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Post by carrman on Nov 4, 2014 6:53:01 GMT -8
Is layout wet rail or dry rail?? Dry. |
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Post by grabbem88 on Nov 4, 2014 7:00:32 GMT -8
Wow!
No need to leave or threaten to leave for that matter..
I just wanted to see what's going on is all explaining by text just isn't cutting it. This is new to you so explanations are hit and miss..
I just think you are discouraged a bit with this model and I do agree its not fair you gotta make alot of changes to make something work somewhat comparable to a lesser but more consistent engine that you are used to..
Threats are unfair and telling other people to get over it
Is a heck of alot worse than me requesting a video to see what's going on like this noise
Sorry to piss you off but facts are facts and pics/videos prove/disprove all above
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Post by grabbem88 on Nov 4, 2014 7:18:56 GMT -8
Does the noise sound like this in the video?
And that rs3 does not weigh no more than a kato s4
It is really lite for a good puller.
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Post by scl1234 on Nov 4, 2014 8:06:24 GMT -8
... Yes, 3 can run a 30 car train, but they are hard pressed to start it on a grade without being at least at speed step 60, and then when they do it's with a burst of wheel slip. With a 40 car train they were on their hands and knees trying to get it up hill. The burst of wheel slip from a stop is likely due to the friction (possibly worms, but mostly trucks and wheels) the motor is having to overcome to begin turning. This "normal" amount of friction is coupled with a weak (low pound*in torque rating) motor. I'd be curious to see results of these tests using DC with the locomotive off the rails. What is the voltage when the wheels begin turning? Then once they're turning, how low can the voltage be and still have wheels turning? That will tell you more about the "hysteresis function" of the motor and drive. Suspect that nothing is wrong with the drive that minor tuning (flash removal from gears) wouldn't take care of. Good luck with your analysis |
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Post by carrman on Nov 4, 2014 9:48:43 GMT -8
The units all have C630 trucks with light lube and clean gears. They are able to run a whole lot faster than with the original trucks. Thw whisling/whining I can live with, but the loss of control of trailing units concerns me. I need to run the test train again withg back EMF enabled and see what that does for me.
Dave
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Post by packer on Nov 5, 2014 15:07:18 GMT -8
I added 1.25 ounces of thin stick-on weights to mine in the recess in front of the decoder. There isn't a whole lot of room in the sound/DCC models for extra weight, unless one made new ones. I'm wondering what metal was used, cause the weights do seem lite for even steel.
As a note, the soldering job that was done on the pick-up tabs for the trucks weren't really good. However the other solder joints are pretty good. When I took mine apart, I re-soldered the wires and hit them with a black sharpie.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Nov 5, 2014 17:53:36 GMT -8
carrman,
Since you're using Digitrax, try the same test with all the decoders set to the same address (IOW, "Basic Consisting"). If you still have non-responsive trailing units (but a working leading unit), then it's almost certainly the decoder's fault.
However, if they run just fine when set to the same address, then it's probably a Digitrax problem. When running at my club (also Digitrax), I've noticed that the trailing units do not always act in 100% compliance with the leader. For a quick example, MU 4 engines together with one as the lead engine. Turn all the headlights on. Watch the lights closely, then reverse direction. I have noticed that the lead engine flips first, then all the trailing units flip a fraction of a second later.
The fact that your MU leader responds while your trailing MU engines keep spinning says to me that the signal made it to the leader but got lost to the trailing MU's. And that's probably not the decoder's issue, but a layout one.
Also, try MU'ing them all to a fictional number and see if that makes a difference. Or try switching them around and putting another of the test units in the lead. You should be able to tell if it's a decoder problem or a layout problem.
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Post by carrman on Nov 5, 2014 19:21:12 GMT -8
Some good ideas there Paul. Will try that this weekend and report back what I find. I am very curious, as to why it only happens on one section of the layout.
