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Post by stevewagner on Aug 30, 2020 7:33:05 GMT -8
I have most definitely seen carbon black cars on my visits to former Delaware & Hudson lines in upstate New York in recent decades. I doubt that any I've seen have had billboard lettering.
Ohio traditionally has had quite a few tire factories, and not just in Akron. So carbon black cars would be quite common at the ones still operating.
Model Railroader had an article in the 1950's on modeling an earlier type dating back at least to the 1930's. I believe Red Ball made at least one kit for the same type. My roster lists three kits for older cars that I haven't yet assembled. Two are resin kits made by Funaro & Camerlengo for that type, with billboard decals for Cabot's Spheron, one done for the NEB&W line sold by the club at Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute and the other sold by F&C. The other one is a styrene kit by Rail Line that I think represents a somewhat newer car with less conspicuous Cabot. I bought them largely because of the connection of that supplier of carbon black with the Massachusetts family famous in history.
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Post by nebrzephyr on Aug 30, 2020 7:56:37 GMT -8
The Goodyear hose plant at Norfolk NE would get in Carbon Black cars. I remember seeing them in some of the trains on ....the rare occasion I had to switch the yard. ......also the plant in Lincoln, NE. Bob |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Aug 30, 2020 8:35:22 GMT -8
There was an Armstrong Tire plant in West Haven, Conn. from the 1930's 'til the early 1960's (at least). I just saw a pic on Facebook the other day showing a pair of original carbon black covered hoppers at this plant along with a half dozen wood boxcars and Ford Model A's in the parking lot.
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Post by stevewagner on Aug 30, 2020 16:35:31 GMT -8
Come to think of it, Hood Rubber Company in Watertown, Massachusetts was making tires before World War I. It was one of the town's largest industries and employed many immigrants, notably from Armenia. How long it continued making tires I'm not sure. Rubber soles for shoes, including sneakers, became its major product before B.F. Goodrich bought it in 1929 and moved its own shoemaking there. If tires were still being made in Watertown their production may have shifted to Akron, Ohio. Whether carbon black was also used in making rubber sneaker soles or overshoes I'm not sure. Hood's factory apparently closed in 1969, shortly after I moved to Massachusetts to earn a Master of Arts in Teaching at Harvard.
In connection with rubber shoes, there's a great true story about the late U.S. Senator Claiborne Pell of Rhode Island. For people who like railroads who don't remember him, his influence in the relevant Senate subcommittee was partly responsible for most of Amtrak's passenger service between Boston and New York City continuing to be routed on the ex-New Haven Shore Line through Providence and New London rather than through Worcester over the ex-Boston & Albany and then south from Springfield through Hartford to New Haven, which would have served a larger population. One time when he was in a parade his home state in rainy weather, he asked an aide to go get him some rubbers. Once the man realized he meant overshoes, he quickly bought them. The Senator asked him, "Where did you get them?" The answer: "Thom McAn." Pell said, "Please thank Tom for me." (Pell was, to put it mildly, from a privileged background and had probably never noticed, much less shopped in, a Thom McAn store. Nevertheless, he helped make college educations more affordable for a lot of people.)
Probably the biggest single industry in Watertown at least through World War I was the Watertown Arsenal. Watertown was served by the Boston & Maine's Bemis branch, south of the Fitchburg Route, connecting with that main line at switches just east of the West Cambridge yard (and a major highway bridge) and next to the interlocking tower near the main passenger depot in Waltham. The portion through Watertown's downtown section had been abandoned before 1968. The western portion continued for years to serve some customers in the southern part of Waltham, notably a rather large frozen food warehouse and a lumberyard. The eastern part was then still at least bringing loaded boxcars to a brickyard with an unloading platform next to Arsenal Street in Watertown. The small plant that produced Underwood Deviled Ham was also on that part of the trackage but I'm not sure whether it was then still using railroad freight service. The last customer on the branch to receive shipments by rail was Newlywed Foods, on the street just west of the former Western Electric telephone factory on Mt. Auburn street near Coolidge Square in the eastern part of Watertown. That bakery produced mostly breadcrumbs, probably into the 1990's or perhaps even later, received flour by rail. My late friend Charles Ricci, a structural engineer, designed two kinds of unloading facilities when that plant modernized, one for Airslide covered hoppers and the other for pressure-differential cars. Guilford didn't properly maintain the track, which became impassible, and the line was ultimately abandoned.
