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Post by TBird1958 on Sept 1, 2020 7:51:40 GMT -8
I think Walthers still has the advantage with the GP30, the die work is very good (not perfect), they've quietly upgraded the fans and the entire drive train as new releases have come out, the handrails are very well well done, being nicely scaled, straight and durable (easily better than the ones one my ST SD40T-2's) with little effort they could re-issue this model with any road specific details due to it's well thought out modular shell. I have a four engine set of '30s that I finished with milled Kato chassis more than two years ago, the lead units have working Mars lights and they run fantastic, life's too short to not build the models I want when all the parts to do it are there. Were Scale Trains to produce a GP30 I would, no doubt buy some, but I won't be getting rid of the ones I have. Pretty much the same goes for my '35s, I have upgraded Kato units that run great with other similar power, emulating D&RGW practice mine are all B units and I like that about them, they're the perfect "bit players' to add to consist, no need for anything complex of the DCC side of things, they run nicely with my upgraded Atlas GP40s and Genesis '40-2s. I do think early GE's like the U25B and the later C30-7 are good candidates but it's sometimes hard to figure, Rivarossi's '25C's were spectacular models and where did they end up? Some GP30 love.  |
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Post by riogrande on Sept 1, 2020 7:58:37 GMT -8
Love it! If Walthers would offer theirs with to RG nose light and plow, I'd be good with that. But hard to say if they ever will.
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Post by TBird1958 on Sept 1, 2020 8:02:28 GMT -8
It's a separate part so it's certainly possible, but it's not hard to add one either, the ones above are factory painted and I added them - it's about 30 minutes of work and sometimes a few small bits of decal.
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Post by riogrande on Sept 1, 2020 8:16:13 GMT -8
IIRC you have to file the area where the nose light is flat. I wasn't sure if the spot where the molded in light is too low or not. But really I'm after the whole ball of wax since the alternative is buy a GP35 for the chassis, mill the frame etc. Yours looks fantastic but the layout is getting what little hobby time I have for quite some time.
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Post by lars on Sept 1, 2020 10:04:12 GMT -8
I took a look recently and there’s really not that much left in terms US as built freight units. Were missing some Alco switchers, EMD oddball switchers, a couple FM units and a few Baldwin’s. Probably we’re most lacking in GE U boats, Dash 7s and early dash 8s. Now if you add phases and rebuilds that number will get a lot higher.
A lot depends on what you want.
If you are happy with any model that has been made - either because you are happy to / enjoy detailing it or just don't worry about details - then you are probably right.
But for those of us who want detailed, accurate models there are still many notable gaps - the GP30/35 discussion for a start.
As for the oddballs you mention, getting those will likely mean the people wanting them accepting a different method of production than the current mass market version where the economics / risk change.
(and of course that is only diesels, steam is a wide open field sadly)
I agree that there still is an ongoing list of things that need to be updated, but I don't know if there's an overwhelming list of things that HO modelers want that can feasibly be mass produced. Some comments on the relatively slow sales of the PRR SD45 and the rising popularity of the 1970s+ timeframe may suggest that there's less hope for things like PRR passenger sharks, which might have been a candidate a few years ago, but may be too much of a risk now. If anything, I think this is one of the reasons why we see so many re-hashes of a prototype and not much in terms of new items. There might not be much left in the pool of things to do. |
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Post by mdvle on Sept 1, 2020 10:48:00 GMT -8
Planning things for Springfield next year is a real gamble. I'd say the odds are like 50-50 at best if the show even happens. I'm already seeing shows cancelled into December, every large show I set up at isn't happening (Hamburg, Syracuse, Albany GTE) and a couple of small ones gave up already too. I live in MA, and I don't see Springfield happening. The Hub show in December was cancelled. I also expect the Mass Governor's limitation in indoor gatherings to persist into January. I also heard from a dealer that if it happens, the show will only be in two buildings, with double-width hallways. I made the decision even if by some chance the show happens, rather than go I will visit my favorite local store and spend money there. Ah, the danger of rumors that are made up information.
