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Post by curtmc on Mar 6, 2015 13:35:46 GMT -8
BB69, Thanks, but I'm just watching other online locations to see how long the UP flared SD70M models stay in stock...
HH is starting with 24 non-sound (at $159.98) this afternoon...
MBK sold out of 24 non-sound at $149.99 in about 11 minutes Wednesday afternoon...
EHS is down to 1 UP non-sound (#4714 non-flag) and 2 UP sound (#4714 and #4742) from their listings Monday
Lombard never listed any...
TW only has sound versions 3#s (supposedly in stock, no way to verify or check quantity like other sites)...
And ebay already has a seller trying to sell the UP sound ones at $349...
(ebay has always had a few sellers trying to sell stuff above MSRP, but when they started the free listings the number skyrocketed... Before then the seller was paying $2 or so taking a chance at finding a buyer at the overpriced starting bid. Now they can do so without any cost or risk, even with repeated listings, until they land a sucker)
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Post by bigblow69 on Mar 6, 2015 13:38:29 GMT -8
BB69, Thanks, but I'm just watching other online locations to see how long the UP flared SD70M models stay in stock... EHS is down to 1 UP non-sound (#4714 non-flag) and 2 UP sound (#4714 and #4756) Lombard never listed any... TW only has sound versions... And ebay already has a seller trying to sell the UP sound ones at $349... Thats the problem with ebay. Just wait I bet someone will list one at 1K. Nothing is worth paying full retail for. |
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Post by nebrzephyr on Mar 6, 2015 14:07:58 GMT -8
These folks usually order in fairly large quantities. Now I have no idea if that held for the UP flares. If you're looking might be giving them a call. Bob Spring Creek |
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Post by nightmare0331 on Mar 6, 2015 14:08:03 GMT -8
If anyone needs something to run with their new UP flared SD70M's, Kato has a few SD9043's in UP still available. These would also be a nice quick down and dirty NS patch job project if one was so inclined.  Enjoy! Kelley. |
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Post by atsfan on Mar 6, 2015 14:15:30 GMT -8
BB69, Thanks, but I'm just watching other online locations to see how long the UP flared SD70M models stay in stock... EHS is down to 1 UP non-sound (#4714 non-flag) and 2 UP sound (#4714 and #4742) Lombard never listed any... TW only has sound versions (supposedly in stock)... And ebay already has a seller trying to sell the UP sound ones at $349... Ebay always has had people,doing this Sadly, sometimes they get their price. |
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Post by bar on Mar 7, 2015 6:59:21 GMT -8
Hmm, plastic steamers for $600, plastic autoracks for $99, but somehow, people have a problem with eBay prices. Laughable.
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on Mar 7, 2015 8:20:50 GMT -8
I think I hear a lot of talking out of both sides their mouths on this thread.
We want stock, low prices AND loads of new product. Has anyone ever thought that the reason for the tight no numbers over reservations and retailers stocking very little to none is because of the FLOOD of new products each and every month?
For those not wanting to reserve a model in advance, do you realize the cost to the retailer of stocking these items is tens of thousands of dollars? All in the hope that you MAY someday stroll into the store and MAYBE make a purchase? With the current pace of new products arriving a store can have large amounts of capital tied up for a few someday buyers. Even the best of stores can't keep putting more and more on the shelves without eventually going broke or not being able to buy new merchandise which arrives weekly. Plus, everyone wants a bargain so the margins to the store are small.
We all like going to the LHS and picking up stuff at blow out prices. Have you ever thought that the blow out bin is the worst thing for the hobby? A store forced to try to sell an item it stocked for a "someday buyer", at less than their cost to purchase that item are loosing money. You can't loose money and expect to stay in business. That is economics 101.
One of the reasons you don't see the manufacturers keeping very little to no stock over reservations is again the money tied up in these expensive models. A model still in the warehouse two months from now is as stale as moldy bread. When you have containers of new merchandise arriving monthly and at the same time announcing new container(s) full of upcoming models every month, they must keep the money flowing and stuff that is sitting on the shelf is like a blockage in an intestine.
