. But that wasn't the case. |
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Post by bigblow69 on Jul 22, 2014 9:11:52 GMT -8
 linkAs in the link to Railpictures shows the Penn Central unit is NOT black like the NYC unit. Kudos to Athearn to a job well done getting the color right. If the Penn Central had the units painted black from delivery why would NS paint a heritage unit PRR Green? Oh yes it is green, talked to someone that was there at the unveiling. Once its dirty probably could never tell. |
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Post by carrman on Jul 22, 2014 16:12:14 GMT -8
What I'm wondering is on the SP&S sample, where is the nose herald?
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chuckc
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by chuckc on Jul 22, 2014 17:26:51 GMT -8
The photo of PC C-636 # 6337 that you posted is the exact same photo as the one in the Withers book, down to the same exact cloud formation. Apparently Sarberenyi obtained that photo from the original collection. The REAL photo doesn't have the green and purple tinted stripes. The photo that you are posting is a scanned version of this photo. A photo has to be scanned in order for it to appear electronically as an image on the internet. About the Brunswick Green mention in the PC paint book, as I've mentioned previously and as numerous sources have stated ALL PC loco paint was called "Brunswick Green" even though all of the locos looked to the eye to be "shoe polish black". They would throw in about a drop of green paint into a gallon of black paint. And that information comes from somebody who worked in the PC paint shop. See the following link. thecrhs.org/CRHSForums?&c=showthread&ThreadID=3566Hey I would love for the PC C636's to have been painted in real Brunswick Green. It would certainly add variety to the drab PC loco roster. But that wasn't the case. Of course it's the same photo, that's my point. Rob Sarberenyi owns the photo and in defense of the unit being green he referred me to the version on the web. And now you're saying all PC units were Brunswick green, but before you said they were black. lol. How about just the two small orders of C-636s and GP38-2s were green and the rest were black, the simple conclusion reached on TO and the "D" list. Bottom line: All new and repainted PC units were black except the two orders (above, 20 locomotives total) that were made by PRR & PRSL and delivered to PC in Brunswick green. To-date, no one has shown photographic evidence to the contrary. No. I said way back on this thread that PC identified the color for all PC shop painted locos as Brunswick Green, but the locos were painted black. Not too hard to understand. Not sure why that confuses you. LOL. |
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chuckc
Junior Member
Posts: 57
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Post by chuckc on Jul 22, 2014 19:01:30 GMT -8
No. I said way back on this thread that PC identified the color for all PC shop painted locos as Brunswick Green, but the locos were painted black. Not too hard to understand. Not sure why that confuses you. LOL. Just to be clear, you just wrote: "...as I've mentioned previously and as numerous sources have stated ALL PC loco paint was called 'Brunswick Green' even though all of the locos looked to the eye to be ' shoe polish black'. They would throw in about a drop of green paint into a gallon of black paint..." So it was Brunswick green, except it was black, which is Brunswick green, which is not black? Reminds me of this scene from Chinatown To be clear if that's your understanding of what I said then you have a problem. |
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Post by bigblow69 on Jul 22, 2014 19:17:31 GMT -8
Its black. Its black, I want my Penn Central Back
Its Green. Its Green. Just the perfect sheen.
What can I do. I just love Conrail Blue!
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