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Post by bridge2nowhere on Jun 29, 2022 13:24:46 GMT -8
I suspect the plastic grabs are too allow for variations in placement without having to tool different versions of the shell. Just drill two holes and install an oversize grab complete with ends and sprue nubs.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 29, 2022 14:30:04 GMT -8
I suspect the plastic grabs are too allow for variations in placement without having to tool different versions of the shell. Just drill two holes and install an oversize grab complete with ends and sprue nubs. As opposed to just drilling two holes and installing a bent wire grab? I fail to see the difference. I will note that Rapido didn't bother to do much in variations for their FA-2's. I'm not sure if their nose ladder grabs were right for any road. Ed |
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Post by Mr. Trainiac on Jun 29, 2022 15:12:53 GMT -8
I suspect the plastic grabs are too allow for variations in placement without having to tool different versions of the shell. Just drill two holes and install an oversize grab complete with ends and sprue nubs. If they are drilling holes for plastic grabs, why not drill those same holes for metal grabs? Or instead of drilling two holes, drill four holes and install Tichy NBW castings too? The window thickness issue could easily be solved too. I read through the forum thread LVRR325 linked, and someone brought up the same thing and compared it to Genesis F units and how thin their windows are. They said the Genesis windows are installed from the outside. Okay, if you know how that method works, and it yields good-looking results, why not copy it? Why intentionally use an inferior and ugly design? Rapido loves to talk about detail, but their manufacturing methods to achieve that detail are relatively poor, which causes the details they try to make suffer. As modelers and researchers, they are very skilled, as tooling designers and product engineers, not so much. They need to focus on the fit and finish of their products (PA brake cylinders, B36-7 ATSF paint, and other issues brought up in the other thread like bad passenger car windows and motor failures) when they design all these details. They talk big talk (OMG they scanned it with LASERS  Can you believe that guys, they used A LASER - that's sarcasm by the way), but it's hard to take them seriously when they cut corners like skipping primer on the ATSF B36-7 and using cheap plastic detail parts that are barely installed correctly. |
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Post by markfj on Jun 29, 2022 15:26:52 GMT -8
Just posting the prototype to model comparison photo mentioned above.  Thanks, Mark J. Reading, PA |
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Post by severn on Jun 29, 2022 17:03:10 GMT -8
That's a nice side by side but they are not quite identical in size or viewing angle.
Grab irons. I have no idea the diameter of real ones. I suspect 1/2 to maybe 1"?
If these are 1 mm, then that's 87.x mm scaled, which is something like 3.x" diameter.
Well who knows how wide these are by the photo ... maybe a little under 1mm.
Ok so 1" is near 25 mm. So roughly dividing by 87 and looking up wire gauge I get 28 to 29 gauge wire ... which is pretty thin stuff.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 29, 2022 17:49:17 GMT -8
That's a nice side by side but they are not quite identical in size or viewing angle. Grab irons. I have no idea the diameter of real ones. I suspect 1/2 to maybe 1"? If these are 1 mm, then that's 87.x mm scaled, which is something like 3.x" diameter. Well who knows how wide these are by the photo ... maybe a little under 1mm. Ok so 1" is near 25 mm. So roughly dividing by 87 and looking up wire gauge I get 28 to 29 gauge wire ... which is pretty thin stuff.
If those photos were another 10 degrees off in either axis, the window area will still be malformed.
Hand grabs are 5/8" diameter, so .625"/(3048/35) ~ 0.0072" in HO scale. That's just larger than 33 gauge wire.
Tichy sells 0.008" wire, which is about 0.7" in HO.
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Post by cera2254 on Jun 29, 2022 18:33:56 GMT -8
A little late I know but to add to the Rapido factory discussion, there was an issue with the E8 trucks at first. I think there was too much space between the truck and the body, and it was because someone in the factory just made the decision to change it seemingly without anyones approval or knowledge.
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Post by westerntrains on Jun 29, 2022 21:38:42 GMT -8
In light of this new information, I'll pass on these models.
