ScaleTrains Q&A

[mdvle]

ScaleTrains Q&A - August 27 following ES44 announcement

Recollections (possible errors - difficult to keep up)

- next new tooling announcements scheduled for Springfield in January (4 to 5 items likely)
- 2nd kit classics item to be announced at Springfield
- next year looking like a very big year in terms of loco and freight car announcements
- C39-8 - poor seller - first run covered tooling, 2nd run small profit, maybe another run late next year
- carbon black cars bad seller
- new tooling for a loco is "multi 6-figures" in cost
- this means a lot of unique locos aren't viable as potential models
- SD70ACe T4 - not at this time - requires a new frame, bunch of new tooling, given lack of roadnames...

- Australian/Brazilian roadnames likely

- passenger cars - unlikely given tooling cost ($100k) vs roadname options - all the good choices already taken.

- parts - maybe in the future, adding them to the website would be labor intensive and cost a lot of money, would likely lose a lot of money on it - it would be a "labor of love"
- Money No Object models to make - Shane - C&EI Dixie Flagler steam loco - but Shane would likely be the only buyer
- Money No Object model to make - ScaleTrains - UP Coal Turbine - they have tried to research it but have been unsuccessful
- S scale / O scale - have seriously looked at it, maybe once they have more base products providing cash following

[riogrande]

Ok, do maybe another shot at the GP30 next year.

[mdvle]

Aug 27, 2020 15:48:34 GMT -8 riogrande said:

Ok, do maybe another shot at the GP30 next year.

No surprise the response to almost any request for loco X (interesting few to no requests for freight cars) was a maybe - none of the manufacturers are in general going to tip their hand.

But he did say one of the goals at the moments was to plant the flag, to be first to a platform that other models/variations could be made from.

So I would guess the GP30 will happen from someone at some point.

[hovehicle]

Wasn't there supposed to be an announcement of a trailer in the not-too-distant future? ANY type of vehicle would be welcome. Oh, and if Scaletrains is interested, RPS could be for sale soon.

Vito L.

[edwardsutorik]

GP30's are nice. And so are GP30B's.

I'd like a UP GP22:





Well, and some nice GP35's.



Ed

[migalyto]

According to the video, the Operator versions will now be outfitted with the full LokSound V5 decoders. That's kind of a nice upgrade.

[unittrain]

I hope to see a GP30 from Scaletrains but it seems that the SD45 sales are kinda slow! I purchased some Pennsy units and unfortunately none of the Pennsys are sold out yet, not even SP! I really hope sales are good on these but not sure from the evidence of many still in stock.

[rails4dmv]

I'd welcome a definitive & updated Dash 8 model from Scaletrains.

Sorry to hear no interest in passenger cars (yet), but I understand the economics. Better to stay in your lane and go with what works to keep the lights on.

But, if Scaletrains changes their minds, I would love for them to tackle California/Surfliner Cars or Budd/Nippon Sharyo Bi-Level Gallery Cars, since they said all the good choices have been taken.

[mdvle]

Aug 29, 2020 6:08:50 GMT -8 rails4dmv said:

I'd welcome a definitive & updated Dash 8 model from Scaletrains.

Sorry to hear no interest in passenger cars (yet), but I understand the economics. Better to stay in your lane and go with what works to keep the lights on.

But, if Scaletrains changes their minds, I would love for them to tackle California/Surfliner Cars or Budd/Nippon Sharyo Bi-Level Gallery Cars, since they said all the good choices have been taken.

Speculation only, but I wouldn't be surprised to see California Cars from Athearn - Athearn seems to talk about them and has noted that surprisingly there is a lot of interest in California Cars around the US.

And of course Athearn requested info about the Budd gallery cars a couple of months back to at least look into them so that will I would guess at least in the near term make those unattractive.

Will we see other things?  Difficult to day.  The Amfleets and Viewliners have problems with existing models taking too much of the market so could well be risky though someone might surprise us.

[Deleted]

Well, nice to see a manufacturer comment somewhat publicly about actual tooling costs for a new locomotive!

Perhaps that will end some of the endless speculation about model production coming back here and about how cheaply it actually can be done.

The truth is very likely that sales of a GP-30 would need to be better than SD-45 in order for it to get done.

They need winners.

[markfj]

I’m always impressed with ScaleTrain’s transparency. Both ScaleTrains and Rapido seem to be very forthcoming in the details of what it takes to get a product to market.
Yeah, I want a GP30 too, but I know it might take a while.

“Multi 6-figures” in tooling cost for a loco…dang, you could buy a nice house with that kind of money! 

Any hints about a steam offering?
 
Thanks, Mark J.
Reading, PA

[edwardsutorik]

Can someone explain to me why we need a new GP30 more than a GP35?

Ed

[middledivision]

Do the 30 first, then the 35. Or vice-versa. Same frame.

[Christian]

Aug 29, 2020 7:47:23 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

Can someone explain to me why we need a new GP30 more than a GP35?

What he said!