This is at least the way I see it.
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Post by curtmc on Mar 7, 2015 9:02:13 GMT -8
It's not the prices... it is the listings of new just released items with asking prices well above MSRP.
There seems to be some people in this hobby that are not businesses (at least not paying taxes as businesses) who seem to want to use low production items as a chance to profiteer. IMHO those listings say a lot about the seller.
I can see starting an auction at MSRP and seeing if it goes higher (if it truly is rare or has high demand it will), or perhaps starting a bit over MSRP if shipping is included, but to start an auction at $50, $100 or in some cases even $500 above MSRP tells a lot about the personality of the seller...
("Hey buddy, wanna buy a Rolex?", or "This car was previously owned by a little old lady who only drove it to church on Sunday", never mind the 180,000 miles)
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Post by curtmc on Mar 7, 2015 9:27:13 GMT -8
Everybody knows that, and it is rare to see items even in the bargain bins at lower than dealer cost (UNLESS that dealer realizes just how much they made total on all the items they sold at the original pricing)...
On a $200 item where seller cost is 40-44% off MSRP, selling 40 units at 25% off first week, then 40 more at 25-30% off in following weeks, and then maybe a few at cost later (if still in stock), is more money and more profit than selling just 24 at 25% off...
BTW, the "blow out bin" is where I made a lot of my purchases early on in the hobby... If not for it I might have ended up spending my money in the later years on a different hobby... The bargain bin has its place in expanding the hobby.
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Post by wmrdgfan on Mar 7, 2015 11:04:19 GMT -8
I think I hear a lot of talking out of both sides their mouths on this thread. You have got to be kidding!!!! Aren't you the fella who was done with the hobby and everything else a few months ago??? Aren't you the person who has changed his screen name about 4 times in the last few months?  I refuse to pre order because I keep getting defective TOYS, AND because I have been laid off 5 times in the last 4 years by 3 different employers. Makes it a little hard to plan for future purchases. The manufacturers want a guarantee that there will be a 100% sell out. I would love to have a guarantee that a year from now I will have a job, and get a cost of living raise! |
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Post by atsfan on Mar 7, 2015 13:53:08 GMT -8
I think I hear a lot of talking out of both sides their mouths on this thread. We want stock, low prices AND loads of new product. Has anyone ever thought that the reason for the tight no numbers over reservations and retailers stocking very little to none is because of the FLOOD of new products each and every month? For those not wanting to reserve a model in advance, do you realize the cost to the retailer of stocking these items is tens of thousands of dollars? All in the hope that you MAY someday stroll into the store and MAYBE make a purchase? With the current pace of new products arriving a store can have large amounts of capital tied up for a few someday buyers. Even the best of stores can't keep putting more and more on the shelves without eventually going broke or not being able to buy new merchandise which arrives weekly. Plus, everyone wants a bargain so the margins to the store are small. We all like going to the LHS and picking up stuff at blow out prices. Have you ever thought that the blow out bin is the worst thing for the hobby? A store forced to try to sell an item it stocked for a "someday buyer", at less than their cost to purchase that item are loosing money. You can't loose money and expect to stay in business. That is economics 101. One of the reasons you don't see the manufacturers keeping very little to no stock over reservations is again the money tied up in these expensive models. A model still in the warehouse two months from now is as stale as moldy bread. When you have containers of new merchandise arriving monthly and at the same time announcing new container(s) full of upcoming models every month, they must keep the money flowing and stuff that is sitting on the shelf is like a blockage in an intestine. This is at least the way I see it. Huh? Nobody has said this. Again you grossly exaggerate the discussion to the level of absurd. People have said they don't like pre orders, or they don't like having to hang out by the minute hoping to find very scare items made in extremely limited quantities. That's it. All of the rest of the stuff you quote above was not said. |
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Post by eh49 on Mar 7, 2015 15:39:47 GMT -8
Yep. And he still posts projects he is currently working on.