Rapido should stop with the silly videos and focus on improving quality.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2022 7:42:16 GMT -8
I really don't like feeling like the "negative Nancy", but I was really really ticked at the job they did on the Kodachrome B36-7 units...and the RS-11 first run before that...and their freight cars that look fantastic but actually roll like crap (I've now replaced all Rapido wheelsets with either Moloco or Intermountain, or outright replaced the whole truck with Athearn trucks that ARE actually free rolling).
I've been feeling like, besides the Seaboard/CSX folks, that perhaps I was almost being unfairly critical of Rapido.
It's actually refreshing to see all the comments about the issues here with the PA's, and that perhaps I'm not alone in my assessment(s).
In the past I've been critical of others, but companies like Athearn stand behind their product whenever there is a legitimate issue (even providing replacement bodies) and have made some really fine improvements (including but not limited to LED's and illuminated numberboards) to previously tooled Genesis models. I feel like Athearn is legitimately trying to listen to everybody and up their game.
John
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Post by lvrr325 on Jun 30, 2022 8:27:06 GMT -8
IMHO Rapido is trying to do too much, too fast, for too high a price point.
The new run of the Canadian 52'6" mill gon dropped yesterday and I picked up two singles because I had an order to complete. But looking at eBay the first run isn't too hard to find for less than my cost on these. That's kind of telling as far as where the marketplace is vs. where the retail price is.
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Jun 30, 2022 9:37:44 GMT -8
As opposed to just drilling two holes and installing a bent wire grab? I fail to see the difference. Ed The obvious difference is that two holes for a wire grab doesn't give you the end detail, and 4 holes costs twice as much as 2 holes and risks increased defects if the holes aren't aligned. I recall Rapido explained this once, possibly in regards to the E8. |
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Post by 12bridge on Jun 30, 2022 9:42:55 GMT -8
You just have to look at the website to see how many open projects they have, its crazy. Obviously all companies are working on things behind the scenes at all times, but to announce to many, new tool projects so close together?
The thing that gets me, with Athearn, ScaleTrains, Walthers...they have established their "style" per say. You know what your getting into when you get a Mainline engine, as they have all been tooled in the manner. You know what a Rivet Counter engine will entail, how the handrails will be, what kind of lift rings, etc, because its done the same way.
With Rapido..it seems one project is one way, another is the other way. One has nice/finely tooled parts, another uses clunky molded parts. One has wire form parts, one has molded grabs. One has great paint and lettering, one is horrible.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 30, 2022 9:44:39 GMT -8
As opposed to just drilling two holes and installing a bent wire grab? I fail to see the difference. Ed The obvious difference is that two holes for a wire grab doesn't give you the end detail, and 4 holes costs twice as much as 2 holes and risks increased defects if the holes aren't aligned. I recall Rapido explained this once, possibly in regards to the E8.
That explains why no other models have ever been made with wire grabs and why 2" diameter plastic grabs are not only necessary, but the best.
Because Rapido.
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Jun 30, 2022 9:50:31 GMT -8
It seems like Rapido is more of a co-op than traditional manufacturers. They have quite a few different project managers, with different interest, knowledge and goals. At Rapido it seems like they each work independently vs. the collaboration and unified vision seen at other companies. I don't watch most of the videos, but I think Jason said he's stepped back from involvement in each product.
I'm very happy with the Rapido products I have, but they haven't made much I can use, or that is worth upgrading my existing products.
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Post by bridge2nowhere on Jun 30, 2022 10:04:05 GMT -8
That explains why no other models have ever been made with wire grabs and why 2" diameter plastic grabs are not only necessary, but the best.
Because Rapido.
I don't like it, but that seems to be their choice. |
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Post by Baikal on Jun 30, 2022 10:18:28 GMT -8
That explains why no other models have ever been made with wire grabs and why 2" diameter plastic grabs are not only necessary, but the best.
Because Rapido.
I don't like it, but that seems to be their choice.
Overheard:
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Post by lvrr325 on Jun 30, 2022 11:16:35 GMT -8
Where an Atlas or Athearn has dozens, even hundreds of things they can just do new runs of and only have to deal with the artwork and details, with new things only a few times a year, Rapido is about the opposite - almost everything is new tooling and very few things are re-runs. And some of the re-runs need work for the second batch.
