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Post by Deleted on Sept 4, 2020 11:10:48 GMT -8
Railflyer's downfall, like many, was insufficient cash / cashflow. He was in the classic catch-22 where he didn't have the funding to tool up an entire locomotives worth of parts at once, but few were willing to buy the parts piece by piece over a long, long period of time. And to a point if you can afford the costs to tool all the parts for a loco you may as well go the extra bit and simply have it made RTR in China, thus increasing your market.
This assumes that the goal is a completely finished locomotive, and in Railflyer's case it was. He should have used the profits from completed sales of his various cab kits, etched detail parts, cnc wire-formed parts, and other small details to fund the rest of the locomotive tooling.
He could have initially aimed his product line toward the Cannon line of parts, even though they were considered competition. This would have actually helped both companies, encouraging sales of Cannon diesel parts to complement Railflyer's hood cores for example. Then later on, he could have introduced, not necessarily in this order, walkway/sill sections (initially compatible with existing locomotive chassis, and then later for Railflyer proprietary chassis designs), hood doors, hatches, and grilles, hood ends, dynamic brake sections, fuel tanks, etc., until he had enough parts to build a complete locomotive. Railflyer was in a "long game" situation that he tried to play in one or or two innings.
With Railflyer now defunct...well, let me qualify that. He actually does still sell his designs from his Shapeways store titled "Rebel Locomotives" found here www.shapeways.com/shops/rebellocomotives. What I meant by defunct was that Railflyer is not currently operating as a business in the mainstream model railroad industry. Either way, this still leaves Cannon as the only manufacturer of these types of parts, which modelers, like me, still purchase quite regularly. Though, laser-cut hood section would drastically hasten locomotive construction! (hint, Dave! )
Donnell Yes...agree completely. Had Chris worked on the drive and the hood cores; utilizing Cannon components at first; he could then have offered the completed engine and helped both companies...Those Salem air filters were among the best looking under frame parts that I've ever seen...before or since. And, his plastic frame (with metal inserts for weight) design was front and center on the Rapido B36-7...IIRC...so we was years ahead in some areas...but stiffed a bunch of people when Railflyer went bust. |
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Post by markfj on Sept 4, 2020 12:26:03 GMT -8
I think this this is the new company that Chris formally of Railfyler now runs: Rebel Locomotives
Back to ScaleTrains: Does anyone know if some of the retired road names on the PS-2CD 4785 cars in the Operator line will get bumped up to Rivet Counter? I would buy several of the NYC and PCB cars, but prefer Rivet Counter level details. I think this was discussed before and someone said it might happen. Thanks, Mark J. Reading, PA |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 5, 2020 6:31:12 GMT -8
The fact that you can name 4 people/companies who attempted it and failed says it all.
Unlike the other model kit hobbies our hobby is for most not about building a model loco, but about building a railroad that we can operate. This inherently changes the scale of what is required, and thus most in the hobby have been more than happy to pay a bit extra to get a fully done model so more time can be spent elsewhere on the layout or just running trains. Yes, there is a small subset of the hobby who both enjoy making kits and have the skills to either finish the model to a standard that can be bought (and for some perhaps even finish better than the somewhat mass produced). But for most of us achieving a paint and decal finish equivalent to what China produces is beyond our capabilities. I'm not ready to call this one a failure just yet:  In fact, it was quite successful. I have several more designs to print in the future based on the success of this model. Now, the price is a little high and the print resolution could be better, but these are problems that will be solved over time. Will there be widespread adoption of flat locomotive kits in this hobby? I doubt it, but I made the model for myself not every HO scale modeler out there. But for modelers of the rare or unusual prototype, these flat kits are an effective way to get those much needed models the big guys will never touch.