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Post by bdhicks on May 11, 2015 19:22:50 GMT -8
Is there anyone else doing modern prototypes in brass? Seems like everyone else is mostly steam and some steam-era electrics.
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Post by mlehman on May 11, 2015 19:32:22 GMT -8
I think the real question is why buy brass? They used to be the state of the art in detail with acceptable drives. The drives could be fixed to be better than anything in plastic. Now, you have plastic models with all the detail and very good drives and sound for half or a third of the brass price. The plastic models are coming with road specific details. With that said, where is the market for brass today? They have to be able to compete on price, because the uniqueness and detail advantage is gone. I've wondered why they don't just take a decent plastic model drive -- there are several depending on what model you're talking about -- and build a brass superstructure for it. Heck, they could make the drive optional, in case you had your own and a screwdriver. That would simplify one aspect of the product for many smaller importers. Obviously, this might not help with unique units like the NW5 -- which I agree will be a loss to the hobby of not produced. |
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Post by calzephyr on May 11, 2015 20:00:27 GMT -8
Assuming the news is true, what does this mean pricing wise for the older models? I assume anything that has anything to do with overland models will skyrocket in price, especially on ebay because they're "collectors items" now. Kind of like how an artist dies and their art sky rockets in price even though when they were alive it wasn't worth anything. It is hard to tell but the late diesels will probably command a higher price. I don't see the steam going up since most are not in demand except maybe the so called Diamond Overland models. The special items like that will probably hold their value but only demand will drive prices up. I noticed recently the SD70Ace and GEVO models seem to be going higher in price as used one show up. Looking back to all of the other importers, the only models that go up in value are the rare and hard to get models. The turbines have always been fairly high and I expect them to be expensive until Athearn comes out with their plastic model. Don't take my word, just wait. Larry |
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on May 11, 2015 20:17:52 GMT -8
This is the first email I opened up with the attachment and checking the numbers on this one, it is the Caterpillar demo SD70ACe unit I reserved. Looks like they closed out my Invoice just this morning on 05.11.15 at 8:19am 5OO SOUTH BROADWAY
DENVER, CO 80209-4002 USA
WWW.CABOOSEHOBBIES.COM
PHONE: (303) 777-6766
SALES & RETURNS ARE SUBJECT TO TERMS AND
CONDITIONS POSTED IN STORE & WEB SITE!
MAYO, ALFRED "BIG AL" CUST#: 74114 INV #: 59266
7 RUSSELL RD TERMS: CASH/CHK/BANKCARD DATE : 5/11/15 TIME : 8:19
CLERK: DUANE TERM#585
NORWICH CT 06360 SLSPR: 02 DUANE MILLER
(860) 961-1585 TAX : 005 OUT OF STATE IN USA
ORDR#: 547250
SPECIAL ORDER #547250 ***************
* INVOICE *
***************
SUGG
==NOTICE==All Overland Models
Future Brass productions have
been cancelled! dvm 05-12-15
B005AA2021
TAXABLE 0.00 0.00
NON-TAXABLE 0.00 0.00
SUBTOTAL 0.00 0.00
0.00
TAX AMOUNT 0.00
TOTAL AMOUNT 0.00
CABOOSE HOBBIES INC PAGE NO 1 |
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on May 11, 2015 20:20:29 GMT -8
Here is a Cut & Paste of The (2nd) second Invoice attachment in an email that I received BELOW, checking the numbers on it, it is the Late SD70ACe with the Ant Farm on the cab version with the updated prices of MSRP $1050: 5OO SOUTH BROADWAY
DENVER, CO 80209-4002 USA
WWW.CABOOSEHOBBIES.COM
PHONE: (303) 777-6766
SALES & RETURNS ARE SUBJECT TO TERMS AND
CONDITIONS POSTED IN STORE & WEB SITE!
MAYO, ALFRED "BIG AL" CUST#: 74114 INV #: 59263
7 RUSSELL RD TERMS: CASH/CHK/BANKCARD DATE : 5/11/15 TIME : 8:12
P.O.#: 63175 CLERK: DUANE TERM#585
NORWICH CT 06360 SLSPR: 87 ZIMMERMAN, DON
(860) 961-1585 TAX : 005 OUT OF STATE IN USA
ORDR#: 532059
PO # 63175 SPO#63175 ***************
* INVOICE *
***************
SUGG
==NOTICE==All Overland Models
Future Brass productions have
been cancelled! dvm 05-12-15
B005A1638-1
TAXABLE 0.00 0.00
NON-TAXABLE 0.00 0.00
SUBTOTAL 0.00 0.00
0.00
TAX AMOUNT 0.00
TOTAL AMOUNT 0.00
CABOOSE HOBBIES INC PAGE NO 1 |
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Post by bigb6flyer on May 12, 2015 3:00:09 GMT -8
I emailed Brian at overland a year or so ago inquiring about the NS Veterans Unit 6920 being produced as Overland had announced it. He said he had little confidence it would be delivered. That's when I started to build my own in plastic.