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Post by csxt8400 on Jun 30, 2022 13:11:28 GMT -8
You just have to look at the website to see how many open projects they have, its crazy. Obviously all companies are working on things behind the scenes at all times, but to announce to many, new tool projects so close together? The thing that gets me, with Athearn, ScaleTrains, Walthers...they have established their "style" per say. You know what your getting into when you get a Mainline engine, as they have all been tooled in the manner. You know what a Rivet Counter engine will entail, how the handrails will be, what kind of lift rings, etc, because its done the same way. With Rapido..it seems one project is one way, another is the other way. One has nice/finely tooled parts, another uses clunky molded parts. One has wire form parts, one has molded grabs. One has great paint and lettering, one is horrible. Took the words out of my mouth. Even the coal car announced next to the plastics hopper seemed to have finer end detail than the other, simultaneous project. Locomotives the same way. I am not a basher, I love Rapido's style and ability to announce out-of-left-field models. But I think the consensus is that being more dedicated to nailing the product is far more important to us who spend the money, than a constant stream of shiny objects that miss many marks. I passed on the PA's but did order two E8's, and my expectations have been downhill since the initial announcement. The only reason I'm not pulling my reservations is that I don't have any E's in my collection. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 30, 2022 13:19:14 GMT -8
As opposed to just drilling two holes and installing a bent wire grab? I fail to see the difference. Ed The obvious difference is that two holes for a wire grab doesn't give you the end detail, and 4 holes costs twice as much as 2 holes and risks increased defects if the holes aren't aligned. I recall Rapido explained this once, possibly in regards to the E8. Rapido explains lots of things. My point was that the current choice is to drill two holes and insert a scale size grab without adjoining detail, or drill two holes and insert an oversize casting that has oversize adjoining detail. Either way: drill two holes and install. My view is that the oversize casting is bigger and uglier than the lack of the adjacent pieces. And that view affects my decisions to buy. Ed |
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Post by cemr5396 on Jun 30, 2022 14:51:30 GMT -8
Rapido is about the opposite - almost everything is new tooling and very few things are re-runs. And some of the re-runs need work for the second batch. The former is by choice, the latter is by incompetence. Either way is not particularly productive. They've been in this game long enough and have produced enough stuff over the years they could easily re run past products if they wanted to. For reasons only known to them, they choose not to. For the majority of stuff they have made, especially some of the older stuff, Rapido has been one and done. Stuff like the RS11 and B36 getting quick 2nd runs is the exception, not the norm. |
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Post by cera2254 on Jun 30, 2022 16:12:17 GMT -8
I do like a lot of the Rapido stuff and concur with the many things that have been said. That being said I am concerned about the paint on the upcoming Conrail C30-7s after the Conrail RS11s and the Kodachrome B36s. I’ll hang onto my Overland version until I see how they come out.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2022 16:28:58 GMT -8
Ed pretty much nailed it!
As for me, I agree with Ed and prefer the more durable wire details wherever possible. Models get handled, and small plastic details aren't going to last as well as wire, and the wire just looks better, more realistic to my eyes.
As said well above, but worth repeating: Other companies like Athearn keep re-releasing improved runs of their Genesis series diesels, and getting better, but there is a certain comfort in knowing what to expect from them as opposed to generally one-offs.
John
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Post by sd80mac on Jul 1, 2022 7:13:34 GMT -8
In light of this new information, I'll pass on these models. Rapido should stop with the silly videos and focus on improving quality. There is plenty to criticize Rapido about, but this isn't one of those things. I can only imagine how miserable one must be to not get a chuckle out of their videos! |
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Post by Tom on Jul 1, 2022 7:14:49 GMT -8
In light of this new information, I'll pass on these models. Rapido should stop with the silly videos and focus on improving quality. Thank you.
A 20 minute video on why the Turbotrain I spent hunderds on (and doesn't run) is openly trashed by the manufacturer who told me it was "the greatest and bestest -MOST ACCURATE thing in the world!" And it should now be put on ebay, so I can buy a new one for three times as much....because they want me to and don't stand behind what they designed and built. On that, has anyone else noticed that the new "Turbo 2.0" is already listed on the site as "Ready for Production" as some previous run items (Horizon car, RS-11, CN M420) when products announced over a year ago haven't shown up in sample form yet?
