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Post by The Ferro Kid on Dec 27, 2015 11:11:42 GMT -8
I've wondered over the years how many casual observers never saw the wheel-on-rail of the Conrail "can opener."
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Post by mlehman on Dec 27, 2015 13:10:44 GMT -8
Meh...I'm not a big fan of the replacement logo myself, simply because I thought the old one was plenty good and had lots of tradition behind it. But if the point was objecting to the possibility (because I think the whole subliminal message thing is rather iffy) that the artist was invoking sexual imagery, responding with more of the same rather tends to dilute the point you're trying to make. And whether intentional or not, it's not exactly like anyone saying so is coming up with anything original. subliminalmanipulation.blogspot.com/2010/10/introduction-subliminal-perception-is.htmlThe text in your comments would be appropriate for the most part as a response. I rather suspect most of us can see the "point" of what was being said. Did anyone actually need another, more blatant image to figure out the point of those and similar comments in the thread? I don't think so. What did you expect MR would do with that image? Just leave it? I think the expectation that MR should just leave that up is not just a stretch, but suggests that it wasn't just a thoughtless act then, but it remains so. Folks are always wringing their hands over how to get kids interested in the hobby. I rather think that MR doesn't think appealing to the 15 yo kid in us in this way is the way to go, to put it mildly. Going with adult content seems rather counterproductive to the future of the hobby. If you think changing a logo leads to a lot of fingerwagging and pointing, working towards replacing plan foldouts with Miss Modelrific January would top that by a long shot. If it was your business, more power to you whatever you want to do, if you want to tease with that sort of thing. But to work up indignation over MR pulling that down is just this side of ridiculous. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Dec 27, 2015 15:38:51 GMT -8
Mike,
The point was being made that the new logo is, shall we say, open to interpretation. People who aren't in our hobby don't know it's a flanged wheel, and if the new "nmra.org" logo was meant to send a universal message to the general public, then it has failed miserably because the public thinks it's something else. That you think the simply mirrored image is "blatant" only proves the point.
Either it's a flanged wheel or it's not. If it's a blatant adult message, the NMRA should scrap "nmra.org" posthaste and create a logo that actually represents our hobby to the general public and not what appears to be a breast cancer support organization.
The fact that MR, a company that knows what a flanged wheel is, found the mirrored image offensive should be enough to get the NMRA to change it. I'm not mad at MR for deleting it, I'm just stupefied to know that the NMRA sees no problem with it. And to be fair, Kalmbach should also never show the "nmra.org" logo in any of their publications or website ever again if they want to be consistent about it.
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Post by mlehman on Dec 27, 2015 16:10:28 GMT -8
Paul,
I brought up the imaginative interpretation issue not because I give much weight to it, but because if people wanted to discuss it, that was entirely possible. I think it's a crock myself. If people insist on imagining it that way because they don't like the logo, that's fine. I doubt anyone intended to push that button at the NMRA. I suspect MR felt the same way.
Now if someone wants to come up with the internal memo that has the NMRA telling the artists to sex it up a bit, then maybe you have something. No one is suggesting that, just that they don't like the logo, think they didn't have enough input, or have some other harder to define reason why they don't like it.
I thought the topic here was "gee, got banned at MR". I have my own opinions about how David ended up being persona non grata over at MR. But at least that was an argument/conflict/issue that was on topic and on which reasonable people can differ. I'm not sure how an image of the NMRA logo morphed into someone's rude re-imagination of it contributes to a discussion in a positive manner. I'll freely admit it's a matter of taste how relevant that might be to the discussion of the politics of the logo, but I just think that's worlds apart from David's concern, so equating the "Twin Peaks" to that is a cheap shot at Kalmbach while simultaneously trivializing David's concern.
The question for me comes down to if I was running a magazine that depended on an image of wholesome family entertainment, I'd probably fire the staffer that tried to tell me what the Weasel had to say with it is more important and going to balance out the angry letters it would likely draw -- or worse, the subscriptions likely to be dropped without further comment. If it was your money in play, I suspect your feelings might be somewhat different.
And it's not like there's not a 100 million other places such creative artistry can be posted on the internet, too.
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Post by atsfan on Dec 27, 2015 19:56:36 GMT -8
So here it is.
The NMRA changes its logo and 99+% of its members are not aware they are doing it, nor have any say in it.
The logo is absurd. It has nothing to do with MODEL Railroading and looks like two women's naked breasts.
Everybody knows it. Everybody sees it. But the NMRA Diehards stick with it and tell people to go find chapter and verse of the bylaws to prove they cant.
