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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 23, 2014 5:27:27 GMT -8
I understand measurements but how are we getting un sprung hight?
Our scale track does sink give or drop like real world track
Now from the steps up to the cab I can see accurate measurements but not from the ground up too many variables..
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Post by thebessemerkid on Oct 23, 2014 5:50:34 GMT -8
I think the way to do it is reference all vertical measurements from the railhead. Both model and prototype.
If someone can obtain access to the real units, that gives us one set of data points.
Models of course anyone with decent equipment can measure. The ideal setup would probably be placing track and locomotive on a surface plate, and using a height gage zeroed to the railhead.
Sorta like this:
(Apologies for the goofy music, Starrett please...)
As for height variation with fuel, maybe some railroaders with access to the fuel rack can take some pre and post-fueling measurements to get a handle on typical ranges for 200 ton locos. I'd take three measurements: 2 at jacking pads to determine suspension height changes and one at the center of the loco to observe frame deflection. At GE, I recall frames being pre-bowed upward, which straightened out after the prime mover was added.
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Post by carrman on Oct 23, 2014 5:58:36 GMT -8
Maybe we'd have better luck having someone measure one of the dead ones?
Dave
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 23, 2014 6:46:32 GMT -8
I think the way to do it is reference all vertical measurements from the railhead. If'n I had a (real) 636 available, I'd show up with a straight 2x4 about 8 to 10 feet long, lay it down on the track at the end of the loco, extend a tape measure up from the top of the 2x4, sight down the deck, and make note of the number on the tape measure where that line crosses it. And then subtract the 2x4 dimension. It would also be good to tap on the fuel tank, to get a sense of how full it is. And sighting down the entire walkway wouldn't hurt, to get a sense of how much bowing there is--might even get a dimension. Ed |
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Post by bnsf971 on Oct 23, 2014 7:41:58 GMT -8
I think the way to do it is reference all vertical measurements from the railhead. If'n I had a (real) 636 available, I'd show up with a straight 2x4 about 8 to 10 feet long, lay it down on the track at the end of the loco, extend a tape measure up from the top of the 2x4, sight down the deck, and make note of the number on the tape measure where that line crosses it. And then subtract the 2x4 dimension. It would also be good to tap on the fuel tank, to get a sense of how full it is. And sighting down the entire walkway wouldn't hurt, to get a sense of how much bowing there is--might even get a dimension. Ed A real 2x4 measures 1.5"x3.5" |
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Post by carrman on Oct 23, 2014 8:57:59 GMT -8
We need Lou Brefo to get measurements for us. He has access to the dead ones I beleive.
Dave
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Post by elsdp45 on Oct 23, 2014 9:00:35 GMT -8
If the 2x4 is sitting on top of the railhead, you would have to add the 2x4 board's measurement onto the tape measure figure to get the height from railhead. Otherwise you are short the thickness of the board.
Chris
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 23, 2014 10:12:08 GMT -8
Well, my customer is sending all of his to Bowser for them to deal with both the gear issues and the missing sound; he says when he spoke to them it clearly wasn't an isolated incident. So it appears they're going to take care of people, at any rate. Glad I'm not them to have to deal with this.
GVT is a pain to deal with all the way around, although their explanations for their rules tend to be nonsense - "homeland security" ... 10, 15 years ago I asked about a piece of equipment that had sat rotting on a bit of LV track they run for at least 20 years at that point, to use for a display as that was about all it would be good for, and was told they might need it to re-use for the D-L. And the ex-MMID F-unit that sat getting slowly destroyed up to Tobyhanna that they refused to move because it had been thrown together incorrectly (trucks on wrong ends) that suddenly did get moved when it was about given away to someone that was buddies with them...