* * I fully expect Rapido will release both versions of the BN cabless boosters at some point since they have the Phase III drive for them. The Southern B30-7A1 though is a different animal entirely. That's a great model. Back east we had the PRR/PC GP9B's, but one could have easily imagined other lobotomized locos hard at work. There's a raw mechanical essence to cabless locos. We had plenty of cow/calf switchers working the steel mills. I might even adopt an ES44 if someone made a B-unit. 3D printed flat kits can offer an advantage over resin flat kits if the reverse side incorporates positive locating features. The printed kits inherently control the reverse surface, adding tabs, channels etc permit the use of printed internal bracing. This makes it easier to make a "square" model. The Arrowhead mixed-media gondola offers another avenue for improved models which may be used by 3D parts. For parts with thin cross sections or difficult to print radii, a thin brass overlay on top of a 3D printed frame can offer the best of both worlds. For instance, a small overhanging lip on a cab, an etched brass roof over a 3D printed cab would be ideal. The 3D printed part ensures the correct curvature, while the etched brass part provides near-scale thickness:  Same for the frame and safety tread, although the cab lip is far more visable. None of these are in the realm of most mass-market vendors, for now. As competition continues to drive excellence, we may expect more from top-tier vendors. Whether in assembled, partially-assembled or kit form. Personally, I prefer undec (and unassembled!) models from manufacturers, so that their excellent plastic tooling can be utilized as a basis for further improved models. When creative modelers like Ryan offer add-on extras that work with commercial kits it opens up so many new windows. |
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Post by cannon on Sept 5, 2020 7:01:11 GMT -8
Railflyer's downfall, like many, was insufficient cash / cashflow. He was in the classic catch-22 where he didn't have the funding to tool up an entire locomotives worth of parts at once, but few were willing to buy the parts piece by piece over a long, long period of time. . Either way, this still leaves Cannon as the only manufacturer of these types of parts, which modelers, like me, still purchase quite regularly. Though, laser-cut hood section would drastically hasten locomotive construction! (hint, Dave! ) Donnell [/font] [/quote] Chris’s problem was Chris. I’ll just leave it at that. Besides the drive would have never worked. As for laser cut sides. I did consider offering them back when I first got the laser. However there were several roadblocks to making a complete shell, besides deciding on what to make. 1) The Dynamic Brake Section. This is a complex 3D shape with dozens of possible feature combinations, that do not lend themselves to the laser. There were no commercially available complete separate DB’s available other than a couple blue box Athearn ones that were not easily obtainable. 2) The walkway. Again too many choices. 3) The drive. All of this was about 8 years ago before the flood of both model and RR specific engines available as RTR. This has drastically changed the parts business. When I bought Cannon in 2006 following Gordon’s passing, the parts sales were good if you were upgrading Athearn blue box and RailPower shells. As more and more RTR specific engines became available sales have dropped off dramatically. As brick and mortar shops close the distributor sales (with their discount structure) have slowed. Only having a direct sale shopping cart has kept revenue somewhat acceptable. I made the choice to branch out with the laser freight cars instead, where I could offer a complete project. Even though it has required sourcing parts from other manufacturers. Besides I make them as much as for my own amusement and use rather than a get rich endeavor. Dave Hussey Cannon and Company |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 5, 2020 7:26:38 GMT -8
For those who missed it, here's a photo of the Railflyer drive:  I recall it being pretty noisy. But then it wasn't under load at the time. Ed |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 5, 2020 7:48:27 GMT -8
For those who missed it, here's a photo of the Railflyer drive: I recall it being pretty noisy. But then it wasn't under load at the time. Ed Some things scale down reasonably well. Some don't. Motors don't. There are all kinds of electromechanical things going on inside a motor that make a good puller in a tiny package a non-starter. I still buy Cannon parts. They're dimensionally correct. |
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 5, 2020 9:06:43 GMT -8
Seems like an HO scale traction motor would have the same problems the free rolling steamers did running away down grades.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Sept 5, 2020 9:11:02 GMT -8
Seems like an HO scale traction motor would have the same problems the free rolling steamers did running away down grades. Time for working brakes!!! And perhaps working AIR brakes, someday. Train breaks in two from those darn cheap plastic couplers? DUMP THE AIR! Yeah. I know. I'm getting giddy. It's from interacting in another topic. Ed |
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Post by Donnell Wells on Sept 5, 2020 9:36:25 GMT -8
I've always liked the look of Overland drives with their individual axle gear boxes. It had the look of individual traction motors, but the power and simplicity of the traditional drive setup, i.e., motor > flywheels > driveshaft > gear tower. Plus, they were low-profile, which seems to be what ScaleTrains has adopted in their drives to leave room for cab interior, sound/lighting, and weight.