Meanwhile Kalmbach bans showing the logo on their forums because it isnt family friendly (because it looks like two you know whats).
If the logo is that bad they should ban it outright. Or the NMRA should change it.
All of this is fodder for why people dont bother with the NMRA and why it is shrinking in relevance nationwide.
Hint: does RPM have massive bylaws or logo changes ?
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Dec 27, 2015 20:21:24 GMT -8
Mike,
Again, I don't begrudge MR's actions in deleting the mirrored nmra.org logo. It's their website; they make the rules.
The point then and now is that the nmra.org logo is poor, both in appearance and taste. It looks like human anatomy when it should look like something model railroad related. That MR banned it just because WW doubled it and mirrored the "wheel" is proof of that. The strangeness of it all does make me wonder: why is it that one "wheel" is okay, but two "wheels" are offensive?
But the question for you, Mike, is that if you were running a national association that depended on an image of wholesome family entertainment, would you fire the staffer that sold that "offensive to MR" nmra.org logo to you?
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Post by mlehman on Dec 28, 2015 1:23:32 GMT -8
Paul,
I've go no reason to read into it what a few people claim to see. It's a wheel, pure and simple.
And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar...
Maybe my disdain for such arguments is because I believe that we live in a society where people claim to see all sorts of things as symbolic, conveying hidden messages, written in a code that only a few claim they know and the rest of us are just heathens for not seeing it their way. People hold those opinions as some sort of "truth" that needs no substantive basis, as they do about much of the rest of the dreck that passes for news these days. Then there's the obsession with celebrity (go there if you want to find lots of hidden messaging about sex and you'll likely find what you're looking for.) There's an entire industry of invented news and crises.
And all that while things are far more substantive importance in the lives of ordinary citizens get ignored.
I've also yet to see anyone substantiate the claim the whole darn wheel was slipping through in the middle of the night without anyone watching or that the decisions leading up to it were nefarious, underhanded and -- apparently -- oversexed. I'm not going to bother with digging through my old issues of NMRA stuff, but I recall a number of reports on it, solicitation of various proposals and a selection process. Too many people involved to support a claim that a few folks who were up to no good .sneaked this in the door when no one was looking.
Then there's the fact that much of what we're bombarded with about the moral decline of American is simply sins that are in the eye of the beholder. The accused are just normal folks going about their lives, perhaps in a different manner than those observing them would, but so what? If people are finding problems with others, I often conclude that the relentless blaming of other people's moral choices is the problem, not the folks they want to put under the microscope.
Then there's the fact that Kalmbach is a known entity, with address, and a reputation with readers and advertisers to protect. Then someone who's not otherwise identified than by an anonymous screen name, with essentially nothing to lose wants to take them to task for crushing down his freedom when he shows up to graffiti the place with objectionable images. I think a plain reading of MR's policy would suggest that they'd prefer that such not show up on the doorstep. It's their forum, their rules. I'm not sure what else is left to say.
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Post by oldmuley on Dec 28, 2015 7:49:38 GMT -8
Didn't they change the logo something like 5 years ago? It seems like this "the logo looks like a boob" discussion should have died out 4 1/2 years ago.
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Post by atsfan on Dec 28, 2015 8:07:04 GMT -8
Didn't they change the logo something like 5 years ago? It seems like this "the logo looks like a boob" discussion should have died out 4 1/2 years ago. The OP showed how his posting of it and the discussion was banned from the MR forum, hence this discussion started. Oh BTW, if the standard is that a topic has been discussed before and thus should have "died out", 99 percent of this and every other forum would not exist. |
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Post by atsfan on Dec 28, 2015 8:12:22 GMT -8
Paul, I've go no reason to read into it what a few people claim to see. It's a wheel, pure and simple. And sometimes a cigar is just a cigar... Maybe my disdain for such arguments is because I believe that we live in a society where people claim to see all sorts of things as symbolic, conveying hidden messages, written in a code that only a few claim they know and the rest of us are just heathens for not seeing it their way. People hold those opinions as some sort of "truth" that needs no substantive basis, as they do about much of the rest of the dreck that passes for news these days. Are you included in the people holding their own opinion as "truth" ? You write it is "a wheel pure and simple", as in, the truth with no substantive basis. You "disdain" people making those arguments by your own admission. |
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Post by talltim on Dec 30, 2015 15:58:35 GMT -8
So here it is. The NMRA changes its logo and 99+% of its members are not aware they are doing it, nor have any say in it. The logo is absurd. It has nothing to do with MODEL Railroading and looks like two women's naked breasts. I'm struggling to see four breasts...  |
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Post by atsfan on Dec 30, 2015 19:38:31 GMT -8
So here it is. The NMRA changes its logo and 99+% of its members are not aware they are doing it, nor have any say in it. The logo is absurd. It has nothing to do with MODEL Railroading and looks like two women's naked breasts. I'm struggling to see four breasts... Probably some grammer problems there. Bookers will do that to you.......... |
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Post by atsfan on Dec 30, 2015 19:43:43 GMT -8
So here it is. The NMRA changes its logo and 99+% of its members are not aware they are doing it, nor have any say in it. The logo is absurd. It has nothing to do with MODEL Railroading and looks like two women's naked breasts. I'm struggling to see four breasts... Probably some grammer problems there. Bookers will do that to you.......... |
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Post by davidmbedard on Jan 3, 2016 19:00:01 GMT -8
Looks like I'm the "hot" topic over on the MR forums. Nice to see the people who miss me, and interesting to see who wasn't ever a friend or supporter. It's interesting how much people read into posts...including emotion and candor. It's a limitation and weakness of posting online. Just saying......