From the people organizing the show they will be renting the exact same amount of space as last year, though use the space from exhibitors who don't attend to spread things out.
And as of today (September 1st), based on a meeting yesterday with the facility, they are still planning to go ahead
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Post by gevohogger on Sept 1, 2020 11:10:52 GMT -8
Some comments on the relatively slow sales of the PRR SD45... PRR is and always has been a hugely popular road but I think those that model the era of the SD45 are probably a tiny minority amongst the vast numbers of people who prefer the Pennsylvania of GG1s, K-4s, and E-units. |
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Post by riogrande on Sept 1, 2020 11:14:29 GMT -8
And as of today (September 1st), based on a meeting yesterday with the facility, they are still planning to go ahead Stay tuned. The Timonium show was kept on the calendar until around mid-August IIRC, which was about 2 1/2 months out from the scheduled date. If things don't improve much, I would guess we will hear if the Springfield show is cancelled probably by end of November. Just a guess on my part - I don't want to add to the danger of rumors that are made up information  |
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Post by brammy on Sept 1, 2020 11:44:28 GMT -8
Ah, the danger of rumors that are made up information.
From the people organizing the show they will be renting the exact same amount of space as last year, though use the space from exhibitors who don't attend to spread things out.
And as of today (September 1st), based on a meeting yesterday with the facility, they are still planning to go ahead
Well, the source can both be valid and wrong, or true when telling it. I do however stand by my belief that the show happening is wishful thinking at best. Now, the gotcha is which exhibitors bow out, and are they some of the big daw ones like Spring Creek, or the smaller ones? Mass still has limits on indoor gatherings. We have a 4-phase reopening plan, but phase 4 is pretty much based on a vaccine. The Governor paused phase 3a. That said, I'd do exactly what they are doing, and they are planning for -- and answering questions about -- if the show can't happen. |
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Post by fr8kar on Sept 1, 2020 13:14:40 GMT -8
There are MANY locos which remain unproduced in plastic. I took a look recently and there’s really not that much left in terms US as built freight units. Were missing some Alco switchers, EMD oddball switchers, a couple FM units and a few Baldwin’s. Probably we’re most lacking in GE U boats, Dash 7s and early dash 8s. Now if you add phases and rebuilds that number will get a lot higher. I’m don’t follow passenger rail much, but I know there are some key locomotives missing there. Some that are left are limited to virtually one road name and some are really low production units. There may be a few surprises here and there, but don’t hold your breath for that H16-66 or DS-4-4-660. I think the ScaleTrains C39-8 is probably the closest we're going to get to filling in the gaps in early GE Dash 8s. The production numbers of the remaining early/demonstrator units - C32-8, B32-8 and B39-8 - just don't support offering them in plastic RTR. Now, it may be possible to cut up a ScaleTrains C39-8 shell to build one of these other models, but until the shells can be had separately I'm not going to be the one to try it. The production B32-8s might be practical if they were part of an offering that included the production B39-8, but the tooling would need to be modular to accommodate the different frame and body length between the two models. I think kitbashing the Atlas B40-8 is probably the closest we'll get to these two models. But the C30-7s really need to be done. The Atlas model is a decent starting point and the drive is fine, but the cab needs to be replaced*, the handrails are very chunky and there are some sideframe options that aren't available. The radiator area could use some updating and there are variations in door latches that also need to be covered. The anticlimber needs to be added for BN versions at least. A new version of this model should be made to cover the C30-7A and C36-7 variants. Roadname and paint scheme coverage is pretty broad, too. I could easily be persuaded to pick up a three unit set of Santa Fe C30-7s with two yellowbonnets and one Kodachrome. * The newly tooled Atlas cab is fine for the U-boats but won't work for Dash 7s without replacing the numberboard/headlight assembly and adding the door reinforcing strip on the upper half of the doors. |
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Post by rails4dmv on Sept 1, 2020 14:57:44 GMT -8
I guarantee if Scaletrains announces a C30-7, BLI will announce another run of their model. Seems that's how these companies operate. MTH, Scaletrains & Athearn (Roundhouse) have released a Dash 9 model all within 3-4 years of each other. And who knows, Kato just might want to get in on the fun and announce another run of their Dash 9 model. So I think there is plenty of room for a updated Dash 8 from someone. Not counting the old Walthers Trainline model or the OMI brass model, right now, the Atlas Dash 8 is the only game in town if you want one and it sorely needs updating. I'm sure someone will figure out and announce the "definitive Dash 8".