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Post by sd80mac on Aug 31, 2020 5:37:40 GMT -8
Real world success definitely does have some sort of bearing on the success of a scale version of said prototype, maybe not a ton, but some. I would point to the rather lack-luster sales (and overall selection) of any pre-Dash 8 GE model when compared to their EMD counterparts. It's no surprise that Walthers for example would rather re-run GP30s and GP35s than U30Bs. Or why we have 5 different GP38-2s available in HO scale, but only 2 B23-7s. Scaletrains has even said the sales of the C39-8 were low, and it would not surprise me if that has some bearing on whether or not they eventually decide to do the "definitive C30-7" that some people are constantly calling for. Granted, out of any older GE model, the C30-7 would probably be the best seller.
Another thing to take into consideration is what is still around. The number of people that remember GP30s, U25Bs, C30-7s etc in actual service is not growing. Compare that to the multitude of SD40-2s, GP38s, SD70s, Dash 9s, ES44s etc still running around North America, and its easy to see why those models get produced in the numbers that they do. I would say that as a general rule of thumb, people like to model what they see. As more people come into the hobby, they will see what is still being used by North American railroads if they decide to go trackside. There are exceptions, of course.
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Post by PennCentral on Aug 31, 2020 5:59:04 GMT -8
I live 2 miles from Norfolk Southern's East Wayne Yard outside of Fort Wayne. I see carbon black cars nearly every time I drive through the yard (5-10 times a week). Near Woodburn, Indiana (within site of the Ohio line), BF Goodrich has a large tire plant that receives multiple carbon black cars each time the local runs. I don't know the frequency but if that local isn't daily, it's pretty close.
South of Fort Wayne a couple of counties on the Newcastle District, there is a customer that receives carbon black cars. I believe they make rubber gaskets and hoses and such. Findlay Ohio also seems to be a bit of a hotspot for carbon black cars. One or more customers are visible along I-75 on the southwest side of Findlay.
I also see a lot of ACF built carbon black hoppers. They look like 4650's with conical outlets instead of the traditional sliding gate type outlet. While I obviously can't speak for all areas of the country, carbon black cars are indeed common here in northeast Indiana.
Jason C
Indiana
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Post by riogrande on Aug 31, 2020 6:02:01 GMT -8
Further to the carbon black cars, it was stated that around 7 years ago they were the constant talk of many online forums with the (perhaps implied) implication that many people wanted to buy them yet they sold poorly. I can't take credit for asking online for a Carbon Black hopper and interstingly, the only ones I might be interested are pretty much sold out. Go figure. It seems to be the later versions that don't sell as well. |
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Post by thunderhawk on Aug 31, 2020 7:08:16 GMT -8
Real world success definitely does have some sort of bearing on the success of a scale version of said prototype, maybe not a ton, but some. I would point to the rather lack-luster sales (and overall selection) of any pre-Dash 8 GE model when compared to their EMD counterparts. It's no surprise that Walthers for example would rather re-run GP30s and GP35s than U30Bs. Or why we have 5 different GP38-2s available in HO scale, but only 2 B23-7s. Scaletrains has even said the sales of the C39-8 were low, and it would not surprise me if that has some bearing on whether or not they eventually decide to do the "definitive C30-7" that some people are constantly calling for. Granted, out of any older GE model, the C30-7 would probably be the best seller. I've never followed Dash 7's much but I would guess it would sell much better than a Dash 8. UP and BN had hoards of them in the 70 to 90's iirc. Both roads sell well and apparently better than the eastern roads as discussed here before. |
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Post by mdvle on Aug 31, 2020 7:21:36 GMT -8
Real world success definitely does have some sort of bearing on the success of a scale version of said prototype, maybe not a ton, but some. I would point to the rather lack-luster sales (and overall selection) of any pre-Dash 8 GE model when compared to their EMD counterparts. It's no surprise that Walthers for example would rather re-run GP30s and GP35s than U30Bs. Or why we have 5 different GP38-2s available in HO scale, but only 2 B23-7s. Scaletrains has even said the sales of the C39-8 were low, and it would not surprise me if that has some bearing on whether or not they eventually decide to do the "definitive C30-7" that some people are constantly calling for. Granted, out of any older GE model, the C30-7 would probably be the best seller.