Brad
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Post by atsfan on May 12, 2015 3:08:36 GMT -8
Let's face it, brass is a cash and carry business, built to more,orders only, many orders requiring deposits.
Not enough orders? No production.
And demand certainly isn't growing to fill those production quotas.
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Post by riogrande on May 12, 2015 4:15:22 GMT -8
I think the real question is why buy brass? They used to be the state of the art in detail with acceptable drives. The drives could be fixed to be better than anything in plastic. The obvious reason to me is its the only way to get certain models which aren't done in plastic. I do own a few brass pieces of rolling stock - cabooses and passenger cars (never engines - Lord they are too expensive). The reason I bought what I did is because well, the cabooses looked like they would never be done in plastic and so far that has born out (D&RGW rivited and welded 3 window cabooses) and the passenger cars are Prospector combines used on the Rio Grande Zephyr. At one time I had a full kumata OL/HCB/Challenger California Zephyr but replaced them with the BLI CZ plastic cars - one of the cases where brass has been superceded by plastic. Of course there have been others. But in some cases brass will still be the only way to have certain pieces of rolling stock so yes, thats the real reason for some to buy brass, whether new runs or old runs (which are more affordable). Assuming the news is true, what does this mean pricing wise for the older models? I assume anything that has anything to do with overland models will skyrocket in price, especially on ebay because they're "collectors items" now. Kind of like how an artist dies and their art sky rockets in price even though when they were alive it wasn't worth anything. Depending on the model, it may drive prices up a bit - supply and demand and all that rot! |
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Post by dti406 on May 12, 2015 4:23:49 GMT -8
I've wondered why they don't just take a decent plastic model drive -- there are several depending on what model you're talking about -- and build a brass superstructure for it. Heck, they could make the drive optional, in case you had your own and a screwdriver. That would simplify one aspect of the product for many smaller importers. Obviously, this might not help with unique units like the NW5 -- which I agree will be a loss to the hobby of not produced. Gem did that back in the 70's but they put a "Botchmann Drive" under their GP40 and SDP40 Brass Shells, I was not impressed with the drive quality, I would have rather had the old Alco Models KMT Coffee Grinder drive as it was better. Those models sat on the shelf until they were sold below dealer cost. Rick J |
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Post by nebrzephyr on May 12, 2015 6:18:05 GMT -8
Since it appears only Caboose Hobbies has been mentioned as cancelling orders, and still nothing about "shutting down" on Overland's brass website, then I'm guessing either -
Caboose Hobbies decided to get out of the brass business,
OR
Caboose Hobbies notified customers before Overland was ready to announce shutting down themseleves. Bob
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Post by mlehman on May 12, 2015 6:25:36 GMT -8
I've wondered why they don't just take a decent plastic model drive -- there are several depending on what model you're talking about -- and build a brass superstructure for it.SNIP Gem did that back in the 70's but they put a "Botchmann Drive" under their GP40 and SDP40 Brass Shells, I was not impressed with the drive quality, I would have rather had the old Alco Models KMT Coffee Grinder drive as it was better. Those models sat on the shelf until they were sold below dealer cost. Rick J Rick, Well, there were a lot of bad ideas in the 70s.  Certainly wouldn't have even suggested such an idea back them. Today is quite a different matter. It's arguable whether recent brass drives are better than anything in plastic as a whole. I've not got any relevant experience with recent runs of diesel brass, but people see fit to complain about the running qualities compared to plastic, so I suspect that good quality chassis under plastic is probably equal to anything under brass in many cases. |
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Post by mlehman on May 12, 2015 6:28:50 GMT -8
Since it appears only Caboose Hobbies has been mentioned as cancelling orders, and still nothing about "shutting down" on Overland's brass website, then I'm guessing either - Caboose Hobbies decided to get out of the brass business, SNIP I really doubt that. They have a worldwide customer base, a specialization in narrowgauge, and a local market with lots of brass floating around. Even if no new brass item was built, Caboose would likely still find demand enough to keep that dept afloat. |
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Post by Great-Northern-Willmar Div on May 12, 2015 8:08:49 GMT -8
