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Post by mlehman on May 19, 2015 10:49:27 GMT -8
I suspect OMI did not require deposits, but many dealers did go that route in recent years. That may be one reason why there hasn't been a formal announcement from OMI. Doing so would put dealers who did require a deposit in a tough position. They were thinking they still had months if not years before they would actually need to come up with that cash again once the product was announced as scheduled to be on the boat. For some dealers, the sudden cancellation of all OMI brass could put a real bind in their cash flow in a sudden manner that might be troublesome.
That's one reason among several why I'm not going to beat OMI up for lack of a formal announcement here. It's a complicated biz and the players hold the cards close to their vests even when things are working well. Now they're not, so even more complex.
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Post by atsfan on May 20, 2015 3:34:25 GMT -8
I suspect OMI did not require deposits, but many dealers did go that route in recent years. That may be one reason why there hasn't been a formal announcement from OMI. Doing so would put dealers who did require a deposit in a tough position. They were thinking they still had months if not years before they would actually need to come up with that cash again once the product was announced as scheduled to be on the boat. For some dealers, the sudden cancellation of all OMI brass could put a real bind in their cash flow in a sudden manner that might be troublesome. That's one reason among several why I'm not going to beat OMI up for lack of a formal announcement here. It's a complicated biz and the players hold the cards close to their vests even when things are working well. Now they're not, so even more complex. If they are actually not making the models people have cash deposits on, then it is pretty fraudulent for all parties to remain silent because they spent the cash. Your description of what is going in describes a felony. |
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Post by WP 257 on May 20, 2015 4:39:26 GMT -8
Well, at some point the cost of brass became simply too much for dealers, and to a lesser extent, importers, to be able to front so much cash and then sit on models until they are delivered and paid for.
I don't know that anyone actually intended to commit a felony here, though certainly Canadian Model Trains did, in actual fact, as some found out too late. At one time CMT was one of the most "reputable" dealers--their word was good and their products were every bit as advertised or as stated over the phone. Somewhere along the way, either they got greedy or finances went way far south, or a combination of both.
Why would or should OMI say anything at all if they are not in control of the final sales? If in fact they were still not requiring deposits after all these years, but some dealers do for cash flow reasons, why is that of concern to OMI?
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Post by atsfan on May 20, 2015 20:16:33 GMT -8
Well, at some point the cost of brass became simply too much for dealers, and to a lesser extent, importers, to be able to front so much cash and then sit on models until they are delivered and paid for. I don't know that anyone actually intended to commit a felony here, though certainly Canadian Model Trains did, in actual fact, as some found out too late. At one time CMT was one of the most "reputable" dealers--their word was good and their products were every bit as advertised or as stated over the phone. Somewhere along the way, either they got greedy or finances went way far south, or a combination of both. Why would or should OMI say anything at all if they are not in control of the final sales? If in fact they were still not requiring deposits after all these years, but some dealers do for cash flow reasons, why is that of concern to OMI? Because they are their dealers. Overland can't wash their hands of it If they are not producing items they know people have put money down on them |
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Post by WP 257 on May 21, 2015 20:27:49 GMT -8
Sorry, that's ludicrous. They have no control over their dealer network, other than dealers who badly mistreat Overland customers get cut off from future purchases direct from Overland (One who outright lied to me and misrepresented Overland's product did get cut off).
You think they are going to track each and every dealer to see who takes deposits from their customers and who does not? Does anybody else do that? Not that I've ever heard of.
Once the items are paid for by the dealers, and the dealers accept delivery, they are free to sell them however they want to sell them.
Most model train importers are too busy doing what they do every day to monitor what happens once it leaves their warehouse.
With brass, if you can meet the minimum order requirements (which is actually a lot of money now), you get the pickup notice when the stuff comes in, and you get the merchandise. That's it.
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Post by calzephyr on May 28, 2015 8:29:11 GMT -8
Has anyone received any information from Overland or any other dealer besides Caboose Hobbies on this matter?
It is interesting there is a big silence on this subject from most dealers and Overland.