Yeah, I'd try and go see if WNY&P would let me measure an engine, too.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 10:46:24 GMT -8
As for height variation with fuel, maybe some railroaders with access to the fuel rack can take some pre and post-fueling measurements to get a handle on typical ranges for 200 ton locos. I'd take three measurements: 2 at jacking pads to determine suspension height changes and one at the center of the loco to observe frame deflection. At GE, I recall frames being pre-bowed upward, which straightened out after the prime mover was added. As a railroader who's been around many different types of units and looked at witght, springs & height from a modeler's perspective, I don't think fuel/sand/oil/water makes much difference in the loco height. Maybe an inch. This is unlike freight cars where a 100 load will noticeably compress truck springs. Modelers are overestimating the effect of fuel weight on loco height. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Oct 23, 2014 13:25:24 GMT -8
If the 2x4 is sitting on top of the railhead, you would have to add the 2x4 board's measurement onto the tape measure figure to get the height from railhead. Otherwise you are short the thickness of the board. Chris Well, uh, yeah. I s'pose. Ed (Who always had difficulty with word problems.) |
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Post by Judge Doom on Oct 23, 2014 16:42:27 GMT -8
Well, my customer is sending all of his to Bowser for them to deal with both the gear issues and the missing sound; he says when he spoke to them it clearly wasn't an isolated incident. So it appears they're going to take care of people, at any rate. Glad I'm not them to have to deal with this. GVT is a pain to deal with all the way around, although their explanations for their rules tend to be nonsense - "homeland security" ... 10, 15 years ago I asked about a piece of equipment that had sat rotting on a bit of LV track they run for at least 20 years at that point, to use for a display as that was about all it would be good for, and was told they might need it to re-use for the D-L. And the ex-MMID F-unit that sat getting slowly destroyed up to Tobyhanna that they refused to move because it had been thrown together incorrectly (trucks on wrong ends) that suddenly did get moved when it was about given away to someone that was buddies with them... Yeah, I'd try and go see if WNY&P would let me measure an engine, too. Wouldn't be hard to measure one, the two units sitting dead by Maple St. are probably them: Cohocton NY area mapwww.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=3841760 |
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Post by icrr3067 on Oct 23, 2014 19:10:32 GMT -8
Just test ran my two IC ones, and they ran perfect!
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Post by leeenglish on Oct 25, 2014 12:48:57 GMT -8
Just thought that I would add by comments. I do not normally leave comments.
Bowser will make a new 5000 gal fuel tank. I have already drawn the tank and i am having a 3d printed sample
made, New free rolling trucks are already in the shop. Just contact me. Also i have finally found the height info i used
to design the deck height. I blew it. the deck is 1/32" too high. The DL C636 and the DL M636 both are 72" high.
72" was from actual measurements with a 6 foot ruler. Sorry i have caused all the trouble. Lee English
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Post by thebessemerkid on Oct 25, 2014 12:56:56 GMT -8
Just thought that I would add by comments. I do not normally leave comments. Bowser will make a new 5000 gal fuel tank. I have already drawn the tank and i am having a 3d printed sample made, New free rolling trucks are already in the shop. Just contact me. Also i have finally found the height info i used to design the deck height. I blew it. the deck is 1/32" too high. The DL C636 and the DL M636 both are 72" high. 72" was from actual measurements with a 6 foot ruler. Sorry i have caused all the trouble. Lee English Thank you for the update. In the grand scheme of things, a model with a few tweaks and a manufacturer willing to work with hobbyists is a pretty good thing.  |
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Post by wmcbride on Oct 25, 2014 13:05:09 GMT -8
Just thought that I would add by comments. I do not normally leave comments. Bowser will make a new 5000 gal fuel tank. I have already drawn the tank and i am having a 3d printed sample made, New free rolling trucks are already in the shop. Just contact me. Also i have finally found the height info i used to design the deck height. I blew it. the deck is 1/32" too high. The DL C636 and the DL M636 both are 72" high. 72" was from actual measurements with a 6 foot ruler. Sorry i have caused all the trouble. Lee English Lee, Great news on the bigger tank. It so "makes" the C636 the beast it is. 1/32" off is 2.72 scale inches. Hardly seems a felony to me... Bill McBride |
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Post by eh49 on Oct 25, 2014 13:59:34 GMT -8
1/32"? That's what you guys are gripping about? I'd say its a non- issue. I'm happy with my 6, and all 6 seem to run fine. Got my 2 PC units bracketing a PC C630, and all seems fine between them.
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Post by carrman on Oct 25, 2014 16:09:37 GMT -8
1/32"? That's what you guys are gripping about? I'd say its a non- issue. I'm happy with my 6, and all 6 seem to run fine. Got my 2 PC units bracketing a PC C630, and all seems fine between them. To you it is, but some of us care and will lower our models as needed. Dave |
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 25, 2014 16:37:04 GMT -8
You can always saw it in half and throw it away lol!
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Post by steeplecab on Oct 25, 2014 17:00:16 GMT -8
Lee -
In my eyes, any manufacturer who will stand up and tell us what happened is worthy of respect. I worked for a gentleman once who said he expected everyone to make mistakes occasionally. Anyone who didn't wasn't really trying hard enough. The secret he said, was in how you dealt with your errors. Did you own them and make the corrections necessary, or did you shift the blame. The 32nd of an inch by itself isn't the whole story, but it sure helps explain what the problem is. As Bill McBride notes above, that massive 5000 gallon tank really fills the space under the frame in ways the current 4000 gallon tank just doesn't. I'm anxiously awaiting the new tanks before I lower the frame. The two things together I suspect will make all the difference in the looks of these units.
Dano
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Post by fr8kar on Oct 25, 2014 17:02:38 GMT -8
Thanks for posting, Lee. Getting it straight from the horse's mouth is the best way.