I wonder if we will start to see a subtle move to having 2 segments to the Genesis/Rivet Counter type lines
1) lots of roadname and sometimes roadnumber specific details for models that sell really well (the current GE models, EMD in the past like the SD40-2)
2) still highly detailed but more compromises on roadname specific features for models that don't/won't sell as well, items like the older GE product line or the current MPI or Progress Rail/EMD items, where the sales won't justify the cost of the extra tooling.
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Post by gevohogger on Aug 31, 2020 7:40:02 GMT -8
Can someone explain to me why we need a new GP30 more than a GP35? Ed So from a RR point of view, they were not very successful. In the case of the D&RGW, the entire class of 22, purchased in 1964 were down graded after only 8 years in 1972 to B unit status. "Officially", Strapac said these B units didn't have cabs. Cab radio'sand other amenities have been removed. This was a move to avoid the expense of FRA mandated chemical-retention toilets on locomotives at that time. .....but the GP35's if modeling following the prototype after 1972 the GP35's were B units only so would mixed in the power consists, trailing. But how long did they stay as B units? Not long, I'd wager. They remained in service well into the SP era; early 1990s for sure, and the internets are full of photos of them leading trains in that era. |
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Post by sd80mac on Aug 31, 2020 7:54:13 GMT -8
Real world success definitely does have some sort of bearing on the success of a scale version of said prototype, maybe not a ton, but some. I would point to the rather lack-luster sales (and overall selection) of any pre-Dash 8 GE model when compared to their EMD counterparts. It's no surprise that Walthers for example would rather re-run GP30s and GP35s than U30Bs. Or why we have 5 different GP38-2s available in HO scale, but only 2 B23-7s. Scaletrains has even said the sales of the C39-8 were low, and it would not surprise me if that has some bearing on whether or not they eventually decide to do the "definitive C30-7" that some people are constantly calling for. Granted, out of any older GE model, the C30-7 would probably be the best seller. I've never followed Dash 7's much but I would guess it would sell much better than a Dash 8. UP and BN had hoards of them in the 70 to 90's iirc. Both roads sell well and apparently better than the eastern roads as discussed here before. Even still, those "hoards" pale in comparison to their EMD brethren. While UP and BN had 140 and 242 C30-7s, respectively, they had 686 and 835 (!) SD40-2s. And while BN did not roster any Dash 8s other than the 3 B32-8 demos and the 100 leased LMX B39-8Es, UP had 539 Dash 8 variants at one point. |
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Post by riogrande on Aug 31, 2020 8:25:04 GMT -8
But how long did they stay as B units? Not long, I'd wager. They remained in service well into the SP era; early 1990s for sure, and the internets are full of photos of them leading trains in that era. I guess it depends on what your definition of "not-long" is. It seems if the GP35 life span (rather long on the D&RGW) was roughly 30 years, they were delivered in 1964, demoted in 1972 and some/many promoted back say in 1992ish. That means they were probalby B units for about 20 of their ~30 year lifespan; possibly a little less than 20/30 years. That seem long to me. I used to read the monthly D&RGW column in Pacific Rail New and recall in the mid-1980's it being reported that the GP35's had been sidelined (by then they had been reported to be among the first to be stored when there was a downturn in traffic, and the last to be re-activated when there was an upturn in traffic. In one report they were being re-eveluated for restoring to service (might have been around 1986) and that they had been found to be difficult to get running. They probably continued to be stored "servicable" until the merger with SP/SSW in 1988. At some point later, when the SP was experiencing a lot of road failures (from what I read in early 90's magazines), the D&RGW GP35's were probably reactivated and restored to lead status. I can check on the io.groups for more detail. I also have Rio Grande Diesels: Vol 3 at home which discusses the final years and the disposition of the diesesl as of that publication. So not only were the D&RGW GP35's demoted to B unit status, by the time they were nearing 20 years of age, they were the first to be deactivated and the last to be brought back online and were mostly stored. It appeas to be after the merger with the SP that their fortunes were reversed due to the sheer number of failures on the SP roster reported in the early 1990's. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 31, 2020 9:03:26 GMT -8
And yet BNSF received 78 GP30's and 150 GP35's from Santa Fe. BNSF still had 77 of the former and 148 of the latter on the roster ten years after the merger.