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Post by lars on Sept 1, 2020 15:19:57 GMT -8
Could you easily get a C30-7A out of a C30/36-7 tooling or are there some other big differences aside from the long hood?
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Post by mdvle on Sept 1, 2020 15:59:29 GMT -8
I think one of the keys regarding the Dash-9 is that it really marked GE taking over from EMD as the dominant builder - one really can't model the last 30 years without a Dash-9/AC4400 or there successors - and with the rebuilds the Dash-9 and AC4400 will be around for a while yet. This means, much like the SD40-2 in the past, you need one in your product line to generate the sales to give you the cash flow to do the other things you would like to do.
The same can't be said for the C30-7 or the Dash 8 models.
Now, do I think those older GE's will get done? Yes, at some point after the various other more promising platforms have been staked by either Athearn or ScaleTrains (or alternately by Rapido).
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Post by bncascadegreen on Sept 3, 2020 0:56:52 GMT -8
A definitive Dash 8?! Definitely in! A C30-7 is a no brainer for me. Modeling BN without a C30-7 is sacrilegious for me ( also considering living next to BN my whole life seen Santa Fe, UP and NS C30-7s on BN/BNSF all the time) So is not having A B39-8E....still waiting for a quality SD60 as well.....And those are lessors so (?) so I’m milodeling BN without Oakway and LMX power....and honestly that sucks cause I looked into brass models that where available and I’m not about to pay the money some want for them and not painting....😂😭😆👍🏻 Lol
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Post by Donnell Wells on Sept 3, 2020 10:54:50 GMT -8
I personally still think there is a very practical application for modular-style diesel locomotive kits. For its time, Smokey Valley did a reasonable job with their GP15-1 tooling up a flat kit that was intended to be assembled by modelers. Despite all of the controversy, Christopher Howard of Railflyer Model Prototypes actually had a great ideas for model locomotive kit construction. His designs were fresh and innovative, and highly indicative of what modelers expect from manufactures today. Dave Hussey of Cannon and Company hinted at his concept of modular locomotive construction when he displayed laser-cut hood sides for an EMD GP39-2 back in 2013. They were designed to readily except various Cannon parts. Even as early as 2005, Jimmy Booth of Hi Tech Details released injection molded hood sides for an EMD SD39, again, to be used with Cannon parts. Ryan Harris has designed quite a few parts aimed at enhancing factory-produced models, many of them aimed at second generation GE locomotives. I don't see any reason why a flat-kit (think Ikea, heck, any model car, tank, or airplane kit, for that matter!) wouldn't work for building some of the locomotives that we want to see on our railroads.
Thoughts?
Donnell
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 3, 2020 11:14:37 GMT -8
A thought I have is that I would surely like a locomotive kit to be as much fun to build as the Gould/Tichy crane. EVERYTHING fit exactly where it's supposed to. No mistakes.
I guess I'm asking for a kit that is well-engineered, and a joy to build.
Ed
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Post by Baikal on Sept 3, 2020 11:23:52 GMT -8
I personally still think there is a very practical application for modular-style diesel locomotive kits.... I don't see any reason why a flat-kit (think Ikea, heck, any model car, tank, or airplane kit, for that matter!) wouldn't work for building some of the locomotives that we want to see on our railroads.
Thoughts?
Donnell
I remember having this conversation in 1974 like it was yesterday. Our group (included some who did military models) thought it was agood idea, but there's been little follow-thru.
The original Stewart RS-3 kit comes close. Resin "kits" are usually flat, but few loco models. I just bought a Russian 2TE10 resin kit, should arrive in a few weeks.