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Post by WP 257 on Mar 7, 2015 17:01:29 GMT -8
It seems to me that people want deals, and they want the local train store to sell stuff at something near the better internet or mail order price, and yes, there are those who have clearly stated on these forums they frankly don't care about the costs to the local train store of having extra items in inventory--that is not the individual buyer's problem--and the individual buyer wants what they want, period.
I don't have a solution; I'm on a tight budget anyway (first son is 5 years from some kind of post-high school training for which I have no money to provide). That means as much as I like some of the new products coming out, I can't pre-order much.
I was flat out shocked at the price of ExactRail's newest open hopper--it's a great car--but I don't have that kind of money for one car.
I wanted to order some Tangent UP open hoppers (at $10 less money per car) but could only afford one this week. Maybe some other time I'll get more. My solution is to buy more legacy trains off the evil auction site while selling every piece of rolling stock that isn't highly useful to my future plans. That's it.
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Post by jlwii2000 on Mar 7, 2015 21:07:01 GMT -8
Bottom line: MB Klein is too popular and therefore over shopped. No pre order option means no guaranteed locomotive sale. People wonder why I like Trainworld, well I could pre order those locos at $209 for sound from them and have a guaranteed order without paying a penny until they ship. That's why! Plus they're not over shopped so stuff stays in stock longer. Trainworld sometimes does increase prices after pre order period but who cares.
I still buy from Klein's on occasion but it is super rare. Lately it has been averaging once per year or less.
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Post by riogrande on Mar 8, 2015 4:55:37 GMT -8
James, good summary conclusion.
I imagine a major factor for folks who shop Klein's is related to their available disposable income; in other words, folks with more generous spending money can afford to shop vendors with lessor discounts. That said, some vendors with modestly higher prices can do pre-order so that is certainly an option vs. MB Klein's for must have items.
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Post by mlehman on Mar 8, 2015 10:30:45 GMT -8
James, good summary conclusion. I imagine a major factor for folks who shop Klein's is related to their available disposable income; in other words, folks with more generous spending money can afford to shop vendors with lessor discounts. That said, some vendors with modestly higher prices can do pre-order so that is certainly an option vs. MB Klein's for must have items. Due to my personal economy, preorders around here have been pretty limited recently. When I do need to preorder something, I rely on a vendor who gives me 20% off as a matter of course. He is reliable, charges nothing up front, I just need to pick it up promptly when it arrives. I still scratch my head about a lot of this back and forth about getting a model at absolute bottom dollar or it simply isn't a "good value"? For the very few dollars it (doesn't always) cost me I'm happy with my primary vendor and only wish I could throw him more business. Unless you're retired and enjoy the chase more than the thrill, getting a loco for $7 less after spending two hours surfing to find it just seems like wasted time to me. I do use MBK/MTS from time to time as a secondary supplier. I think the big attractions there are low prices and online inventory, which is nice to have when hunting down something you go a million places claiming to offer, yet you need to know the one that will ship it to you in the morning. Looking at MBK's website is very useful under these circumstances. However, I think people often read far too much into the realtime inventory numbers as a former receiving clerk/inventory control specialist. Those quantities are just numbers and reflect on hand quantities available to ship based on what's on the shelf...and little more than that. |
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Post by riogrande on Mar 8, 2015 11:16:50 GMT -8
I still scratch my head about a lot of this back and forth about getting a model at absolute bottom dollar or it simply isn't a "good value"? For the very few dollars it (doesn't always) cost me I'm happy with my primary vendor and only wish I could throw him more business. Unless you're retired and enjoy the chase more than the thrill, getting a loco for $7 less after spending two hours surfing to find it just seems like wasted time to me. I do understand prices are going up much faster than our disposable income and people aren't happy; when people aren't happy they complain. It will never end but one can hope it can settle down to a dull roar. For those on a very tight budget, as I have been many times, saving all you can is important, so I don't fault people for doing that. My expenses just went up monthly so my wife and I were looking for ways to reduce spending to partially make up for that so we cancelled our Verizon phone plan and went on a pay as you go plan with low cost smart phones and use wifi at home and work to make calls via Viber - it should save us $40-50/mo. Others are in similar situations so it's a big deal hobby costs. What can you do? Sell stuff, buy fewer things, be happy with what you have, and hopefully complain less. |
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Post by curtmc on Mar 8, 2015 11:41:02 GMT -8
It is more than just the "$7 less" cost of a loco... It is also the more reasonable shipping and the reduced costs of the other items purchased that make people flock to MBK. On the 10 items I picked up at MBK I saved $280 off MSRP and the shipping/handling cost was less than the gas I'd spend to drive the 180 mile round trip...