The Proto GP30 is showing it's age. BUT, there hasn't been a GP35 that comes close to that GP30 and there were a lot more GP35s on real railroads. Yeah, it just looks like a diesel and the GP30 is cute. Cute sells.

[Deleted]

GP28 and a GP35 series would be cool. The GP28 hasn't been done in plastic...other than kitbashing them from Kato units...

With that being said...Kato is still the best GP35 around, IMO.

[lvrr325]

Planning things for Springfield next year is a real gamble. I'd say the odds are like 50-50 at best if the show even happens. I'm already seeing shows cancelled into December, every large show I set up at isn't happening (Hamburg, Syracuse, Albany GTE) and a couple of small ones gave up already too.

[brammy]

Aug 29, 2020 9:34:49 GMT -8 lvrr325 said:

Planning things for Springfield next year is a real gamble. I'd say the odds are like 50-50 at best if the show even happens. I'm already seeing shows cancelled into December, every large show I set up at isn't happening (Hamburg, Syracuse, Albany GTE) and a couple of small ones gave up already too.

I live in MA, and I don't see Springfield happening. The Hub show in December was cancelled. I also expect the Mass Governor's limitation in indoor gatherings to persist into January. I also heard from a dealer that if it happens, the show will only be in two buildings, with double-width hallways. I made the decision even if by some chance the show happens, rather than go I will visit my favorite local store and spend money there.

That said, I think they may do some virtual thing for the big manufacturers and clinics.

[riogrande]

Aug 29, 2020 7:47:23 GMT -8 edwardsutorik said:

Can someone explain to me why we need a new GP30 more than a GP35?

Ed

Here is what diesel author Joseph Strapac commented:

They [GP35's] broke no new ground as far as their builder was concerned - they were supposed to be a refinement of the GP30, with another 250 horsepower to match that of the GE's U25B. Many western roads, the Rio Grande included, have found them to be troubles-prone due to the limitations of their electrical system (for the SP, UP, and Santa Fe, problems with the GP35's had the result of no orders for GP40's!)

So from a RR point of view, they were not very successful. In the case of the D&RGW, the entire class of 22, purchased in 1964 were down graded after only 8 years in 1972 to B unit status. "Officially", Strapac said these B units didn't have cabs. Cab radio'sand other amenities have been removed. This was a move to avoid the expense of FRA mandated chemical-retention toilets on locomotives at that time. Along with the GP35's being downgraded to B units, 8 of the highest numbered GP30's as well as 15 of the lowest numbered GP40's were also made "B" units. As an aside, some of the B unit GP40's were restored to leading status in the late 1980's.

Everyone has their own reasons for what they want, but for modeling Rio Grande, the GP30's still were on the point of many trains. In fact I read in an article that more care was taken when EMD built them vs. the GP35 cabs. The GP30 doors sealed better and the cab environment was preferred over some others by engineers.

I would like to have both GP30's and GP35's in a high fidelity modern tooled model, but the GP35's if modeling following the prototype after 1972 the GP35's were B units only so would mixed in the power consists, trailing. The good thing is, whoever produced one will have the chassis for the other.

[mdvle]

Aug 29, 2020 6:58:01 GMT -8 markfj said:

“Multi 6-figures” in tooling cost for a loco…dang, you could buy a nice house with that kind of money! 

Sort of depends on where you live. In some places that sort of money might get you a 600 square foot condo if your lucky.

Or consider how much they have therefore spent so far on tooling for the entire product line...

Aug 29, 2020 6:58:01 GMT -8 markfj said:

Any hints about a steam offering?

Someone could listen to it again, but my recollection (and I think this was a repeat from the previous ScaleTrains Q&A in terms of info) was that a research package had been sent to China back in December(?) for their first steam loco.

So (personal guess) maybe an announcement next year if things proceed to a plan - though they did say that a typical project takes around 3 years from starting to getting it to customers.

Personally I hope that they (and perhaps Athearn as they have also indicated that some new steam might be in the far pipeline) do get into some quality steam models.  The steam and transition era have a lot to offer a modeler, particularly one constrained by space, with a lot of industries typically packed into a smaller space and shorter trains/freight cars.

[lars]

The (DC generator?) electrical system was at its max with the 35, which required a bunch of transition steps. All those steps meant relays that failed.

I don’t know if real world success means much to the modeler, though. SD45s weren’t trouble free and a pile of those models have sold over the years. And them there’s U-boats, PAs and big Centuries.

[edwardsutorik]

The BN retired and mostly rebuilt their GP30's and GP35's around 1988. So they were roughly equally successful.

There were 40% more GP35's sold to 33% more railroads.

I LIKE the GP30 more, because of its unique styling. But I NEED the GP35 more, because there were more of them, and the Kato isn't that good. And Kato doesn't want to make it better. While not bustin' a gut on the matter, Walthers has even improved the very nice P2K, a little.


Ed

[lvrr325]

IIRC the relays were early with mechanical parts, which could get dirty and also cause problems.