Dave
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Post by ChessieFan1978 on Nov 5, 2014 19:31:20 GMT -8
Sanders must be clogged!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Nov 6, 2014 10:44:59 GMT -8
.......the owner of Bowser who's been very happy to assist me, providing me trucks and divulging developments on upcoming improvements and models from Bowser. One of the things he publicly stated is that they are working on a new motor. I wonder why? Maybe it's for the same reason Atlas and IM want a new motor. Dave Sorry Dave I do not have any answers for you and I do not mean to go off subject here, but in a response of yours you stated the above. The thing that really puzzles me is why the heck is it so difficult to find a good motor when there is one already there. The Kato motor is still the best motor out there. Can't the manufacturers just source the same motor or is the Kato motor a proprietary motor only available to Kato? Does Kato produce their own motor? It has good low end torque and is fairly quiet. All my non-Kato models get Kato motors. I do not run trains a lot, but I have never had any issues with them nor have I heard of fellow modelers having issues. Brian |
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Post by bnsf971 on Nov 6, 2014 13:11:38 GMT -8
We had some issues with locomotives doing strange things on tbe club layout, and it turned out to be a wiring/communication issue. We ran fresh, larger wires to the affected areas, and didn't have that particular problem there again.
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Post by WP 257 on Nov 6, 2014 14:19:34 GMT -8
.......the owner of Bowser who's been very happy to assist me, providing me trucks and divulging developments on upcoming improvements and models from Bowser. One of the things he publicly stated is that they are working on a new motor. I wonder why? Maybe it's for the same reason Atlas and IM want a new motor. Dave Sorry Dave I do not have any answers for you and I do not mean to go off subject here, but in a response of yours you stated the above. The thing that really puzzles me is why the heck is it so difficult to find a good motor when there is one already there. The Kato motor is still the best motor out there. Can't the manufacturers just source the same motor or is the Kato motor a proprietary motor only available to Kato? Does Kato produce their own motor? It has good low end torque and is fairly quiet. All my non-Kato models get Kato motors. I do not run trains a lot, but I have never had any issues with them nor have I heard of fellow modelers having issues. Brian First, again, I am speaking my own opinion and not on behalf of any manufacturer. However, the answer is most likely rather simple: Kato's motor is not cheap (or would not be for others to buy). The Chinese factory wage rate is likely below that of the Japanese (that is why brass model production left Japan for Korea almost 40 years ago, and that it why the brass production was leaving Korea for China before the brass market imploded). Unless a bunch of manufacturers would agree amongst themselves to all switch to Kato's motor, none of them on their own can afford to because they would immediately be at a price disadvantage relative to all those who continue to use the Chinese motor. Also, you can buy the Chinese made motors in lots of 10,000 and have them delivered to your door here in the U.S. for far less money ie about 1/6 the cost than you could make the same motor for here. There has been considerable complaining regarding the price point of new models in countless online forum posts (on multiple forums, not just here) over the past few years. One way the manufacturers have held the cost down is to source the Chinese motors. Plus we don't even know if the new motor coming is not already better than the Kato. It might actually be? |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Nov 6, 2014 23:00:46 GMT -8
John,
Actually, OMI attempted to go to China and retreated before the brass market imploded. Their first (and only) foray into China was with the NH & B&M 0-6-0's. They had so many problems that they went back to Korea. Would they have tried to go back to China again? Well, there's still brass (PSC, Division Point, etc.) being imported and it's not from China, so what does that say?
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Post by WP 257 on Nov 7, 2014 5:20:54 GMT -8
It says they weren't totally happy with the quality...If I recall correctly, a number of brass structures--coaling facilities, bridges, etc. were made in China for OMI, as well as at least a few freight cars. The structures looked pretty good and still command good money. The bridges were awesome, but I just can't really afford to buy one...
In any case the plastic market is highly competitive, and that's part of the issue with the motors--trying to keep the cost down so you can maintain a competitive price point.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Nov 7, 2014 7:58:54 GMT -8
Yeah, I forgot about the bridges. To rephrase: "The NH T-2b (and B&M) 0-6-0's were the first and only locos made in China for Overland." They were all supposed to be factory painted, yet many hit the market in plain brass. IIRC, OMI got the locos and a lot had to be sent back. They got stripped, re-soldered, and then shipped back without paint. When you look at these models, most have a black marker line vertically through the label, which means that they got sent back.