BN contributed no GP30's or GP35's. They rebuilt some, though: 30 of 55 GP30's, and 42 of 79 GP35's. That's 55% and 53% respectively. And those went to BNSF.
For some reason, I'm not seeing GP35's being a particular problem for ATSF or BN.
Ed
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Post by riogrande on Aug 31, 2020 9:14:48 GMT -8
It's up to some of you to convice one of the companies to do the GP35 first. Mostly I'm seeing calls for the GP30.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 31, 2020 11:12:46 GMT -8
No hurry. I've got 2541 projects I can work on while I wait.
One thing I WON'T be doing is fixin' up my two Kato BN GP35's. Wasted effort, I think.
Ed
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Post by lars on Aug 31, 2020 13:51:15 GMT -8
And yet BNSF received 78 GP30's and 150 GP35's from Santa Fe. BNSF still had 77 of the former and 148 of the latter on the roster ten years after the merger. BN contributed no GP30's or GP35's. They rebuilt some, though: 30 of 55 GP30's, and 42 of 79 GP35's. That's 55% and 53% respectively. And those went to BNSF. For some reason, I'm not seeing GP35's being a particular problem for ATSF or BN. Ed I’m not the western railroad expert here (most of this info is what I recall from train orders over the years), but I thought ATSF upgraded the electrical cabinet on the 35s, and possibly the traction motors. The verdict is out on engine upgrades, but it’s possible that some or all of the 35s received 645 power assemblies as well. |
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Post by grabirons on Aug 31, 2020 14:30:09 GMT -8
I've been asking them for years to bring their couplers out as a separate item. They need to be made kadee compatible so they fit in most coupler boxes. The current ST couplers are of a thinner design and don't fit in most coupler boxes without some shimming put in place ( coupler droop). I would like to see these offered sooner than later in black and the rust colored versions. Keep it simple and offer only two versions in both colors, short and medium shanks. Consider doing more kit classic runs than just once a year or even less. Bring out more runs of those killer tank cars, the operator lines are a great line and i hope they offer more cars in that line soon. I think the carbon black car not being offered as a operator model might of had something to do with sales. Sorry but i can add those ladders myself if needed.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Aug 31, 2020 15:05:21 GMT -8
I've been asking them for years to bring their couplers out as a separate item. They need to be made kadee compatible so they fit in most coupler boxes. The current ST couplers are of a thinner design and don't fit in most coupler boxes without some shimming put in place ( coupler droop). I would like to see these offered sooner than later in black and the rust colored versions. Keep it simple and offer only two versions in both colors, short and medium shanks. Consider doing more kit classic runs than just once a year or even less. Bring out more runs of those killer tank cars, the operator lines are a great line and i hope they offer more cars in that line soon. I think the carbon black car not being offered as a operator model might of had something to do with sales. Sorry but i can add those ladders myself if needed. If manufacturers are too cheap to put legit Kadees on their products, the least they can do is make them Kadee-compatible. The only possible exception is someone doing models with scale (i.e. Sergent) couplers. Everything else is unacceptable. For a variety of reasons. |
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Post by peoriaman on Aug 31, 2020 15:18:52 GMT -8
It's up to some of you to convice one of the companies to do the GP35 first. Mostly I'm seeing calls for the GP30. Either we need a GP35, or we don't. Depends on the railroad(s) we model. Bad experiences with the GP35 on one railroad (D&RGW) isn't going to sway anyone else here. |
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Post by ncrc5315 on Aug 31, 2020 15:49:13 GMT -8
I would like to see a GP35, as the KYLE had at least one, however, I'm not holding my breath on KYLE GP35 from a manufacturer.