They still lasted into the mid-90s on Conrail, in and out of storage by that point, but I caught a couple in service. Outlasted most of the SD45s, in fact, by a good 10 years. Only the -2s were left.

[riogrande]

Hopefully both GP30 and GP35 will be done in a high fidelity model.

I seem to be seeing far more requests for the GP30 than the 35 but it may not be reflective of the demand.

[mdvle]

Further to the carbon black cars, it was stated that around 7 years ago they were the constant talk of many online forums with the (perhaps implied) implication that many people wanted to buy them yet they sold poorly.

That said at some point I am sure the GP30/35 will get done - after they are all finished duplicating each other on the current stuff they will need to start chasing some of the other stuff if they are going to continue tooling new items.

[fr8kar]

Out the 12 carbon black cars I have nine are ScaleTrains, one is Rail Shop and two are Atlas with those three being major kitbashes. These are an important car to me, but I'm one modeler.

One problem with the carbon black cars is the prototype Thrall cars changed a lot until they finally settled on the last two designs, the 1977 model with the two "missing" ribs on the sides and the 1979 model with ribs more or less evenly spaced. Those two were popular designs so it's good ScaleTrains chose to model them, but there were many other designs that came before in the same basic shape but with different rib patterns and different roof patterns. You can't put one of those paint schemes on the later cars and still call the line Rivet Counter.

Then there's the 4727 version that looks nearly identical to the 5750 that ScaleTrains did. It would take some work, but you could convert one of the cars to match. I don't know how easy it would be to modify the tooling, and it certainly isn't a viable project if the 5750s didn't sell anyway. Their late 4727 is too new for my modeling, but I did backdate one of the ScaleTrains models to the 1974 version. Not an easy project but less work than a scratchbuild.

[thunderhawk]

Out of curiosity how many carbon black cars are out there? And do they run in pretty limited lanes? I ask as I don't recall ever seeing one in person. And that includes spending plenty of time in places like Clearing in Chicago which all of the big roads go in and out of. Black covered hoppers would kinda stand out of a crowd.

The internet can make a small group of supporters seem much larger than it really is when it comes to demand for a product.

[fr8kar]

Aug 29, 2020 19:11:08 GMT -8 thunderhawk said:

Out of curiosity how many carbon black cars are out there? And do they run in pretty limited lanes? I ask as I don't recall ever seeing one in person. And that includes spending plenty of time in places like Clearing in Chicago which all of the big roads go in and out of. Black covered hoppers would kinda stand out of a crowd.

The internet can make a small group of supporters seem much larger than it really is when it comes to demand for a product.

That's a really good question. According to Eric Neubauer's book Carbon Black Cars, which was published in 1990, "over 4200 have been built, including some for fumed silica." I'm certain many more than that have been built by now, although a recent wave of new carbon black cars from Trinity simply replaced cars that aged out.

They're typically used in the manufacture of tires as well as ink, so if your area has a tire plant you're likely to see them. I believe the majority of carbon black is produced in Texas and Louisiana, so you'll definitely see carbon black cars in those states. It's not uncommon for us to handle cuts of ten or twelve carbon black cars at a time, though you're more likely to see them in groups of three or four here in Fort Worth unless they're in a train coming from the west. Get closer to Midland or Amarillo, Texas and the car count will go up.

I've only ever seen a handful of people kitbash or scratchbuild carbon black cars. The late Wade Griffis was a prolific modeler of these cars and offered several decal sets for them. I've used a few of his sets for my kitbashed models. But other than Wade I can only think of fewer than half a dozen people who actually built models of these cars. Did I want some of these cars and did I make that known here? Of course, but I drew them up and was ready to print them myself. I put the brakes on that expensive project when I learned ScaleTrains would be selling a better model than I could print for less than a fourth of what I'd spend on one.

At this point it would be hard for me to justify buying many more of them. They don't move in unit trains and I'm not modeling a carbon black plant or a tire plant so I have no reason to model a place where they congregate. I wish those models had been more successful for ScaleTrains because they're similar to other cars that are common enough in trains to notice but nondescript enough to fly under the radar. The Pullman Standard 5820 and successor Trinity 5250 four bay pellet hopper comes to mind. I can't go a day without seeing at least one, but they're nowhere near as common as the comparable ACF 5701 and 5800 pellet hoppers. I think this is a car that begs to be made, but who can really make the case for one person buying 20 or 30 of them?

[ncrc5315]

The Goodyear hose plant at Norfolk NE would get in Carbon Black cars. I remember seeing them in some of the trains on the rare occasion I had to switch the yard.

[markfj]

No push from anyone for a boxcar in rivet counter or operator? With just the double-plug door in the kit classic line, I guess it’s a safe bet that is where we’ll see another boxcar. That's fine, but I think a boxcar would be good addition in the other lines too.

Thanks, Mark

[edwardsutorik]

As far as I know, no carbon black cars ran in the PNW. But double-door 50' boxes sure did. And all-door boxes, for that matter.



Ed