Donnell
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Post by grahamline on Sept 5, 2020 9:43:02 GMT -8
Seems like an HO scale traction motor would have the same problems the free rolling steamers did running away down grades. Not if you have high-functioning extended range dynamics. Or counter-EMF. |
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Post by thebessemerkid on Sept 5, 2020 9:44:53 GMT -8
Seems like an HO scale traction motor would have the same problems the free rolling steamers did running away down grades. Time for working brakes!!! And perhaps working AIR brakes, someday. Train breaks in two from those darn cheap plastic couplers? DUMP THE AIR! Yeah. I know. I'm getting giddy. It's from interacting in another topic. Ed Imagine trying to chase air leaks in a 1/87 scale system. And yes, any spur gear drive will let the output drive the input (runaway). The only things holding our engines in place are worm drives and friction. The latter helps with pure helical drives. As for trucks, the Reboxx test setup (a bowl-shaped track) was good for evaluating how free rolling trucks were. At least dynamically. An additional static test should be an adjustable inclined plane, gently increasing angle without inducing vibration (no mean feat) until a truck breaks loose and rolls. Personally, I want microminiature robot brakemen scurrying back and forth on roofwalks, cranking on vertical brakewheels... |
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Post by thunderhawk on Sept 5, 2020 10:33:11 GMT -8
I've always liked the look of Overland drives with their individual axle gear boxes. It had the look of individual traction motors, but the power and simplicity of the traditional drive setup, i.e., motor > flywheels > driveshaft > gear tower. Plus, they were low-profile, which seems to be what ScaleTrains has adopted in their drives to leave room for cab interior, sound/lighting, and weight.
DonnellI wish individual gearboxes were available at a reasonable price as they make any wheelbase truck fairly easy to make. |
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Post by bnsf971 on Sept 5, 2020 11:01:38 GMT -8
Imagine trying to chase air leaks in a 1/87 scale system. Oh, hell no. Chasing air leaks on the 1:1 models is a big enough PITA. |
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Post by mdvle on Feb 11, 2021 18:41:30 GMT -8
ScaleTrains - February 11th 2021 - Q&A very likely errors - moving very fast at times new email address for suggestions - ideas@scaletrains.com - MTH - NYC steam upgraded to Rivet Counter? - MTH - won't see to many external changes, maybe a few minor things - aware from time at Athearn and the Front Range GP7/9, Tower 55 acquisitions that often better off tooling from scratch - what first from MTH? Daylight - S scale? freight car first, then maybe some locos. - S scale - if goes well maybe some new tooling - some MTH tooling could become a new sub-brand - Big Blow Turbine - #28 Museum Quality, working on tooling - Big Blow Turbine - #6, #18, #26, #30 rerun - announce this spring, eta early 2022 - SD40-2 with ditchlights - sooner rather than later, next run likely March announcement (SF, MILW, Admiral Cabs), eta later this year - SD40-2 - tons of new variations being tooled - ICG, etc. - SD45 - this spring announcement, Southern - eta later this year - C39 - announcement later this year, eta 2022 - SF Dash-9 - aware of paint color complaints, have new paint chips to use in future runs - AC4400 - natural extension, but more Dash-9 first - can't share specifics of projects they are working on - items other than rolling stock? - working on trailer, hoping announce this year - like to get into structures - replacement parts - support@scaletrains.com - wheels & couplers - this spring (some already in warehouse, just need to add to website) - offer retrofit kits for MTH? maybe, depends on how complicated the switch would be - auto racks, tank cars, coil cars in Kit Classics - unlikely, need few parts to keep costs down - 4-axle diesel - in the works, no timeline yet, hopefully this year - most rewarding part of owning model railroad company - meeting fellow modelers, see ScaleTrains products on layouts - weathered models - not really practical - unnumbered models - problem is decals, lots of leftover decals in warehouse, maybe in future with no decals - why start ScaleTrains - Mike & Shane athearn, Atlanta NTS joked cool to have own business, went from there. - why? - lots of projects wanted to do athearn but couldn't get approval - like to product but can't? - how close is close enough - some items require tooling that wouldn't be paid for by sales, would a 90% accurate loco be okay? - Kit Classics locos? - price point would be at Operator level, so no - ScaleTrains is hiring - 2 or 3 product development, later on product support and shipping - if someone willing to pay for tooling? yes, would consider it - recently had discussions for an S scale item and 2 O scale items - tooling costs - new locos average $200k plus, freight car $60k to $100k - moving location for MTH acquisition - not likely, exploring options - addition or new building on property, or ? - shirts ? yes, new website and logo coming, then shirts and hats - 3D printing - not there yet, too slow for mass production, not in the near future - new retailers? - email now to be added to list for later this year (didn't get email address) - gunderson covered hopper - greatly exceeded expectations - dummies - little in way of savings, detail parts assembly driving costs - smoke units in steam locos - yes - Freight Car America aggregate hoppers - trying for 6 years to get a contact at Freight Car America, if anyone can help email ScaleTrains - open house - they had visitors from 20 states and 4 countries, would like to do again when safe to do so - CSX pride locos - so far $5k to each of the 5 charities (total $25k), when next locos arrive additional $1k to each of the charities - SDL39 demand? already at 90% of expectations and most dealer orders not yet in - makes more obscure items possible in future - coming up to 7th anniversary - will company be constrained by MTH purchase? no, have already added capacity at factory, full steam ahead - over 20 non-MTH all-new-projects in pipeline currently (no eta) - loyalty program in future - hobby dying? they don't think so, made major commitment yesterday - contacted by 6 shows for this summer - undecorated? - factory can't pack them properly, sales very low, don't know the future - late this year for first MTH product announcement(s) YouTube link |
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Post by fr8kar on Feb 11, 2021 20:12:45 GMT -8
I'm sure the SD45 will eventually end up in my collection, I just don't know which one it will be. Mid 80s? Easily justified. Late 80s? Getting scarce for my area of interest.