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Post by JohnJ on Nov 7, 2014 14:29:49 GMT -8
The C636 has some issues, but I have to laud Bowser for customer service. I e-mailed them earlier Wednesday about the binding in the trucks, and received two complete trucks in the mail today, including sideframes and wheelsets. Coupled with the promise of a newly-tooled fuel tank, I'm impressed with Bowser. Most other manufacturers probably wouldn't have even acknowledged perceived shortcomings in their models.
The good news about the new trucks is I'll be able to experiment with lowering the unit a bit since I'll have a spare gearbox. Good weekend project, I guess.
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Post by Chad on Nov 7, 2014 18:12:14 GMT -8
The C636 has some issues, but I have to laud Bowser for customer service. I e-mailed them earlier Wednesday about the binding in the trucks, and received two complete trucks in the mail today, including sideframes and wheelsets. Coupled with the promise of a newly-tooled fuel tank, I'm impressed with Bowser. Most other manufacturers probably wouldn't have even acknowledged perceived shortcomings in their models. The good news about the new trucks is I'll be able to experiment with lowering the unit a bit since I'll have a spare gearbox. Good weekend project, I guess. I agree, did then same thing. E-mailed Bowser ask about the truck exchange got a reply asking how many I needed and within four days my new complete trucks arrived. Just filed down the mounting pad and installed. Runs like a charm, no more noise and very smooth. Once the new fuel tank is released this BN C636 will be superb. It's very good now. Now to make it a nice dirty BN C636. |
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Post by carrman on Nov 14, 2014 12:50:52 GMT -8
News about C636 trucks, fuel tank and couplers
New molds for the fuel tank should finish in a week.
I will run the mold here, assemble and paint.
The all new gearbox with new gears and lowered bolster height are
already in the air with FedEx.
Couplers should be shipping to us by Kadee today or tomorrow.
New couplers are needed when I dropped the height of the deck.
The loco will be very close to the height of other Century locos.
Anyone with a demo unit please let me know so we can ship the correct color.
691-702 C636 Truck, Fuel tank, coupler package - black
691-703 C636 Truck, Fuel tank, coupler package - Gray
Only available to order direct from Bowser
The locos that are in production now will have all the new changes.
Lee English
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Post by alcoc430 on Nov 14, 2014 13:07:54 GMT -8
News about C636 trucks, fuel tank and couplers New molds for the fuel tank should finish in a week. I will run the mold here, assemble and paint. The all new gearbox with new gears and lowered bolster height are already in the air with FedEx. Couplers should be shipping to us by Kadee today or tomorrow. New couplers are needed when I dropped the height of the deck. The loco will be very close to the height of other Century locos. Anyone with a demo unit please let me know so we can ship the correct color. 691-702 C636 Truck, Fuel tank, coupler package - black 691-703 C636 Truck, Fuel tank, coupler package - Gray Only available to order direct from Bowser The locos that are in production now will have all the new changes. Lee English Nice, I glad the Conrail units were not in the first run but will have all the updated components. High Praise to Bowser for the quick response to those issues, including the truck height WOW |
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Post by JohnJ on Nov 14, 2014 13:31:34 GMT -8
One thing that isn't clear from that message is whether there is a charge for these components. I tried looking up those part numbers on their online ordering page but got no hits.
What about the hi-ad Century 630s? To my eyes the Bowser C630 hi-ad rides at exactly the same height as my C-636. Do these need to be lowered as well?