Larry
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Post by WP 257 on May 28, 2015 9:17:53 GMT -8
As stated above, I did email an inquiry to a large southern US new/used brass dealer asking what they were going to do with reservations, since Caboose Hobbies has officially cancelled all of theirs.
To date, I have received no reply at all, and can only assume I won't be seeing my deposit money, though small, again.
I doubt very much that OMI required deposits on brass cabooses, which were relatively low(er) cost items.
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Post by atsfan on May 28, 2015 11:49:15 GMT -8
That money is spent and gone.
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on May 31, 2015 20:15:49 GMT -8
Fact: Silence from any manufacture about business problems is a BIG sign of trouble.
If there was "rumor" that my Monster LED business was closed up and over, well if it was not true I would surely chime in to correct that rumor by stating the business is still operating and doing well. Now on the other hand if the rumor was true, I would feel somewhat embarrassed to send messages out about the failed business EITHER/OR if I was not embarrassed to do that, I would naturally feel anger/disappointment and would feel like I do not need to say anything about it at all.
I remember when Train Cat (The brass structure company) was having issues and seems like they still are (Or out of business) they took a while to address the problems then after that they just stop responding and updating their website. They simply made themselves disappear from site and mind. When you have a business you simply cannot just ignore it and cannot just ignore continual request of your company's status like TRAIN CAT MODEL SALES did! He recently claimed it was due to an illness of a wife and son. Which I could understand by to keep a business in tact you have to either close up and focus on them or manage to find someone or time to continue the business in order to be successful. I understand it is a smaller business such as I am and even Overland Models but for my business I have it set up so that I literally have Thousands of completed LEDs in stock that could easily make more than 150 kits which is realistically enough to fill orders for 2-3 months. I only keep those LEDs in an event of an emergency like a family loss, job loss, depression and not feeling like doing LEDs for a period of time, a Broken Hand or fingers, In the event I die, Well Loretta can continue my sales online until the stock is sold out.
TrainCat did none of that and he kept people hanging for long periods of time and people even lost payments on models. I tried for 2 years to buy a brass yard tower for $99 but he NEVER had them in stock and NEVER replied at all. Then one year out of the blue he shows up at Amherst Train Show in West Springfield. He did not even have that Brass tower in stock then. I have long gave up trying to buy that tower or anything from him. I really think that TrainCat will eventually disappear too.
So the silence from Overland Models shows a bad sign and definitely shows that there is truth to the "Rumor" Their website has not been updated in a couple of years but you see that the Overland Hobbies website is managed with every model train release.
I am waiting for the time when there is an "Official confirmation" of the defunct Overland Models Inc division. Then people will be all shocked and act like it is the first they heard of it. Then the uproar will begin for people wanting their deposits back from all the various dealers. I am so glad that I never even gave it a thought to give the "requested" deposits for the models I reserved. I would have already demanded my refund after that email. I did not feel the need to give a deposit, once they arrived I would have paid for them at that point. Well that is NOT going to happen now. RIP OMI.
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on May 31, 2015 20:17:42 GMT -8
On another funny note, After this message I have started to think that I am no longer even on the Overland Hobbies Mailing list that I was on. I would get emails regularly about deals and models being released but it has been weeks since I got any emails. Maybe I am wrong, Has anyone received any Overland hobbies Emails about sales or deals in the past three weeks?
One another Nother Note, TrainCats ordering forms still do not work. I just gave it a try just so that I would be sure of my assessment of their status. For years the ordering form has not worked every time I tried to order that darn Yard Tower. Shame
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Post by atsfan on Jun 1, 2015 2:41:18 GMT -8
Some People are still waiting for the Beatles reunion.