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Post by davidmbedard on Jan 4, 2016 12:24:59 GMT -8
Never mind...that thread was also removed.
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Post by atsfan on Jan 4, 2016 13:26:27 GMT -8
Never mind...that thread was also removed. Just noticing that you announce joining here by telling us you are banned elsewhere, and that you wanted out of there, and now you are posting here about the place you left and are tracking discussions about you there. Perhaps you really want to be back there and you should rejoin and eliminate the step of keeping members of another forum the status of discussing you on another forum you quit. Just saying. Cheers and Hapoy New Year.  |
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Post by davidmbedard on Jan 4, 2016 19:53:51 GMT -8
I expected that reply. Thanks.
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Jan 4, 2016 20:39:46 GMT -8
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 5, 2016 5:15:18 GMT -8
I expected that reply. Thanks. Well, at least he didn't sugar-coat it for ya. "Great Minds Discuss Ideas; Average Minds Discuss Events; Small Minds Discuss People". Why not post some models or modeling, instead of posting about Model Railroader's forums drama? |
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Post by davidmbedard on Jan 5, 2016 6:09:52 GMT -8
Post models in this thread? That wouldn't make much sense, would it....as this is the lounge subforum.
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Post by Judge Doom on Jan 5, 2016 10:11:32 GMT -8
Post models in this thread? That wouldn't make much sense, would it....as this is the lounge subforum. Gimme a break, we all know how forums work. I'm suggesting doing something constructive on this forum (AS A WHOLE) instead of coming on here and raising a stink just because you got kicked off Model Railroader's forum because you didn't want to play nice in MR's sandbox. There's no reason for this whole thread to exist in the first place - it's an attention grab. They banned you, get over it. Signing posts as "David (banned till 2167) Bedard" doesn't help. You didn't want to play nice, or "sugar-coat" stuff, or continue to be abrasive, or heed whatever advice the moderator was giving you - fine, but it should come as no surprise when they show you the door. By telling them to delete all your posts you probably burned that bridge pretty good too. And if you keep going down the road you're on right now, in a few months you'll be banned here as well. That's the way I see it, and that's the way a good number of others here (and there) see it as well. |
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Post by atsfan on Jan 5, 2016 12:35:19 GMT -8
Post models in this thread? That wouldn't make much sense, would it....as this is the lounge subforum. Dacid why not we let this thread go to pasture. I would love to see your layout or other models in the HO scale forum. Please post and share what you are working on etc. Thanks |
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Post by davidmbedard on Jan 5, 2016 13:22:09 GMT -8
Wow...ok....I've spend 15 years of my life on both the MR forums AND the old Atlas forums. The one reason I didn't join the ARF sooner was because I didn't know it existed.
Another reason I tend to lurk on here and not contribute (after I joined) is because there are a few current members on here that have a history with me...including one who threatened personal violence with me years ago. Also one who has stolen intellectual property from an MR post I made over a decade ago and is currently profiting from it.
You don't want me to mention the other forum again...fine...however, the reason I asked that my contributions be removed is because it wouldnt be ethical that I leave (and yes...the email I got from the moderator was very threatening...think legal) and they get to have my helpful posts as something they can cultivate? Yes I was a positive Contributer mostly.
Anyways, I was hoping that sharing here would be a better option.....but so far it seems the mob mentality beatdown is tough to crack. I don't know who Judge Doom is or what his intentions are...but I suppose over time he will see what I'm about?