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Post by llxlocomotives on Nov 17, 2014 12:58:39 GMT -8
I read through this thread over tha last couple of days. I will say I'm amazed at the detail that you guys will notice. The larger issue for me is the motor performance. The few comments here that concern the motor have me thinking. How much does this model weigh? It sounds like the model won't spin its wheels at 12 volts, which is close to what the DCC decoder will give it at max power. If that is true, that indicates to me that the model is to heavy for the motor. I've seen many situations where the expected does not happen because the system is over some hill you didn't count on. I have one of these coming. I'm going to investigate some scenero's to understand this issue batter. By the way, is the truck gear problem a one of a kind or is the average truck condition? Larry check out my blog: www.llxlocomotives.com |
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Post by leeenglish on Nov 17, 2014 13:09:34 GMT -8
This is Lee English of Bowser. Subject Alco C636. The new trucks (using new gears) with lower bolster height are done. They are due here next week. The fuel tank mold (made in PA) is coming along well and I expect it in about a week. We will run the mold and assemble the fuel tanks as soon as I have the mold in hand. I will have to let the paint dry for 2 days and then we can get these out. If you have a C636 just send an email with your name and address, color (Demo is Grey) and how many. If we have already sent you trucks email me and get the newer trucks and fuel tank. Just to be clear there is no charge for the new truck & fuel tanks. The batch of C636 finishing in China will have these new parts included. Thanks for being patient. There was a question about the C630 Hi ad truck on the Reading. The Reading was higher. The next run of Alco C628 will also have a new gearbox. Just 2 more notes. I have almost finished the MLW M-636 and M-630 drawings. I am now looking for information on the Chop nose RS-3's, rebuilt RS-3's and Phase 2 and Phase 3 stuff. I just measured LV 211 Hammerhead.
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Post by Spikre on Nov 17, 2014 13:40:59 GMT -8
 Hello Mr English, EL only completed 1 RS-3M,they raised the long hood similar to the D&H M-K RS-3Ms,the details were different. the EL used an EMD 12 cylinder 567,while the D&H used a 12 cylinder 251 and kept the Alco fan, but had other hood detail changes. will You be making a Core RS-3 long hood that has been raised about 6" ? is the M-420 on Your Long List ? keep the Alco/MLWs coming ! Spikre 
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Post by carrman on Nov 17, 2014 13:45:57 GMT -8
This is Lee English of Bowser. Subject Alco C636. The new trucks (using new gears) with lower bolster height are done. They are due here next week. The fuel tank mold (made in PA) is coming along well and I expect it in about a week. We will run the mold and assemble the fuel tanks as soon as I have the mold in hand. I will have to let the paint dry for 2 days and then we can get these out. If you have a C636 just send an email with your name and address, color (Demo is Grey) and how many. If we have already sent you trucks email me and get the newer trucks and fuel tank. Just to be clear there is no charge for the new truck & fuel tanks. The batch of C636 finishing in China will have these new parts included. Thanks for being patient. There was a question about the C630 Hi ad truck on the Reading. The Reading was higher. The next run of Alco C628 will also have a new gearbox. Just 2 more notes. I have almost finished the MLW M-636 and M-630 drawings. I am now looking for information on the Chop nose RS-3's, rebuilt RS-3's and Phase 2 and Phase 3 stuff. I just measured LV 211 Hammerhead. Gold standard of customer service here folks. Dave |
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Post by nsc39d8 on Nov 17, 2014 14:09:44 GMT -8
OH man did I read that right!!! Phase 3 RS-3's! I hope they run Interstate and N&W with the correct dynamic brakes. Mmmm M636?? maybe DL 3000.
James Wall
Rural Hall, NC
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Post by packer on Nov 18, 2014 11:39:03 GMT -8
I'm back, and after a careful inspection of my unit, I found out why it lined up with the Conrail unit in that picture. My frame bowed down at the ends enough for that. I found this out by laying a steel ruler on the ledge on the frame for the walkways. Seems to bow towards the fireman's front more as well.
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Post by bnsf971 on Nov 18, 2014 11:47:49 GMT -8
Lee, you probably know this, but if you feel like a short field trip, the Tioga Central has (or had, the last time I was there) an ex-D&H RS3m, still painted in bicentennial paint for your measuring pleasure.
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Post by ambluco on Nov 18, 2014 12:06:16 GMT -8
Those are gone. Two went to the LA&L (specifically in Olean, NY).
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Post by lvrr325 on Nov 18, 2014 18:48:33 GMT -8
I wonder will those RS3s be all new tooling, or will they use the Stewart tooling to some degree? The way those were made allowed for relatively easy changes, IIRC someone made a hammerhead short hood to use on them which ended up being a Details West part. Want to be a hero, figure out a way to build the drive on them that will allow someone to model Penn Central/Conrail 9950: www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=623478 |
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Post by WP 257 on Nov 18, 2014 19:10:01 GMT -8
Aren't there vents in the sides of the later phase RS units that would require a new long hood to be tooled? And didn't the door arrangement also change?
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