By the way, all 10 items I purchased have now sold out at MBK within 4 days including the container sets they had 36 each of...
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Post by wmrdgfan on Mar 8, 2015 12:27:58 GMT -8
The whole point of this thread is the time in which product is unavailable to buy, not price. As you have pointed out, you have had to make changes to your finances in your family budget. So have millions of other familys. The corperate world and manufacturers act as if it is only them that have to tighten their belts. Look at it this way... If company X says they are bringing a loco out, but only with sound, I can say, well, I'm not paying for sound when I don't want it. Now Company Y says they are bringing a loco to market, but you must preorder, because we are only producing what is pre-ordered. You say ok,I dont know how my finances are going to be when they come out,but I hope the dealers order enough that there are some avaiable. You start putting something back when you can to pay for it when its released. You get the funds together, and when they are released, they are gone in 11 min, and you didn't even get to see them listed. There has to be a way to balance things out a little. Its the arrogance of the corperate world that has people angry these days, and when you add to the fire, in a hobby where you escape the realitys of everyday life, then people vent.Yes there are other areas of the hobby that are very enjoyable, but locos are a very large part of the hobby. Otherwise manufacturers wouldn't be pumping them out at the rate they are.I am not addressing anyone, or any company in particular, just the industry as a whole.
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Post by atsfan on Mar 8, 2015 17:24:28 GMT -8
James, good summary conclusion. I imagine a major factor for folks who shop Klein's is related to their available disposable income; in other words, folks with more generous spending money can afford to shop vendors with lessor discounts. That said, some vendors with modestly higher prices can do pre-order so that is certainly an option vs. MB Klein's for must have items. Due to my personal economy, preorders around here have been pretty limited recently. When I do need to preorder something, I rely on a vendor who gives me 20% off as a matter of course. He is reliable, charges nothing up front, I just need to pick it up promptly when it arrives. I still scratch my head about a lot of this back and forth about getting a model at absolute bottom dollar or it simply isn't a "good value"? For the very few dollars it (doesn't always) cost me I'm happy with my primary vendor and only wish I could throw him more business. Unless you're retired and enjoy the chase more than the thrill, getting a loco for $7 less after spending two hours surfing to find it just seems like wasted time to me. I do use MBK/MTS from time to time as a secondary supplier. I think the big attractions there are low prices and online inventory, which is nice to have when hunting down something you go a million places claiming to offer, yet you need to know the one that will ship it to you in the morning. Looking at MBK's website is very useful under these circumstances. However, I think people often read far too much into the realtime inventory numbers as a former receiving clerk/inventory control specialist. Those quantities are just numbers and reflect on hand quantities available to ship based on what's on the shelf...and little more than that. I know people whose hobby it is to spend countless hours hunting for bargains. It costs them more in time than they save, but you know what? They enjoy it. So you should not say what others do is wasted time. Would you like it if people said what you do with narrow gauge is wasted time ? I doubt it. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Mar 8, 2015 18:52:27 GMT -8