Now, we're told "BUY THIS!!! BECAUSE YOU LIKE US! and we make goofy 30 minute videos! Videos sell trains! So do random 2+ hour live streams!"
That energy should be spent on the actual product, no? Yep, plastic grabs are cheaper and you can get NBWs on them.....(read: easier to produce, greater margins)
Amazing accuracy is held by Tangent or Moloco, who live up to their well earned reputation and we can trust to have solid, amazing products. Small releases and incredible attention to the products produce and sell.
We know what we get with a Walthers product or an Atlas product or an Athearn product or even a ScaleTrains product. None of them scream how amazing they (as a company) are in 20 minute videos, or how 1000% accurate their products are, nor do they trash their competition. With regards to product Rapido is a total lottery, or perhaps Ponzi (?).
If you've ever had to take apart a product, good luck -no two are remotely the same. Marketing product that's maybe 20% better, for a 350% increase in price seems to be what they've become (my biggest irritation). It's unfortunate.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2022 8:29:24 GMT -8
I do get a chuckle out of their videos, but I also hesitate to watch them because they are so freakin' long, and I seem to be busy with other things such that my time is better spent elsewhere.
However, after tmurray's post, well I was contemplating placing a pre-order for 1 or 2 Santa Fe C30-7 units, which I would love a model better than BLI's version (have none of those and never did)...but considering all that has happened or not happened with other Rapido products, I may just have to pass.
I have now or will have plenty of other Santa Fe diesels.
John
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Post by el3625 on Jul 1, 2022 8:48:56 GMT -8
I have bought about only a dozen Rapido freight cars and have sold them off. I am not impressed at all with the quality and detail of them. Most do not set at the right coupler height, do not roll smooth, and thick looking details. I do not own any of their locomotives and I am probably not going to. I would love to get the E8's and maybe a U25B but probably will not. We are spoiled by the quality of Tangent and Moloco and some others for the money we spend for nice detail. It is too bad that Rapido cannot get their act together after this long being in business. When they first started with passenger cars, they were pretty nice, and I have some and they used wire grabs. They product is starting to look more like toys than models. Skip the stupid videos like already posted here and concentrate on looks and quality. You hardly never hear anything from them because they do not like the criticism, well shape up then! Athearn at least does a weekly video to let anyone, and everyone know what is going on with them and I would say they have had their share of criticism over the years. Model railroaders are a tough group and will let you know if something is not right, manufacturers that listen will succeed. I have a lot of Athearn, Tangent, Atlas, Moloco and some Scaletrains and I am very happy with their products. Rapido used to do pretty well but they are not the same anymore, too bad, there is some that I would like to purchase, but I do not see that happening anytime soon, they need to listen to their possible customers. The hobby is very expensive now and if all the cost is about the same between manufacturers, my money is not going to them.
Bruce
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Post by Baikal on Jul 1, 2022 9:20:48 GMT -8
In light of this new information, I'll pass on these models. Rapido should stop with the silly videos and focus on improving quality. There is plenty to criticize Rapido about, but this isn't one of those things. I can only imagine how miserable one must be to not get a chuckle out of their videos!
Too much "Hollywood" and everything that's associated with today's show biz / advertising world. I avoid that stuff in daily life, don't want it in model railroading.
Given a choice, I'd prefer quality models over flashy campaigns.
Rapido marketing reminds me of the famous "Angelyne" billboard & media blitz in L.A. during the '80s.
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Post by NS4122 on Jul 1, 2022 9:39:09 GMT -8
There seems to be quite a few humorless geeks in the hobby (which is supposed to be fun)! In light of this new information, I'll pass on these models. Rapido should stop with the silly videos and focus on improving quality. There is plenty to criticize Rapido about, but this isn't one of those things. I can only imagine how miserable one must be to not get a chuckle out of their videos! |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 1, 2022 11:17:46 GMT -8
Telling a good joke at work is great. Unless it detracts from your work.
Ed
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Post by typhoon on Jul 1, 2022 17:45:44 GMT -8
There seems to be quite a few humorless geeks in the hobby (which is supposed to be fun)! There is plenty to criticize Rapido about, but this isn't one of those things. I can only imagine how miserable one must be to not get a chuckle out of their videos! It sure seems like it. It is kind of sad. |
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