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 25, 2014 17:17:42 GMT -8
Ok, so we now know the walkway is 1/32" too high .... but because of what ? If it's strictly a matter of knocking the truck bolster down 1/32", then that would also close the gap between the top of the side frame and the side sill, in addition to getting the steps AND the pilot closer to the ground. The larger fuel tank will also fill that big gap underneath as well.
Soooo .... lower the bolster by 1/32" and add the new tank and everything should be good ?
Mark.
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Post by atsfan on Oct 25, 2014 17:38:27 GMT -8
Is it easy to lower the engine the 1/32nd inch?
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 25, 2014 20:28:56 GMT -8
Looking at the picture of the truck bolster back on page eight, looks like there's enough meat there to reduce it by 1/32 of an inch. (?)
Mark.
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Post by WP 257 on Oct 25, 2014 20:48:35 GMT -8
In my case, sure I'll replace the fuel tank when the new one is available, but otherwise I'll be leaving my engines just the way they are.
It's still one heck of a neat model and a very impressive one on the layout.
If I look hard enough at any model out there, I know I'm going to find stuff wrong. Sure, try for perfection, but that's also not obtainable...
Right now we have people on another thread complaining about the paint colors used by Hornby on the U25C, yet at the same time perhaps failing to consider the issues with color film shot during that era. One can plainly see some of the color images posted on these forums of prototype U25C's are just "off" in color (the surrounding sky and vegetation doesn't look quite right either) and I simply would not use those images for color comparison to say a model was "wrong". I have dvd's originally shot during the '70's and I have other dvd's shot in the same location of the same railroads in the later 1980's--and the railroad paint schemes in question did not materially change--but the film that survives is clearly different from the early '70's to the mid-80's. Even the background rock features appear different in color...but the rock formations did not change--the film and/or processing did.
I'm not a GE fan per se, but I'd love to be able to buy one of those NP U-boats, as I think they look fantastic (despite my earlier statements to the contrary regarding the handrails)...but my money is already committed to more Alcos at the present time.
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Post by carrman on Oct 26, 2014 18:49:47 GMT -8
So, I spent 7 hours today with two out of three of the SP&S C636's my friend bought on the clubs layout running for the public. I'm waiting for trucks, but in the meantime, I took Lee's suggestion about running them on a rubber sanding drum chucked in my Dremel at half speed until they sounded "smooth". Tried to do that to the 3rd one, but it had a busted gear anyway, so I gave up on that one. Anyway, the 2 units ran better with the BEMF on than they did before. Tried it without, but they weren't quite as responsive. Ran about a 22 car train over the 2.75 percent ruling grade we have, and they did well. Had to run them at a considerable higher throttle setting than say my Walthers U28's or Genny GP38-2's, but I kept up with other train no problem. I imagine performance will improve a bit more when I get the replacement trucks this week. Mind you, I don't like 21 pin connectors, an overly complicated decoder, or the fact a reset will erase the sound, but these things sounded good. Soundtraxx will need to step up their game. Btw, I felt the prime mover sound ran too fast at high throttle settings, a change to CV60 value from 160 to 100 pretty much got them sounding like the Alcos working Keating Summit on Youtube. I will buy some of my own with sound come the third run.
Dave
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Post by greasemonkey on Oct 26, 2014 19:25:22 GMT -8
I know others will see things differently, but I don't need an apology from Lee. Without him producing these, we wouldn't have them. They may have a few issues, but it sure sounds like he is taking care of us with solutions to them. I personally want to thank Lee for coming here to fill us in, and for working with us to fix the issues we are seeing.
Brian
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Post by Mark R. on Oct 26, 2014 19:41:16 GMT -8
[snip].... or the fact a reset will erase the sound,.... Dave A factory reset will not erase the sound. Mark. |
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Post by lvrr325 on Oct 26, 2014 22:16:05 GMT -8
Did a show today and for the heck of it put out my last C636 on hand; I sold a C628 in the spring and had a hole to fill.
Nobody even looked at the (blank) thing. Not that I'm that surprised, but it was the only one in the building. For whatever reason people weren't buying in general, though, it's been a long time since I set up anywhere and sold so little. So it stayed in it's slot in the table top tray all day long.
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Post by carrman on Oct 27, 2014 5:39:46 GMT -8
[snip].... or the fact a reset will erase the sound,.... Dave A factory reset will not erase the sound. Mark. Too many people, and Decoder Pro both tell me there is a strong chance I will lose the sound. Not going to risk it. Dave |
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Post by grabbem88 on Oct 27, 2014 7:54:40 GMT -8
Then I guess tsunami qsi TCS < which is very similar to esu will Lose sound if reset??
Only an incompetent or inexperienced programmer would fubar the loading process..
I have just shy of 50 esu sound locos and have reset all them one time or another and never experienced a loss of any kind
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