wmrdgfan, Yes, it's this or nothing...unless you want to put your money into the game and become a manufacturer yourself. To answer your question, real SD70M flares were produced starting in 2000, and we got a model of it just 15 years later (showing how quick that new models can come out in today's market). FL9's were first rolled out of LaGrange in 1956, and we got a model of it 59 years later (showing that no one would make them for more than half a century with the "old way" of doing things). The fact that we're getting both SD70M flares and FL9's tells me that this is a good thing. I didn't like the old days of not getting these types of engines and much prefer the new method where I do. Yes, they are harder to get than engines in 1990 where every hobby shop in the USA had the exact same stock (because there was so little of it), but I'd much rather have a hard time buying something out there that I know exists vs. not being able to buy something because it was never made. Model railroad companies have stock holders? Um, no. I don't even think Athearn/Horizon is publically held, and I know Rapido, Atlas, Walthers, et al, are all family owned and they don't have stock holders. They only have to please themselves. If they did have stock holders, they'd probably all be gone as no one would invest in them. Model railroading is not exactly the most lucrative business to get into. Almost every manufacturer is a hobbyist, and while they are in the business to make money, they also do it because it's their hobby, too. Every one of these people could make more money doing something else. How many models should they make? Every manufacturer would love to make exactly the right amount...but how do they know what that is? Is it 5000 units? 7500? 10,000? It's a guess based on past runs and pre-orders. But what's the risk vs. reward? If they order too few, their run sells out really fast and they get their entire investment in short order, but some customers won't be happy that they can't get what they want when they want it. If they order too many, every potential customer will be happy because they'll be available for sale months down the road as deep discount prices, however the retailers are unhappy because they can't sell 'em at more than blow out prices, distributers are unhappy because they can't sell them, and the bottom line suffers because there's so much money tied up in unsold merchandise. Do that too many times, and they are out of business. So they are always going to fall on the side of caution by not making too many because it's better to tick off customers who can be satisfied with another run vs. going out of business and losing everything. It's very easy to complain about the lack of a model's availability when it's not your money on the table. Curt, You can stop shouting, I'm right here. You're remembering the 1970's with $15 Athearns. By the 1980's, they were ~$20, and by the end of the decade they were more like $25. The MDC modern boxcars were $3.98 in 1981, FYI. Check hoseeker.net, it has all the old price guides. So you want to go back to the old days of the 1990's.  I remember those days, too. Those were the days where locos were only available in two road numbers. There was no onboard sound. Everyone still used big light bulbs or green LED's for headlights with no ditchlights or beacons. There was no road specific details at all, and there still wasn't much being made overall (as compared to today). Grabirons (if present) were plastic and usually molded in a color that didn't exactly match the paint. And most critically, most every manufacturer over-produced everything. Life-Like was the biggest culprit, but they weren't the only ones. Many, many times LL would blow out their stock to Trainworld or whomever, and one could get $100 engines for $40. That simply was not sustainable as many customers would wait to see if it hit the bargain bin. It also ticked off the retailers who would see LL engines being sold for less than they paid for their stock sitting on their shelves. This caused retailers not to stock their stuff, which led LL to either blowing out more stock or making less. They chose to make less and less. The blow out bin is a failure of sales. It is simply unsustainable. You can't base one's entire expectation of hobby pricing by picking out of the blow out bin. Yes, it's great that we, the consumer, get a great bargain. But someone lost money on that sale, and if they do that too often, they're not going to be in business for long. Jim, Hey, stop trying to confuse the issues with facts!  |
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Post by WP 257 on Mar 8, 2015 20:50:17 GMT -8
To add to the list: Bowser is entirely family held, though there may actually be stock, it is still entirely within the English family, children, grandchildren and/or in-laws.