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Post by calzephyr on Jun 1, 2015 5:20:46 GMT -8
On another funny note, After this message I have started to think that I am no longer even on the Overland Hobbies Mailing list that I was on. I would get emails regularly about deals and models being released but it has been weeks since I got any emails. Maybe I am wrong, Has anyone received any Overland hobbies Emails about sales or deals in the past three weeks? One another Nother Note, TrainCats ordering forms still do not work. I just gave it a try just so that I would be sure of my assessment of their status. For years the ordering form has not worked every time I tried to order that darn Yard Tower. Shame Al I have received two emails from Brian this past week so the general hobby business for plastic seems to be OK> Larry |
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Post by bigblow69 on Jun 1, 2015 9:37:11 GMT -8
That money is spent and gone. Caboose Hobbies did that to me also. Took $200 of mine on a reservation and never returned it. |
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Post by atsfan on Jun 1, 2015 11:31:46 GMT -8
That money is spent and gone. Caboose Hobbies did that to me also. Took $200 of mine on a reservation and never returned it. Never put a deposit on any model railroad product. |
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Jun 1, 2015 11:38:27 GMT -8
On another funny note, After this message I have started to think that I am no longer even on the Overland Hobbies Mailing list that I was on. I would get emails regularly about deals and models being released but it has been weeks since I got any emails. Maybe I am wrong, Has anyone received any Overland hobbies Emails about sales or deals in the past three weeks? One another Nother Note, TrainCats ordering forms still do not work. I just gave it a try just so that I would be sure of my assessment of their status. For years the ordering form has not worked every time I tried to order that darn Yard Tower. Shame Al I have received two emails from Brian this past week so the general hobby business for plastic seems to be OK> Larry Ahhh Haa! See. So that means Brian has very likely read this topic and received many email inquiries and has not addressed one! So the rumor is looking more and more like reality. And again, I have not received any Overland Hobbies emails about any models or sales in a couple of weeks since posting this. You still doubt OMI is Dead people? Has anyone received information from Brian to the contrary? |
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Post by WP 257 on Jun 1, 2015 13:17:49 GMT -8
Well, sometimes it's hard to truly admit that it's over.
He may be hoping for some kind of miracle, or perhaps in discussions with a buyer of some sort? Those discussions can drag out awhile.
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Post by atsfan on Jun 1, 2015 16:12:57 GMT -8
Well, sometimes it's hard to truly admit that it's over. He may be hoping for some kind of miracle, or perhaps in discussions with a buyer of some sort? Those discussions can drag out awhile. What exactly is there to buy? |
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Post by WP 257 on Jun 1, 2015 19:43:28 GMT -8
What is there to buy?
It's quite amazing all the stuff that an importer may have on hand.
Likely some projects. Somebody put time and money into developing projects that have not yet been built...perhaps due to builder reasons or lack of financing--but that research time and the design packages, in whatever state they may be in, would have value to some folks. Perhaps they have research information on hand for past projects that someone else might want to re-release in the future, perhaps with a few upgrades.
For example (though perhaps slightly unrelated) Bowser was still trying to sell their steam locomotive tooling and actually at one point did have a prospective buyer lined up to buy said tooling. The amount of money tied up just in tooling is not chump change at all, but is big money.
Back to Overland Models: There are still most likely some parts on hand for past models, and it is likely that repairs to past Overland products will bring in a little money for somebody. They have a collection of models--some of which may be one of a kind and therefore worth quite a lot of money to brass collectors, and I'm sure they have other saleable items and/or facilities, buildings, etc. too.
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Post by atsfan on Jun 2, 2015 6:01:47 GMT -8
What is there to buy? It's quite amazing all the stuff that an importer may have on hand. Likely some projects. Somebody put time and money into developing projects that have not yet been built...perhaps due to builder reasons or lack of financing--but that research time and the design packages, in whatever state they may be in, would have value to some folks. Perhaps they have research information on hand for past projects that someone else might want to re-release in the future, perhaps with a few upgrades. For example (though perhaps slightly unrelated) Bowser was still trying to sell their steam locomotive tooling and actually at one point did have a prospective buyer lined up to buy said tooling. The amount of money tied up just in tooling is not chump change at all, but is big money. Back to Overland Models: There are still most likely some parts on hand for past models, and it is likely that repairs to past Overland products will bring in a little money for somebody. They have a collection of models--some of which may be one of a kind and therefore worth quite a lot of money to brass collectors, and I'm sure they have other saleable items and/or facilities, buildings, etc. too. In 2015 anyone buying into a brass company must be looking to loose money. Overland owns no tolling. Maybe a few parts. Who is going to buy them to try and make money? As for a few rare models, they can be off loaded on ebay easily. In short, there is nothing to buy. No factory no nothing other than a brand name. |
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Post by WP 257 on Jun 2, 2015 13:01:58 GMT -8
How do you know?