OL more less just upped and quit. Challenger Imports took over the models that were in the pipeline. This is why you have models in OL's gold box with Challenger Imports stamped on the label. As we know CIL announced it was quitting the business overnight in 2005. Railway Classics formerly Shoreham Shops was also in business one day and announced it was gone the next. I can't remember his name, but the guy that had Oriental Limited was one of the people that started BLI and the first brass model was going to be the GN S2. He had imported the Power House models and somehow got involved with BLI as either one of the founders or partners. They got into a big problem about four years into business and that is when the first blow out sale took place. We could and did purchase models directly from BLI and FDT for less than dealer cost for a few months. . I was purchasing the Big Boys for just pennies on the dollar compared to the normal price. The guy was tossed out of BLI from my recollection and they have since become an importer that brings in many decent models. Their brass hybrids are really a bargain in the sense that run well and look decent for a low brass price. The latest 4-12-2 is a good example of a model that runs well and looks good with sound that is not so great. Their modified cab version had never been imported by any of the versions by LMB, Key, Sunset or Tenshodo. From what I hear, they sold out quickly at BLI. If a brass model is done right and is priced right, it still will sell. I believe the market is still there but much smaller than ten years ago. Larry Anton or Tony Wenzel founded BLI along with Bob Zimet and Robert Grubba. Grubba bought out Wenzel and Zimet in 2004. While Oriental Limited was still active in the mid-1980's Tony Wenzel rolled out the Pikestuff line of buildings and details. One Pikestuff building "Sally's Antiques" was named after his sister Sally, who was married to Roy Schnoor. Roy and Sally used to travel the country on weekends to train shows with their Mount Vernon Shops brass dealership. Roy did paint work for OMI, boxes with the red stamp "Custom Painted by OMI" is Roy's work. Roy was his brother in law's(Tony Wenzel) repairman for OL brass and after OL stopped and Challenger Imports took over, Roy continued to do the repair work for CIL. Roy passed a few years ago. |
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Post by atsfan on May 12, 2015 10:15:43 GMT -8
Since it appears only Caboose Hobbies has been mentioned as cancelling orders, and still nothing about "shutting down" on Overland's brass website, then I'm guessing either - Caboose Hobbies decided to get out of the brass business, SNIP I really doubt that. They have a worldwide customer base, a specialization in narrowgauge, and a local market with lots of brass floating around. Even if no new brass item was built, Caboose would likely still find demand enough to keep that dept afloat. It would not surprise me. Last visit showed the brass cabinets very thinly populated, and that was mostly used or consignment |
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Post by calzephyr on May 12, 2015 10:21:52 GMT -8
I can't remember his name, but the guy that had Oriental Limited was one of the people that started BLI and the first brass model was going to be the GN S2. He had imported the Power House models and somehow got involved with BLI as either one of the founders or partners. They got into a big problem about four years into business and that is when the first blow out sale took place. We could and did purchase models directly from BLI and FDT for less than dealer cost for a few months. . I was purchasing the Big Boys for just pennies on the dollar compared to the normal price. The guy was tossed out of BLI from my recollection and they have since become an importer that brings in many decent models. Their brass hybrids are really a bargain in the sense that run well and look decent for a low brass price. The latest 4-12-2 is a good example of a model that runs well and looks good with sound that is not so great. Their modified cab version had never been imported by any of the versions by LMB, Key, Sunset or Tenshodo. From what I hear, they sold out quickly at BLI. If a brass model is done right and is priced right, it still will sell. I believe the market is still there but much smaller than ten years ago. Larry Anton or Tony Wenzel founded BLI along with Bob Zimet and Robert Grubba. Grubba bought out Wenzel and Zimet in 2004. While Oriental Limited was still active in the mid-1980's Tony Wenzel rolled out the Pikestuff line of buildings and details. One Pikestuff building "Sally's Antiques" was named after his sister Sally, who was married to Roy Schnoor. Roy and Sally used to travel the country on weekends to train shows with their Mount Vernon Shops brass dealership. Roy did paint work for OMI, boxes with the red stamp "Custom Painted by OMI" is Roy's work. Roy was his brother in law's(Tony Wenzel) repairman for OL brass and after OL stopped and Challenger Imports took over, Roy continued to do the repair work for CIL. Roy passed a few years ago. Thanks Jim. I could not remember Tony's name, but I know he left BLI after some real problems began to show up. One of my friends knew a lot about this and told me the story at the time. I really got some bargains due to that breakup since they needed money fast. I had some of Roy's work if the red stamp paint work at Overland was done by him. Interesting how the people seem to float around and work in the hobby for different companies. Larry |
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Post by fiend540 on May 12, 2015 14:15:12 GMT -8
I really doubt that. They have a worldwide customer base, a specialization in narrowgauge, and a local market with lots of brass floating around. Even if no new brass item was built, Caboose would likely still find demand enough to keep that dept afloat. It would not surprise me. Last visit showed the brass cabinets very thinly populated, and that was mostly used or consignment They've looked about the same amount of "full" to me every visit over the pas 4 years. I don't pay attention enough to notice the turnaround or if anything is new but It's the largest brass department I've ever seen and It doesn't seem like they're trying to get away from it. |
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Post by grahamline on May 12, 2015 15:00:52 GMT -8
Can't imagine why Caboose Hobbies would dump the brass business. They don't have the same exposure as the importers. In markets other than North America, white metal and resin producers have filled market gaps with kits, but that hasn't been a big success here in the past, and probably won't fly in an RTR-oriented market.