The people in the family are not what I would call "model railroaders" per se but manufacturers and/or business-people. For the most part, they wouldn't go home and play with any trains at all, ever (though Lewis Sr. actually did, or at least collected them in large quantities, and repaired them). Lee says that he "just loves making things". He does have "model railroaders" on his staff that do have a say in suggesting models, paint schemes, colors, etc. As the years have passed, it seems the "model railroaders" on the staff might even have more say than they once did.
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Post by WP 257 on Mar 8, 2015 21:24:58 GMT -8
How many models should they make? Every manufacturer would love to make exactly the right amount...but how do they know what that is? Is it 5000 units? 7500? 10,000? It's a guess based on past runs and pre-orders. But what's the risk vs. reward? If they order too few, their run sells out really fast and they get their entire investment in short order, but some customers won't be happy that they can't get what they want when they want it. If they order too many, every potential customer will be happy because they'll be available for sale months down the road as deep discount prices, however the retailers are unhappy because they can't sell 'em at more than blow out prices, distributers are unhappy because they can't sell them, and the bottom line suffers because there's so much money tied up in unsold merchandise. Do that too many times, and they are out of business. So they are always going to fall on the side of caution by not making too many because it's better to tick off customers who can be satisfied with another run vs. going out of business and losing everything. It's very easy to complain about the lack of a model's availability when it's not your money on the table. This is very on target. In Bowser's case, they have made models that didn't even meet the minimum pre-order requirements. Apparently, given the past PRR allegiance, they couldn't rerun C628's without actually having both PRR and Lehigh Valley represented, though I'm told neither roadname met the minimum. This may be partly explained by PRR being a relatively bland paint scheme that only had small keystone logos on it, from a time that is past the peak following of the PRR, but in any case "thousands" just 'ain't happening there. Maybe for 2-8-0's? Also some things that are readily available now will not be rerun for several years because the sales potential has been fully tapped. |
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Post by mlehman on Mar 9, 2015 3:21:36 GMT -8
It is more than just the "$7 less" cost of a loco... It is also the more reasonable shipping and the reduced costs of the other items purchased that make people flock to MBK. On the 10 items I picked up at MBK I saved $280 off MSRP and the shipping/handling cost was less than the gas I'd spend to drive the 180 mile round trip... MSRP??!  Sorry, curt, don't play that game here. Did you miss where I said find a supplier that will give you 20% OFF MSRP? And actual cost shipping (which I did neglect to mention and which at MBK sometimes is somewhat over actual cost)? The "$7" I was referring to was the difference between my simply asking for him to order me one and what you MIGHT be able to find as the best bottom dollar on a $300 loco. Oftentimes, his price is THE bottom dollar, then whatever imaginary savings that can be found by the gripe-about-preordering-and-price-then-scramble-to-match-either crowd when a shipment hits the stores. And all that "other items purchased"? Also 20% off. By the way, all 10 items I purchased have now sold out at MBK within 4 days including the container sets they had 36 each of... Then MBK got things about right from a purely business point of view. Are you saying they should sink capital into maintaining a minimum 30-day inventory? Why, when in this day and age when it's known these models are coming for months, if you're paying attention you know you have to act or they will be sold out? I'm not sure how you'd justify buying stock for all the "wait-and-see" crowd to take their time making up their minds to your accountant, your boss or your board of directors. They all want to see zero inventory and max ROI at the end of every month. That's how they bring up MBAs these days. That's how the competition does it. That's how you stay around to keep making more models. |
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Post by mlehman on Mar 9, 2015 3:45:46 GMT -8