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Aug 31, 2020 15:55:47 GMT -8
It would be neat to see - I recall KYLE had at least four GP35s. Would like to see the GP35 and a KYLE SD39, but it would probably be an Athearn and not Scale Trains. Would remind me of what I saw when I first started to railfan. I would like to see a GP35, as the KYLE had at least one, however, I'm not holding my breath on KYLE GP35 from a manufacturer. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Aug 31, 2020 15:56:22 GMT -8
It's up to some of you to convice one of the companies to do the GP35 first. Mostly I'm seeing calls for the GP30. Either we need a GP35, or we don't. Depends on the railroad(s) we model. Bad experiences with the GP35 on one railroad (D&RGW) isn't going to sway anyone else here. We had a lot of GP35's on eastern roads, and TBQH, between the Kato and recent Proto offerings, it's pretty well covered. At least for those who can wield an airbrush and do some minor mods. There are MANY locos which remain unproduced in plastic. I look at some of the recent offerings by many manufacturers doing and redoing existing models. If it ain't something nobody else did before, it better be darn good. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 31, 2020 15:57:34 GMT -8
...but it’s possible that some or all of the 35s received 645 power assemblies as well. Looks like ATSF "remanufactured" its GP30's and GP35's in the early '80's, without renaming them. But they both lasted. On February 20, 2011, BNSF still had 37 GP30's and 139GP35's. For us modelers, haveing GP30's and GP35 that lasted that long is pretty neat and interesting. Even more, there's STILL the BN rebuilds running around right now. I would be THRILLED if Athearn were to do a Genesis GP30 or 35, and make those BN rebuilds. Ed |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Aug 31, 2020 16:29:48 GMT -8
I've been asking them for years to bring their couplers out as a separate item. They need to be made kadee compatible so they fit in most coupler boxes. The current ST couplers are of a thinner design and don't fit in most coupler boxes without some shimming put in place ( coupler droop). I would like to see these offered sooner than later in black and the rust colored versions. Keep it simple and offer only two versions in both colors, short and medium shanks. Consider doing more kit classic runs than just once a year or even less. Bring out more runs of those killer tank cars, the operator lines are a great line and i hope they offer more cars in that line soon. I think the carbon black car not being offered as a operator model might of had something to do with sales. Sorry but i can add those ladders myself if needed. If manufacturers are too cheap to put legit Kadees on their products, the least they can do is make them Kadee-compatible. The only possible exception is someone doing models with scale (i.e. Sergent) couplers. Everything else is unacceptable. For a variety of reasons.
I don't believe ScaleTrains is being "cheap" at all. I belive that ScaleTrains is moving in a direction that Kadee isn't, and thus the Kadee coupler doesn't fit ScaleTrains' needs.
Personally, I think scale draft gear is long overdue on model railroad equipment. Athearn was way ahead of its time when it introduce the Genesis Trinity 5161cf hopper more than 15 years ago. However, due to the lack of forward thought on the part of many modelers, they were largely unaccepted, even though Kadee brought out the scale draft #78 coupler as a more-than-capable replacement.
Donnell |
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Post by mdvle on Aug 31, 2020 16:56:13 GMT -8
Bring out more runs of those killer tank cars, the operator lines are a great line and i hope they offer more cars in that line soon. I think the carbon black car not being offered as a operator model might of had something to do with sales. Sorry but i can add those ladders myself if needed.
ScaleTrains didn't say if the ratio differed between freight cars and locos, but with Operator models only making up 15% of sales the lack of Operator carbon black cars isn't to blame.