Have you ever visited them in person?
They most likely have a lot more stuff on hand than you would ever think...which they might sell to someone to finance their current business.
Just sayin'.
John
P.S. It was many years after the "closing" that PFM liquidated their remaining inventory. One large dealer apparently bought it all...including well more than 300 brand new copies of the Berkshire and Texas Types book, which they are slowly selling at bargain basement price. I know this because Ebay tells you how many copies of the book they have sold, and I just bought one myself. In addition there was a whole collection of rare one of a kind models...
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Post by atsfan on Jun 2, 2015 13:23:31 GMT -8
How do you know? Have you ever visited them in person? They most likely have a lot more stuff on hand than you would ever think...which they might sell to someone to finance their current business. Just sayin'. John P.S. It was many years after the "closing" that PFM liquidated their remaining inventory. One large dealer apparently bought it all...including well more than 300 brand new copies of the Berkshire and Texas Types book, which they are slowly selling at bargain basement price. I know this because Ebay tells you how many copies of the book they have sold, and I just bought one myself. In addition there was a whole collection of rare one of a kind models... Do you seriously think, seriously, that there is a mystery stash of inventory of models and parts and he negotiating their sale? Or tooling? He is sitting on all of this stuff and it is not listed already for sale, or has been listed ? If that is the case ( which defies all common business sense) then it would not be surprising the business did not last. And that has nothing to do with cancelled production and dealers keeping deposits. |
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Post by WP 257 on Jun 2, 2015 13:44:04 GMT -8
I know for a fact they have a collection as several models were loaned from it for photographs published in one book by Dan Glasure, so just as PFM had a collection, so does or did OMI, and I bet it's not a cheap value collection, but far from it.
It has everything to do with why one might not come out and admit that the end has actually arrived--if one is negotiating with other parties to sell all or a portion of the business or collection, one would not destroy or damage the brand name (any further) or do anything (else) to compromise the value of whatever might remain.
I'm saying you don't know as much as you think you know about the train business. It takes a whole lot of "stuff" to run a business even selling "hobby" "toys" to collectors.
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Post by Spikre on Jun 2, 2015 15:22:14 GMT -8
?? ATSF3869, how much are they charging for the Berkshire book ? even though the Erie S Class is slighted from what is recalled here it may still be a worthwhile book to pick up. also have part of an old article series from Railfan on Van Swerigen Berkshires,that doesn't even include the Erie S Class,or the C&O T-1s,or later PRR J1s. now if it wasn't for the S Class,the following Van Swerigen Berks could have looked much different,skimpy boilers,small 63" drivers which all previous Berkshires used,etc. by blowing up the S to the C&O T,then shrinking back to the NKP S Class,the Erie Berks surely do belong in the Van Swerigen Category, as do the L&N M-1s. Roller Bearings, Erie Berks were built at the Dawn of the Roller Bearing Age, built with Solid Brass Bearings.Also believe they had Built Up Frames,which led to their Quick replacement after 1950 . info found here has NO NKP Berks built with Roller Bearings,but they may have had 1 piece Cast Steel Engine Beds,or the S-2 and S-3 may have had them ? still looking to Confirm that. the 1949 L&N M-1s were Full Roller Bearing equipped. Edit -- the Van Swerigen Berkshire series was by Eugene Huddleston,it did include the L&N M-1s,but not the Erie S Classes. Spikre  |
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Post by WP 257 on Jun 2, 2015 16:08:30 GMT -8
Spikre--
The book is $19.75, including shipping to you (not Priority Mail--that's extra). No box cover and no dust jacket, but mine was indeed new, and was packed very well in an actual box with bubble wrap all around.