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Post by gevohogger on Sept 3, 2020 11:43:10 GMT -8
I personally still think there is a very practical application for modular-style diesel locomotive kits. For its time, Smokey Valley did a reasonable job with their GP15-1 tooling up a flat kit that was intended to be assembled by modelers. Despite all of the controversy, Christopher Howard of Railflyer Model Prototypes actually had a great ideas for model locomotive kit construction. His designs were fresh and innovative, and highly indicative of what modelers expect from manufactures today. Dave Hussey of Cannon and Company hinted at his concept of modular locomotive construction when he displayed laser-cut hood sides for an EMD GP39-2 back in 2013. They were designed to readily except various Cannon parts. Even as early as 2005, Jimmy Booth of Hi Tech Details released injection molded hood sides for an EMD SD39, again, to be used with Cannon parts. Ryan Harris has designed quite a few parts aimed at enhancing factory-produced models, many of them aimed at second generation GE locomotives. I don't see any reason why a flat-kit (think Ikea, heck, any model car, tank, or airplane kit, for that matter!) wouldn't work for building some of the locomotives that we want to see on our railroads.
Thoughts?
Donnell Sure, but will that fly with the other 99% of the modelling community who only wants to buy ready-to-run stuff? |
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Post by mdvle on Sept 3, 2020 13:22:46 GMT -8
I don't see any reason why a flat-kit (think Ikea, heck, any model car, tank, or airplane kit, for that matter!) wouldn't work for building some of the locomotives that we want to see on our railroads.
The fact that you can name 4 people/companies who attempted it and failed says it all.
Unlike the other model kit hobbies our hobby is for most not about building a model loco, but about building a railroad that we can operate.
This inherently changes the scale of what is required, and thus most in the hobby have been more than happy to pay a bit extra to get a fully done model so more time can be spent elsewhere on the layout or just running trains.
Yes, there is a small subset of the hobby who both enjoy making kits and have the skills to either finish the model to a standard that can be bought (and for some perhaps even finish better than the somewhat mass produced).
But for most of us achieving a paint and decal finish equivalent to what China produces is beyond our capabilities.
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Post by Baikal on Sept 3, 2020 13:32:53 GMT -8
I don't see any reason why a flat-kit (think Ikea, heck, any model car, tank, or airplane kit, for that matter!) wouldn't work for building some of the locomotives that we want to see on our railroads.
The fact that you can name 4 people/companies who attempted it and failed says it all.
Unlike the other model kit hobbies our hobby is for most not about building a model loco, but about building a railroad that we can operate.
This inherently changes the scale of what is required, and thus most in the hobby have been more than happy to pay a bit extra to get a fully done model so more time can be spent elsewhere on the layout or just running trains.
Yes, there is a small subset of the hobby who both enjoy making kits and have the skills to either finish the model to a standard that can be bought (and for some perhaps even finish better than the somewhat mass produced).
But for most of us achieving a paint and decal finish equivalent to what China produces is beyond our capabilities.
All true. |
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Post by riogrande on Sept 3, 2020 14:55:32 GMT -8
Unlike the other model kit hobbies our hobby is for most not about building a model loco, but about building a railroad that we can operate. In my case that is true, although some are content mostly building models. Different aspects of the hobby are right for different people. Definitely that is the case for me. I have limited time and modeling skills but would still like to model a RR, or a piece of it, in miniature. While some here have the uncanny and admirable ability to produce a finely finished model, some (myself) do not. |
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Post by fr8kar on Sept 3, 2020 19:18:09 GMT -8
I don't see any reason why a flat-kit (think Ikea, heck, any model car, tank, or airplane kit, for that matter!) wouldn't work for building some of the locomotives that we want to see on our railroads.
The fact that you can name 4 people/companies who attempted it and failed says it all.