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Post by ncrc5315 on Aug 31, 2020 17:16:24 GMT -8
It would be neat to see - I recall KYLE had at least four GP35s. Would like to see the GP35 and a KYLE SD39, but it would probably be an Athearn and not Scale Trains. Would remind me of what I saw when I first started to railfan. I would like to see a GP35, as the KYLE had at least one, however, I'm not holding my breath on KYLE GP35 from a manufacturer. I remember the SD39 as well. When I went to work for them, it was to run coal trains between Lincoln, and Nebraska City. After the coal contract was up, and I started working in Kansas, the only thing left of the KYLE fleet, was the Pburg switch engine. I know one of the GP35's went to a grain elevator, but I can't remember, if it was at Glen Elder, or Cawker City, or even if it is still there. It was a sad day, when we heard the Uboats had been sent to Norton to the scrap yard. I had the chance to ride in one of the U30C's, but never got the opportunity to run one, mistake on my part. The Mid States Port Authority, purchased maybe a half a dozen GE Dash 7 locomotives, just prior to Rail America purchasing the KYLE. Rail America wouldn't even consider using them, and they were sold. |
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Aug 31, 2020 18:38:56 GMT -8
Donnell,
The problem with the Athearn Trinity covered hoppers wasn't that they used scale draft gear, it's that they used plastic Accu-mate split-knuckle scale couplers in the scale draft gear. I, and others, find split-knuckle couplers of any design to be poor at best. They don't couple as well as a rotating knuckle and they barely uncouple at all. The Accu-mate scale couplers have all the disadvantages of their split-knuckle design with the added problem of being weaker and more prone to damage than a metal version. The only benefit is that it is molded in rusty brown and scale sized.
At the time the Trinity came out, there was no Kadee replacement for the Accu-mate scale coupler or coupler box (although the #78 was on the market in Sept. '02). This annoyed people that wanted the reliability and strength of a Kadee but were unable to convert the Trinity. As a result, the later runs of the Trinity were done with wider Kadee compatible coupler boxes.
It wasn't the lack of forethought by modelers about scale draft gear in 2002 when the Trinity came out, it was the lack of a quality coupler in it. If it had been a scale draft gear with a Kadee coupler from the factory it would have been accepted by the hobby the first time.
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Post by lars on Aug 31, 2020 19:02:10 GMT -8
There are MANY locos which remain unproduced in plastic. I took a look recently and there’s really not that much left in terms US as built freight units. Were missing some Alco switchers, EMD oddball switchers, a couple FM units and a few Baldwin’s. Probably we’re most lacking in GE U boats, Dash 7s and early dash 8s. Now if you add phases and rebuilds that number will get a lot higher. I’m don’t follow passenger rail much, but I know there are some key locomotives missing there. Some that are left are limited to virtually one road name and some are really low production units. There may be a few surprises here and there, but don’t hold your breath for that H16-66 or DS-4-4-660. |
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Post by mdvle on Sept 1, 2020 6:00:19 GMT -8
There are MANY locos which remain unproduced in plastic. I took a look recently and there’s really not that much left in terms US as built freight units. Were missing some Alco switchers, EMD oddball switchers, a couple FM units and a few Baldwin’s. Probably we’re most lacking in GE U boats, Dash 7s and early dash 8s. Now if you add phases and rebuilds that number will get a lot higher.
A lot depends on what you want.
If you are happy with any model that has been made - either because you are happy to / enjoy detailing it or just don't worry about details - then you are probably right.
But for those of us who want detailed, accurate models there are still many notable gaps - the GP30/35 discussion for a start.
As for the oddballs you mention, getting those will likely mean the people wanting them accepting a different method of production than the current mass market version where the economics / risk change.
(and of course that is only diesels, steam is a wide open field sadly)
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Post by brammy on Sept 1, 2020 7:04:25 GMT -8
The hard part is, once the run is out of production long enough for stores to clear through inventory, your only option is really eBay. I am not sure when Athearn last ran the EL Gp35s or the Erie/EL Gp7s, but they are harder to find now. Modern stuff you can get a lot of, but the 60s and 70s can still be a black hole.
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