On the evil auction site...344 sold, more than 10 available. Seller is Dan Glasure (www.brasstrains.com). I think you can also purchase direct from the brasstrains.com website at the same price.
I forgot to read the NKP chapter...was focusing on the 2-10-4's. Perhaps later on tonight I can check for you on the roller bearings...
It's still a great read and one of the best books ever done on steam power (according to some reviews I saw recently). There's also a PFM book about Northerns, and one about Mountains, with one of the authors being the same...All are considered to be good books, but I've never seen the others that I know of.
I don't know so much that the S class is slighted all that much--several pages were devoted to it. They seem to think the later engines had improvements, but they do discuss how the Erie S Class established an unequaled record of service and that smart shippers who wanted the fastest possible routing began shipping Santa Fe to Erie. I don't really see that as a "slight" myself. The Erie fleet was massive at 105 delivered in about 2 years and exceeded even NKP's fleet of Berks.
There aren't all that many books out there on 2-10-4 operations and testing, so for me that alone makes it worthwhile.
John
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Post by atsfan on Jun 2, 2015 16:42:55 GMT -8
I know for a fact they have a collection as several models were loaned from it for photographs published in one book by Dan Glasure, so just as PFM had a collection, so does or did OMI, and I bet it's not a cheap value collection, but far from it. It has everything to do with why one might not come out and admit that the end has actually arrived--if one is negotiating with other parties to sell all or a portion of the business or collection, one would not destroy or damage the brand name (any further) or do anything (else) to compromise the value of whatever might remain. I'm saying you don't know as much as you think you know about the train business. It takes a whole lot of "stuff" to run a business even selling "hobby" "toys" to collectors. It is always great to see people posting "facts" and that other people don't know facts. I will wait to see the next Overland release that actually comes out in people's hands. Or, the announcement that the business has sold and is now in new hands and open for business. In the meantime I will keep hoping the tooth fairy leaves me cash under the pillow tonight…….. |
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Post by WP 257 on Jun 3, 2015 5:05:18 GMT -8
Spikre--
Book says the NKP S-2 class was delivered with roller bearing drivers and all engine axles.
There is also a photo of brand new S-3 #770 in 1948 which clearly shows a roller bearing pony truck axle, but the drive rods are nowhere near the size of the 2-10-4 roller bearing equipped rods on following engines like the giant KCS 2-10-4, but those had a lot more power.
John
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Post by gevohogger on Jun 3, 2015 5:19:08 GMT -8
It is always great to see people posting "facts" and that other people don't know facts. Who? You? Or other people? |
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Post by atsfan on Jun 3, 2015 9:07:00 GMT -8
It is always great to see people posting "facts" and that other people don't know facts. Who? You? Or other people? Read his post. |
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Post by Spikre on Jun 3, 2015 9:08:08 GMT -8
 ATSF3869, guess I'm spoiled by the Chapter in Erie Power on the Berkshires. they really went into them fully. according to Mainline W&LE Berkshire article,NKP stated putting the Roller Bearing ex-W&LE tenders behind some of the NKP locos as the W&LE Berks were retired,but no definite number was given. believe with the Pere Marquette Berks that C&O had a slightly larger fleet for a time than NKP. Thanks for the info on the book,will look into that later. have seen the Northern Book years ago,it seemed good,with DL&W,D&H and LV being some of the smaller roads with Northerns. guess add in NYC, Reading and WM,plenty in the Northeast. cant recall ever seeing the Mountain book,so cant give You fuzzy memories of it. Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Jun 3, 2015 9:10:27 GMT -8
 hit the wrong button or something here ? Erie --- 105 Berkshires built for Erie,largest Original Fleet. C&O --- 90 Bershires built for C&O,add 39 Pere Marquette,largest Berkshire owner. NKP --- 80 Built for NKP, add 31 W&LE Berkshires,2nd largest Berkshire operator. info from Railfan and Railroad, September 1984,Eugene Huddleston Author, pages,,34 - 39,part 3 of a 3 part series. Spikre
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