David B
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Post by mlehman on Jan 5, 2016 14:48:07 GMT -8
SNIP You don't want me to mention the other forum again...fine...however, the reason I asked that my contributions be removed is because it wouldnt be ethical that I leave (and yes...the email I got from the moderator was very threatening...think legal) and they get to have my helpful posts as something they can cultivate? Yes I was a positive Contributer mostly. SNIP Many forums take the approach that your posts there are theirs if you read the fine print. Not sure what legal mumbo-jumbo they sent and whether it was relevant specifically to your request to delete material, but even if the manner in which it was taken down wasn't gracious, the act itself was. Oftentimes, when this happens, however, if people made comments to your original posts, those are toast also because that's how the software works. You may not have been concerned about that (or maybe didn't anticipate that) and I don't know whether this applied in this case. But it often does and in meeting such a request, it may PO a while new bunch of folks. Perhaps in a more gentle way than J. Doom, I would also suggest that if you're willing to tell it like it is, then you're also willing to accept the foreseeable consequences of your actions. Whining about it at length, past the need for an informative introduction, is somewhat at odds with the no-nonsense place you started from. Better to live up to that, than suggest you can dish it out, but continue on at length that you aren't too fond of taking it. |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Jan 5, 2016 15:07:23 GMT -8
Another reason I tend to lurk on here and not contribute (after I joined) is because there are a few current members on here that have a history with me...including one who threatened personal violence with me years ago. Also one who has stolen intellectual property from an MR post I made over a decade ago and is currently profiting from it. You don't want me to mention the other forum again...fine...however, the reason I asked that my contributions be removed is because it wouldnt be ethical that I leave (and yes...the email I got from the moderator was very threatening...think legal) and they get to have my helpful posts as something they can cultivate? Anyways, I was hoping that sharing here would be a better option.....but so far it seems the mob mentality beatdown is tough to crack. David B Maybe we should get a go fund me account going for some crying towels. It doesn't look like you have much to contribute but whoa-is-me.  So far all we see is as Mike says some sort of 'oh look at me, such a great guy but I got ko'd from MR. Pity me and thank me for coming on over here but just remember I'm banned from MR, and oh by the way I have issues with people here, too, so....' |
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Post by davidmbedard on Jan 5, 2016 15:28:51 GMT -8
You guys are absolutely correct. I have nothing more to add.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 6, 2016 0:55:11 GMT -8
I can understand how hard it is when you spend a big chunk of time on a forum only to get banned, but the fact of the matter is it's all the past. There is nothing you can do to change it and no one here can change it either. Why not make a fresh start and just start all over by putting the other forum in the past? Maybe they were justified in banning you David and maybe they weren't, but what does it matter now? It's a shame you had to get off to a bad start here, but maybe you can still turn it around. The victim complex won't get you very far anywhere so there is no point in carrying it around. This forum and many others are about sharing our hobby, not about sharing drama.
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Post by riogrande on Jan 6, 2016 4:52:11 GMT -8
David, glad you found the ARF forums. In the end people are the same everywhere; I don't think it matters which forum you go to. I think monolith put it well - stick to "sharing our hobby" and not "sharing drama" and the signal lights will stay green.
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Post by mlehman on Jan 6, 2016 8:10:52 GMT -8
I agree. It's the future that counts here. We know the past ended in somewhat of a misery. I'm OK with noting where that end point intersects with new opportunities. David's modeling is top-notch and can speak for itself, so I think not letting the past weight it down is the best way to show what he's all about. Besides, if the past is always sitting on David's doorstep, then eventually another dog will come along and want to fight it. Then folks will line up to take sides in that, who, ahem, may have had prior experience and we've avoided it. That would largely undo the opportunity to keep the past in the past and undermine the idea of a fresh start. This is more a practical thing than an emotional one for everyone else, although I'm sure it can't help but stir passion in David. Now, to take a tangent we got on earlier about the NMRA and disambiguate it from here, I received some response off-forum to the factually fractured fables mentioned earlier about the new NMRA logo. I'll be taking that over here if people want to discuss the facts: atlasrescueforum.proboards.com/thread/4360/facts-on-nmra-logo-kerfuffle |
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TA462
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Post by TA462 on Feb 4, 2016 7:49:25 GMT -8
Don't feel bad Dave. I was a member there for probably 15 years or more and got banned because some idiot sent me a PM about me not respecting him or something like that. I told him to go..... We'll you can guess. He reported me and I was banned until 2165. My wife just found out she had breast cancer that very day and I was not in the best of moods. I asked about joining again but Steve Ott basically told me no. Funny story, I met Steve Ott and a few other of the MR guys at a show about a year later and I was going to tell him who I was but changed my mind. I guess MR doesn't like Canadians named Dave, LOL. Besides I was getting tired of the oh woo is me posts by certain members there.
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