SNIP The blow out bin is a failure of sales. It is simply unsustainable. You can't base one's entire expectation of hobby pricing by picking out of the blow out bin. Yes, it's great that we, the consumer, get a great bargain. But someone lost money on that sale, and if they do that too often, they're not going to be in business for long. SNIP Words of wisdom, for sure. If one's idea of what prices should be in the hobby is based on the bargain bin, then it's best to count on doing your modeling based on what you'll likely find in this quaint and shrinking reminder of the poor sales forecasting methods of the past. In other words, how can you expect the latest and greatest models to show up in the BBin? Nope, expect the oddballs and items where they produced way too much for the market. That is all. If you're expecting something different, explain why, because it makes no sense from a business point of view. You gotta remember these folks are in the business of selling trains, not filling warehouses full of them. Or filling BBins, either. |
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Post by curtmc on Mar 9, 2015 7:48:31 GMT -8
MSRP??! Sorry, curt, don't play that game here. Did you miss where I said find a supplier that will give you 20% OFF MSRP? And actual cost shipping (which I did neglect to mention and which at MBK sometimes is somewhat over actual cost)? Mike, for many of us all the local shops - what few are left - are full MSRP, even on preorders, and I don't like to play that game either... I did have another mailorder shop where I used to reserve new Athearn units at a decent discount but had issues with damage on his loco shipments (which tended to have items in the bottom of the box - no foam or padding beneath - and all the packing above, which didn't fare too well when dropped on a concrete porch by the rushed UPS guy). However, in the case of the flared SD70M units by the time I saw the model in person in Cleveland and decided I wanted a couple of them it was too late to do preorders and that other dealer had not reserved any extras. The "up front" reservation game only works for those who absolutely want a unit at the time of its announcement. It doesn't work at all for those concerned with QA/QC issues or those who decide later that they want the unit (perhaps after seeing model was done well). And that next run? Well, it's sad but true, that many won't be around for it, and it may have issues too... I have now waited 12+ years for an AutoMax re-run with CSX done in the correct white color (dark blue lettering) instead of light gray (black letters), and I'm still waiting... And I'd bet there are many BNSF fans waiting for the BNSF wedge scheme AutoMax cars in the correct beige color too. Mike, math check time... 20% off of a $300 unit is $240. Some mailorder places have $300 units (like the sound SD70Ms) for $230 ($10 less) and there was another taking reservations at $215 ($25 less)... Lowest pre-order price for non-sound flared SD70M units I saw was $165. MBK price was $150 - $15 less on a $200 MSRP unit. MBK also sells some other product lines (including Atlas) at about 30% off, and MBK shipments tend to be well packed to prevent damage (better than shipments I've received from other shops including TW, CH, ISG...) Whats the name of the your choice shop that gives 20% off on everything? Might have to start reserving with them (if they know how to ship). |
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Post by WP 257 on Mar 9, 2015 10:00:01 GMT -8
Even as a former employee, who receives the "employee emeritus" discount, lol, if you will, I can't always get 20% off the products in one store. Best I can do on 128-page all color books is 16.5%, because they pay 67% of (times) the MSRP to get the books in the first place.
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Post by mlehman on Mar 9, 2015 11:28:47 GMT -8
SNIP The "up front" reservation game only works for those who absolutely want a unit at the time of its announcement. It doesn't work at all for those concerned with QA/QC issues or those who decide later that they want the unit (perhaps after seeing model was done well). SNIP I guess it works for me because I generally know what I want. I know we've been through the whole QC from every angle. Bottom line: You as the consumer have the right to generally merchantable (or whatever the legalese is in your jurisdiction) product for your money as described in whatever form it was. I've never run into an issue I couldn't resolve myself -- I don't count loose parts that are undamaged and easily attachable, etc. If that means I might someday get something that someone won't give me credit for, I can figure that out when I get there. Maybe I should start buying more stuff to discover all the failings or something, but it's not a big issue for me, simply because it hasn't been. Mike, math check time... 20% off of a $300 unit is $240. Some mailorder places have $300 units (like the sound SD70Ms) for $230 ($10 less) and there was another taking reservations at $215 ($25 less)... Lowest pre-order price for non-sound flared SD70M units I saw was $165. MBK price was $150 - $15 less on a $200 MSRP unit. MBK also sells some other product lines (including Atlas) at about 30% off, and MBK shipments tend to be well packed to prevent damage (better than shipments I've received from other shops including TW, CH, ISG...) I picked $7 out of the thin air. $15 probably would be the same. $25 