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Post by calzephyr on May 12, 2015 15:14:08 GMT -8
It would not surprise me. Last visit showed the brass cabinets very thinly populated, and that was mostly used or consignment They've looked about the same amount of "full" to me every visit over the pas 4 years. I don't pay attention enough to notice the turnaround or if anything is new but It's the largest brass department I've ever seen and It doesn't seem like they're trying to get away from it. Caboose Hobbies brass stock has been mostly used and consignment for several years now. Two years ago, they had new items on the list from PSC that had come in 2009 and they were still listing the items to be reserved. I called and ask for one of those and they were removed. They do get items in if you reserve them but if you look at the codes which indicate store owned or consignment, you will not find many store owned items in brass. I normally go to the store when I am in Denver and enjoy a visit and find out what is going on. That street work this last year has been a pain to get around. I did purchase two used items from them this past year and one of the consignment items had an extra 10% off. They normally do not discount consignments on sale prices, but I managed to get a rather low priced model with an extra 10% on brass probably due to the fact they forgot to put the disclaimer in the fine print. The Caboose and Dan's Trains normally have both new and used brass items for sale. the Original Whistle Stop still has new brass and there may be a few others like The Train Shop in Santa Clara and Dakota Brass that stock brass, but most LHS do not stock a lot of brass in this era. Direct Sales probably does fairly well especially for Sunset 3R and 2R O scale, but only a few of those show up at any dealers I shop. I don't blame the dealers since stocking the latest PSC or DVP or GPM will tie up thousands of dollars for a long time with very little return. Only a few really hot items in brass will make money for small dealers. The latest Big Boy project will make money for Dan's Trains since his customers do purchase expensive brass that is exclusive. His older run brass is somewhat reasonable since there is less of a demand for old Westside and Balboa or PFM models. They still are nice but do not demand high prices since they were not highly detailed and most production runs were 500 to 1000 each. No demand for that type of production when they were imported several times at that high level of production for brass. Larry |
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Post by Spikre on May 12, 2015 15:40:58 GMT -8
 the only OMI item ever thought about was the GE UM20 A & B unit set. but was waiting for the as delivered UM12 and UM8s that ran on Erie for about 5 years. cant recall OMI ever doing them,so really couldn't figure out why ? a powered A-B set should have sold well back around 1980,but it just was never offered. the UM20s only lasted about 3 years on U.P.,so they fit an even smaller window than the when the set ran on Erie. Spikre 
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Post by Spikre on May 12, 2015 15:44:22 GMT -8
?? thought only the GEM GP40 and F9 had the Bachman drives ?? the SDP40F should have had some sort of KMT drive ? but never looked under one,so not sure what did move them ? Spikre  |
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2015 15:57:35 GMT -8
How come brass companies don't use kickstarter to fund newer projects? Other industries use it and it seems to be somewhat successful. Just a thought.
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Post by Chad on May 12, 2015 16:08:23 GMT -8
Well rather than speculate and spread rumor I sent an inquiry to Overland. If I find anything out I will let you know.
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Post by calzephyr on May 12, 2015 16:55:35 GMT -8
Well rather than speculate and spread rumor I sent an inquiry to Overland. If I find anything out I will let you know. Excellent idea. I talked to Brian two weeks ago and he said he had not imported any new brass since the O scale SD70Ace models, if I remember correctly. At the time, I did not have any reason to ask any other questions, but just thought is might be a slow down since brass is so expensive. Larry |
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Post by atsfan on May 12, 2015 17:23:05 GMT -8
If he isn't importing anything he is out of the brass business.