On the other hand, I can't really use another C39-8, can I? If I get one more it needs a companion. So two more.
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Post by hovehicle on Feb 11, 2021 21:21:06 GMT -8
mdvle,
Great job doing this for us as I had no idea this was going to happen. My favorite part is the possibility of the trailer announcement and possibly doing some structures. I do hope the trailer is a 53' modern version from the 2000's with side skirting. I'd love to see super-detailed Rivet Counter water towers; the kind that you see in modern America.
Vito L.
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tomoc
New Member
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Post by tomoc on Feb 12, 2021 6:12:40 GMT -8
Mdvle,
excellent review as I also listened in to the you tube event. Shane has always been pretty clear about the direction the company is moving in. Last night he gave out a lot of info. Lots of possibilities for IMO one of the top train companies.
TomO
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Post by riogrande on Feb 12, 2021 6:38:28 GMT -8
I'm sure the SD45 will eventually end up in my collection Got a couple of the SP Rivet Counters but I'm surprised there have been no more SD45 roads announced for what seems like a good while now. The real wallet killers for me are yet to come. The later, much more numerous, SP SD45's with the L windshields and high mount brake cylinders, and of course, D&RGW. My Athearn RTR D&RGW SD45's aren't bad layout models overall despite their RP heritage. But Athearn never ran the most common SP SD45 with the better details. |
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Post by mdvle on Apr 15, 2021 15:32:20 GMT -8
From their weekly email, ScaleTrains will be participating in Saturday's virtual trainshow.
Interacting will be available:
12:30-2:00pm - Drayton Blackgrove - Social Media Marketer
2:30-4:00pm - Mark Mcallister - Product Support Specialist
4:30-6:30pm - Shane Wilson - President
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Post by mdvle on Apr 17, 2021 15:05:58 GMT -8
ScaleTrains - April 17th (WGH Online Show) - Q&A with Shane Wilson
- announcements coming this Thursday:
- next run of SD45
- next run of PS 4785 Covered Hopper
- surprise! 2 roadnames of coil car will be announced with immediate availability
- part 1 of their "how models are made" video
- next online session - soon on Drew Warrington's live show on YouTube on a Friday night
- Rio Grande SD45's? - not in next run (announcing this week), but definately coming
- they have done a total of 39 different versions of the ES44 so far, H1 BNSF coming in one of the next several runs
- would you reconsider previously abandoned projects? - SD60E stopped just before tooling with Athearn announcement, might consider doing it as part of a SD50/SD60 platform.
- AC4400 + rebuilds? - definitely in the works, no timeframe
- new versions of the SD40-2 in tooling - announce later this year for 2022 delivery
- SDL39, why? - sales better than expected, well enough other niche locos might be possible, say one every 12 to 24 months
- undec locos? - problematic getting factory to make, have a very high (up to 50%) cancellation rate, often only about 20 orders
- do narrow gauge, White Pass Alcos? - not in short term, possibly long term
- early summer - new logo, new website, possibly things like hats, etc.
- EOT device? - have talked about it
- ES44AC - early summer announcement, around Feb 2022 arrival - UP, Ferromex likely options
- working on a loyalty program
- MTH - 10 rivet counter transition era freight cars coming from MTH designs
- MTH - considered buying all of MTH, decided it would be too much for them at this time
- MTH - first announcements Trainfest, likely steam first
- MTH - MTH also provided steam designs
- Shane working on a layout design - 2 deck with continuous climb (no helix), a bridge line in the Appalachia's between NS and CSX, coal hauling, mid-80s era
- Amtrak - not on short list
- will be attending Collinsville RPM, Trainfest
- Gunderson 5188 - early to mid-summer announcement
- slide photo collections of locos? - would love to scan, provide you with a digital copy along with return of originals if they get to keep a digital copy
- minimum quantities for a project? freight car 3k to 5k, 2k to 3k for a loco
- with expansion of their facilities want to have 3 layouts (N/HO/S)
- 4-axle loco in tooling now
- fallen-flags on modern locos? would like feedback, other manufacturers have indicated they often outsell real paint schemes
- 3 more kit-classics in design, likely to be the last of them - trouble finding "simple" models that can be done with few parts to maintain price
- Bethgon started out as kit-classic put part count pushed it up into operator price range, so it changed to an operator model
- despite Covid they had a great year
- when Life Like converted their kits (like Mathers Stock Car) to assembled models LL sales went through the roof
- NW2? - on list of possibilities
- another autorack? - likely
- modern hi-cube boxcar? - they would like to do, but they can't find a prototype that is common to multiple roadnames - they all seem to be specific to an owner, making model problematic
- GP30? - Shane's favorite diesel.