difference on $300 and it might get my attention, but for a one time deal, I'm basically "Who Cares?" My limited purchases tend to be set months ahead. There's no budget for impulse purchases these days. Coughing up $50 for a special OOP Mashima motor to repower half my Jonan GE SP#! kinda hurt the other day, but more because it was unexpected than that it was too much. Whats the name of the your choice shop that gives 20% off on everything? Might have to start reserving with them (if they know how to ship). Never had a packing issue with John (of J&L), but never had one with the rare instances I've used MBK for something, either. As for books and some of the other things where standard discounts don't apply, the full 20% may not be available, but my needs are pretty focused and limited, so may not have come across them. Anything through Walthers is pretty much %20 off. I've ordered stuff and had it a week later that he had to get from Walthers to send to me, but that depends on everyone's timing being just right. He's about 99% with reservations, so anything missed is most likely beyond his control, as we well know happens these days. |
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Post by WP 257 on Mar 10, 2015 6:29:37 GMT -8
Mike--
You are doing great if you can order through a dealer from Walthers and get 20% off!
Even as a former store employee with the "emeritus discount" I cannot match that discount. The best I could possibly do would be about 15% now, because I think Walthers even tightened the dealers' profit margin from what it was.
As a result, I don't order from Walthers anymore. I try to find items elsewhere instead. (On items like the grass tufts that I use a lot of for Southwestern scenery, they are always on sale at a fixed discount to everybody, and I get the same price as anybody else--it's only on high dollar stuff that I might get a little bit more off).
Some customers have complained about the price increases, so the distributors "listened" and took action to hold price increases more in line by reducing the dealers' profit margins, thereby hurting the brick and mortar guys more...unintended consequences...be careful what you wish for.
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Post by llxlocomotives on Mar 10, 2015 18:03:52 GMT -8
Why does this seem like the hysteria that accompanies the next I-phone or fad video game. The question I have is if the collective "we" would dial it back a few notches would the playing field change? The manufactures decide they want to build a new engine. Great. Bowser tantalized us with the prospects of an RS3, Rapidio has done the same at least twice in the last six months or so. All in all it is great business on their part. In reality, how many fewer units will they build if the number of preorders was half their goal. And if they reduce the production run, who loses? They will produce the plan or the cost figures get out of whack. Less profit per unit. The decision to build was made on the plan. Quicker and more is more profit.
The question is if we didn't jump at every offering, would they stop making offerings? In some cases, that is all they do. So that would mean they change business. Or would they change their approach to sales? Certainly they might stop, but more likely they will modify their approach to better match the existing demand.
For me, patience is the key. This unit will be available slightly used at a number of auction sites in a few months. People who had to have it, will be on to the next must have and a few of these will become the means to that end. And the price will match my budget or I will wait until it does. I know, if everyone followed my tact, there might be nothing to buy. Funny thing, manufacturers have come and gone over the sixty years I have been aware of this hobby market. New models and makers keep appearing. Clearly there is money to be made.
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I remember those days, too. Those were the days where locos were only available in two road numbers. There was no onboard sound. Everyone still used big light bulbs or green LED's for headlights with no ditchlights or beacons. There was no road specific details at all, and there still wasn't much being made overall (as compared to today). Grabirons (if present) were plastic and usually molded in a color that didn't exactly match the paint. And most critically, most every manufacturer over-produced everything. Life-Like was the biggest culprit, but they weren't the only ones. Many, many times LL would blow out their stock to Trainworld or whomever, and one could get $100 engines for $40. That simply was not sustainable as many customers would wait to see if it hit the bargain bin. It also ticked off the retailers who would see LL engines being sold for less than they paid for their stock sitting on their shelves. This caused retailers not to stock their stuff, which led LL to either blowing out more stock or making less. They chose to make less and less.