Pretty simple.
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on May 12, 2015 17:30:12 GMT -8
Well my email notifications are certainly not speculation and what I posted is FACTUAL. I even called Caboose Hobbies this afternoon and inquired about it in detail and he said all of Overland Models Inc brass projects have been cancelled and called off so NONE OF THE NEW MODELS will ever be made by OMI as they were told by Overland Models aka Brian at some point so that is why they cancelled all orders and sent the messages. You can speculate that what I posted is speculation but I assure you that it is accurate. I just think that Caboose Hobbies jumped the gun before Overland Models Inc were ready to announce it themselves about their demise of that division since they cancelled ALL of the customers pre-orders including mine that I kindly posted. Now the only thing we are waiting for is their formal announcement that it is over JUST LIKE the old Tower 55 Division. There were rumors about that division failing when OMI failed to release the SD70ACe and then changed their name to T55 a year before it was made formal.
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Post by atsfan on May 12, 2015 17:54:08 GMT -8
How come brass companies don't use kickstarter to fund newer projects? Other industries use it and it seems to be somewhat successful. Just a thought. How,is that different than required,paid deposits? |
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Post by Dear Leader on May 12, 2015 18:57:07 GMT -8
Well my email notifications are certainly not speculation and what I posted is FACTUAL. I even called Caboose Hobbies this afternoon and inquired about it in detail and he said all of Overland Models Inc brass projects have been cancelled and called off so NONE OF THE NEW MODELS will ever be made by OMI as they were told by Overland Models aka Brian at some point so that is why they cancelled all orders and sent the messages. You can speculate that what I posted is speculation but I assure you that it is accurate. I just think that Caboose Hobbies jumped the gun before Overland Models Inc were ready to announce it themselves about their demise of that division since they cancelled ALL of the customers pre-orders including mine that I kindly posted. Now the only thing we are waiting for is their formal announcement that it is over JUST LIKE the old Tower 55 Division. There were rumors about that division failing when OMI failed to release the SD70ACe and then changed their name to T55 a year before it was made formal. I'll wait until Brian makes it official that OMI is no longer importing brass models. Caboose Hobbies making such a statement is just second hand gossip and rumor. None of the brass dealers I have reservations with have not cancelled my reservations nor know anything about OMI leaving the brass business, and they are far more knowledgeable and reputable than caboose hobbies. |
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Post by lvrr325 on May 12, 2015 19:57:35 GMT -8
15 years ago the one hobby shop here that had a large amount of brass in the store the stuff was incredibly slow to move. A fair amount of that was consignment.
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Post by WP 257 on May 13, 2015 4:51:04 GMT -8
A. Overland has not been very prompt about updating their website in the past, sometimes going many months or even a year between updates, so why would they be prompt about the "final" update, which at this point will be a misuse of their time and money that could be more effectively spent on their plastic train business which has become their livelihood?
B. I bought plenty of models from Caboose Hobbies during the 1990's, and thought they were mostly consignment sellers even back then, not that there's anything wrong with that.
C. Consignment brass does typically take awhile to sell--but it does sell. My one friend had more than 20 pieces of his own brass inventory and sold them all (relatively recently) through the local train store where he works. It does sell, still.
D. My experience with Caboose Hobbies (and the other The Caboose sometimes confused with them) has always been that they are among the most reputable dealers in the brass business. Neither of them has ever been known for spreading inaccurate rumors. If they say it is so, then I believe it is so. They would not intentionally hang Brian Marsh out to dry by spreading rumors when he has been so good to them (and the hobby) through the years. They also have a responsibility not to string their customers along forever with "hopes" of something eventually being made. At least now those customers can pursue other venues in which to allocate their cash.
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Post by llxlocomotives on May 13, 2015 5:17:37 GMT -8
Were really not talking about a major conglomerate here.
OMI may have just made the decision to not import any new brass at this time. They could shift those assets over to do something that is profitable today. If and when the climate for brass becoimes favorable, then they may start importing again.
In the case of Caboose Hobbies, I sure that were treating OMI's stuff just like Atlas. They have pre orders on a model. The release date becomes delayed for some reason. Periodically, they are checking with the importer as to the status. This time, OMI said cancel because it is not coming together for what ever reason.
As soon as they know that, they are obligated to send the deposits back, if possible. Because they did that may mean OMI returned the money to them as well.
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Certainly wouldn't have even suggested such an idea back them. 