- more things planned in the vehicle department, working on a trailer(?)
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Post by riogrande on Apr 17, 2021 15:16:00 GMT -8
Thanks for the summary!
GP30 is Shanes favorite diesel? That is hopeful then! Certainly I want a rivet counter D&RGW GP30!
- Rio Grande SD45's? - not in next run (announcing this week), but definately coming
Good to know. My Athearns are decent and will fill in for now, plus it gives my wallet a reprieve. But if ST includes the later peas in a pod SP SD45 with L windshield and high mount brake cylinders, that will still be wallet pain!
Glad for the SDL39 fans it is looking like a success!
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Post by 690 on Apr 17, 2021 15:23:56 GMT -8
Hopefully Guilford SD45s are in this next run; they had both N&W and Southern versions.
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Post by nstophat on Apr 17, 2021 15:45:14 GMT -8
GP30's, Shane's favorite locomotive? He's modeling NS & CSX in Appalachia in the 80's & 90's? Hmmmm, CSX GP30 Road Slugs.....
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Apr 17, 2021 15:59:06 GMT -8
The fact that their undecorated models come with absolutely no directions, suggestions or even rudimentary “exploded” diagram is a total turn off. I have one undec SD40T-2 sitting on my work bench about 2% done in total frustration, overwealmed by the shear number of bits and pieces and no idea where the - bleep- they go. I really don’t think they wanted to do them at all and have gone out of their way to make undec models as inconvenient for the customer as possible.
I’ve bought undecs for years, starting with Athearn blue box, many Proto 2000, Atlas, BLI, Kato and Walters and Stewart/Bowser as well as data only cars. It’s the easiest way a freelance guy can have a fleet for his RR. I bought one Scale Trains SD40T-2, (SP) stripped and painted it for my road name, that was quite the task, never to be repeated. So, with that background I was overjoyed when Shane and his crew announced the undec SD40-2 and ordered one and almost before the ink was dry on that order low and behold the 40T-2 undec was announced and I just HAD to get a pair of them. I loved the two I had, one still in SP and the repaint I mentioned. When the dust settled and I had a moment to look at what I’d done....opened one up and started to see what it was all about....a gigantic case of buyer’s remorse set in. Surely I’m not in the market for more of their undecs. Which pleases them to no end I’m sure. Don’t get me wrong I’ve been a fan of ST.com since day 1, preordered the Big Blow Rivit Counter and have probably a dozen or more of their products with zero complaints. But undecs again, never again. Walters does that right, undec and a parts kit if you want to dress it up.
GP-30? My fave since they were new, probably have to pass. I have a lifetime of too many parts to decypher now.
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Apr 17, 2021 16:15:21 GMT -8
I am slightly shocked by the comment that there are 10 rivet counter transition era freight cars coming from MTH designs. What I have seen of MTH HO scale freight cars I only thought one would be close enough to a rivet counter level of detail.
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Post by unittrain on Apr 17, 2021 16:33:29 GMT -8
Shane's favorite locomotive GP30!! Sounds good looks like a great chance we'll see a rivet counter 30😎 I'd take B&O sunburst and capital dome scheme and Chessie PC and Pennsylvania railroad maybe a NYC too.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 17, 2021 16:40:25 GMT -8
What I have seen of MTH HO scale freight cars I only thought one would be close enough to a rivet counter level of detail. The ore car? Or is there something else? Ed |
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Apr 17, 2021 16:54:33 GMT -8
Yes, the ore car. What I have seen of MTH HO scale freight cars I only thought one would be close enough to a rivet counter level of detail. The ore car? Or is there something else? Ed |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Apr 17, 2021 17:26:44 GMT -8
For folks who are ore-uninformed:  There's no doubt I'd get a few, if ST does them. I'd love to have a LOT, but....... Note, by the way, how the wheels stick out beyond the end of the car--always liked that!  Ed |
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Post by migalyto on Apr 17, 2021 17:52:59 GMT -8
Here's to hoping Citirail is in the second run of ES44s.
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