Unlike the other model kit hobbies our hobby is for most not about building a model loco, but about building a railroad that we can operate. This inherently changes the scale of what is required, and thus most in the hobby have been more than happy to pay a bit extra to get a fully done model so more time can be spent elsewhere on the layout or just running trains. Yes, there is a small subset of the hobby who both enjoy making kits and have the skills to either finish the model to a standard that can be bought (and for some perhaps even finish better than the somewhat mass produced). But for most of us achieving a paint and decal finish equivalent to what China produces is beyond our capabilities. I'm not ready to call this one a failure just yet:  In fact, it was quite successful. I have several more designs to print in the future based on the success of this model. Now, the price is a little high and the print resolution could be better, but these are problems that will be solved over time. Will there be widespread adoption of flat locomotive kits in this hobby? I doubt it, but I made the model for myself not every HO scale modeler out there. But for modelers of the rare or unusual prototype, these flat kits are an effective way to get those much needed models the big guys will never touch.* * I fully expect Rapido will release both versions of the BN cabless boosters at some point since they have the Phase III drive for them. The Southern B30-7A1 though is a different animal entirely. |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Sept 3, 2020 20:34:53 GMT -8
Sure, but will that fly with the other 99% of the modelling community who only wants to buy ready-to-run stuff?
Donnell |
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Post by mdvle on Sept 4, 2020 4:39:15 GMT -8
Sure, but will that fly with the other 99% of the modelling community who only wants to buy ready-to-run stuff?
Donnell
Railflyer's downfall, like many, was insufficient cash / cashflow.
He was in the classic catch-22 where he didn't have the funding to tool up an entire locomotives worth of parts at once, but few were willing to buy the parts piece by piece over a long, long period of time.
And to a point if you can afford the costs to tool all the parts for a loco you may as well go the extra bit and simply have it made RTR in China, thus increasing your market.
Which brings us to the reality that a lot of these more niche products could still be made in China if the North American market simply was willing to accept the crowd funding model that is used so successfully both elsewhere in the world as well as outside of the model train hobby in North America.
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Post by mdvle on Sept 4, 2020 4:46:06 GMT -8
The fact that you can name 4 people/companies who attempted it and failed says it all.
I'm not ready to call this one a failure just yet: Will there be widespread adoption of flat locomotive kits in this hobby? I doubt it, but I made the model for myself not every HO scale modeler out there.
Well, I did say 4 and not 5.
3D printing, combined with people designing things for themselves (and thus "volunteer" labor not paid) does open up a lot of possibilities by eliminating the tooling and other costs associated with traditional models but still runs into the finishing problem (well, that and the at this point crazy prices at Shapeways - not just the future but the now is personal 3D printers).
Though a limiting factor will remain the availability of mechanisms unless the North American market gets more adventurous.
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 4, 2020 5:52:36 GMT -8
The fact that you can name 4 people/companies who attempted it and failed says it all.
Unlike the other model kit hobbies our hobby is for most not about building a model loco, but about building a railroad that we can operate. This inherently changes the scale of what is required, and thus most in the hobby have been more than happy to pay a bit extra to get a fully done model so more time can be spent elsewhere on the layout or just running trains. Yes, there is a small subset of the hobby who both enjoy making kits and have the skills to either finish the model to a standard that can be bought (and for some perhaps even finish better than the somewhat mass produced). But for most of us achieving a paint and decal finish equivalent to what China produces is beyond our capabilities. I'm not ready to call this one a failure just yet: In fact, it was quite successful. I have several more designs to print in the future based on the success of this model. Now, the price is a little high and the print resolution could be better, but these are problems that will be solved over time. Will there be widespread adoption of flat locomotive kits in this hobby? I doubt it, but I made the model for myself not every HO scale modeler out there. But for modelers of the rare or unusual prototype, these flat kits are an effective way to get those much needed models the big guys will never touch.* * I fully expect Rapido will release both versions of the BN cabless boosters at some point since they have the Phase III drive for them. The Southern B30-7A1 though is a different animal entirely. Looks very good. Only notable striations visible in this pic are on the roof, which being a GE and rounded makes things a little more difficult. Printing it upright, or at least at an angle, would remove most if not all of that. Of course printing it on end with Shapeways would likely be about $500... Is that a one off? I ask as I don't see all the parts for it on your Shapeways page and was curious what their cost would be. To the conversation; Why a flat kit? I've kicked around printing a hood section made to fit Cannon doors and other parts for those that prefer to use them. Hood sections print fine and are easier to use. Shapeways prices are immaterial. No manufacturer is going to use them. To give an idea I was quoted $1000 to have my 24x60 station kit printed by an outfit with a Carbon 3d machine. I print them myself and make a profit at $70. (Edit-$63 after the 10% discount I give newsletter subscribers.) |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Sept 4, 2020 7:32:17 GMT -8
Railflyer's downfall, like many, was insufficient cash / cashflow. He was in the classic catch-22 where he didn't have the funding to tool up an entire locomotives worth of parts at once, but few were willing to buy the parts piece by piece over a long, long period of time. And to a point if you can afford the costs to tool all the parts for a loco you may as well go the extra bit and simply have it made RTR in China, thus increasing your market.
This assumes that the goal is a completely finished locomotive, and in Railflyer's case it was. He should have used the profits from completed sales of his various cab kits, etched detail parts, cnc wire-formed parts, and other small details to fund the rest of the locomotive tooling.
He could have initially aimed his product line toward the Cannon line of parts, even though they were considered competition. This would have actually helped both companies, encouraging sales of Cannon diesel parts to complement Railflyer's hood cores for example. Then later on, he could have introduced, not necessarily in this order, walkway/sill sections (initially compatible with existing locomotive chassis, and then later for Railflyer proprietary chassis designs), hood doors, hatches, and grilles, hood ends, dynamic brake sections, fuel tanks, etc., until he had enough parts to build a complete locomotive. Railflyer was in a "long game" situation that he tried to play in one or or two innings.
With Railflyer now defunct...well, let me qualify that. He actually does still sell his designs from his Shapeways store titled "Rebel Locomotives" found here www.shapeways.com/shops/rebellocomotives. What I meant by defunct was that Railflyer is not currently operating as a business in the mainstream model railroad industry. Either way, this still leaves Cannon as the only manufacturer of these types of parts, which modelers, like me, still purchase quite regularly. Though, laser-cut hood section would drastically hasten locomotive construction! (hint, Dave! )
Donnell |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 4, 2020 8:05:56 GMT -8
The only Railflyer parts I ever bought were his special stepwells that I could use for the first BN GP38's--photoengraved brass. Over time, I likely would have bought more. And I agree that a "synergistic" relationship with Cannon could have benefited both.
I, too, think he was trying to move too fast. He should have developed his parts business first. Then he would have had a (good) reputation with customers, who would then be more likely to buy his later locomotives. At a MUCH higher price. Neither would it have hurt his relationship with HIS suppliers and with HIS financial lenders.
Reputation is a LOT.
Ed
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Post by 12bridge on Sept 4, 2020 8:09:20 GMT -8
I always held hope somebody would pickup his line of parts. They were hands down some of the best ever made. But unfortunately he burned so many people with his poor business practices, inability to communicate, and at the end of the day, simply screwing so many people of of parts and engines that were pre-ordered.
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Post by fr8kar on Sept 4, 2020 10:41:58 GMT -8
Looks very good. Only notable striations visible in this pic are on the roof, which being a GE and rounded makes things a little more difficult. Printing it upright, or at least at an angle, would remove most if not all of that. Of course printing it on end with Shapeways would likely be about $500... Shapeways printers have the best resolution in the Z axis, and details facing upward look the best compared to details facing downward. Their pricing is in part based on volume, so you pay for the empty volume of a completely assembled shell and get to deal with the crappy resolution of the parts printed vertically. And for a bonus any feature that is underneath an overhanging feature gets scarring from the material supporting the overhanging feature. Breaking it down to a flat kit reduces the cost and improves the resolution. I think it was about $70 for the body kit. The frame was around $21 and the fuel tank/air reservoirs $18. I used Athearn power trucks, driveshafts and a Kato motor. The body was completed with a Cannon brakewheel, Tangent grabs and Atlas sand filler and radiator parts. The handrails are Utah Pacific with the Smokey Valley stanchions for the B unit section. It all adds up to be quite expensive, but I'm sure at some point there will be better options than Shapeways. I had to make some changes since I printed the model shown, so until I successfully print the current version I won't offer it for sale. |
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