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Post by es80ac on Jun 27, 2022 16:35:10 GMT -8
Saw an ad on Trainworld yesterday for preorder of the upcoming Rapido PA. The photo of course looks very enticing especially in the Santa Fe warbonnet color scheme. Does anyone have an opinion so far on this Rapido PA vs the previous Walthers/Lifelike P2K version? The P2K version is much older but when it came out I remember it was touted as the most detailed and accurate PA at that time. Has anyone seen any errors on the Rapido sample so far?
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Post by Baikal on Jun 27, 2022 17:16:10 GMT -8
Saw an ad on Trainworld yesterday for preorder of the upcoming Rapido PA. The photo of course looks very enticing especially in the Santa Fe warbonnet color scheme. Does anyone have an opinion so far on this Rapido PA vs the previous Walthers/Lifelike P2K version? The P2K version is much older but when it came out I remember it was touted as the most detailed and accurate PA at that time. Has anyone seen any errors on the Rapido sample so far?
There was discussion on this forum a week or so ago.
The grab irons are stout like a brown box Proto 2000 GP18. Maybe Rapido will fix them before production, unlike the SW1200.
Some say the windshield is malformed, I couldn't tell. Hope not.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 27, 2022 17:21:16 GMT -8
What's a bit worrisome is that it appears that the Rapido cast grab iron has finally migrated over to their freight cars. I saw a photo of one of the new Santa Fe mechanical reefers, and the two grabs over on the left of the sides looked pretty awful. It wasn't a great photo, though. Maybe they just put lots and lots and lots of black paint on the wire grabs to make sure we could see them.
Now. Back to the PA-1 discussion.
Ed
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2022 5:30:26 GMT -8
Rapido apparently 3D scanned the wrecked and rebuilt former ATSF PA-1 that Doyle McCormack has restored in NKP markings. Though some people are not convinced that the front windshield angles and/or tapers in height are correct on Rapido's model, people who work for Rapido claim that they are and have posted as much over on the Model Railroader forums, while at the same time being very critical of the previously released brass models.
I myself am not totally convinced and will probably have to see one in person...which may be difficult on arrival as by that time I'm sure the Santa Fe and Rio Grande versions will be hard to find.
So I guess it comes down to how well one trusts them. Pre-order slots remain for several PA's, but for how long who knows.
John
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Post by 12bridge on Jun 28, 2022 7:52:22 GMT -8
To me, it looks as though the windows "roll in" towards the center post too much, which is compounded by the extreme thickness of the glass insert, making it look weird.  A photo from the ShastaRoute page showing the frame, sans glass, you can see the true shape.  shastaroute.railfan.net/Photos/PA/10419.jpgA flickr photo showing 190 now - which is worth noting, has FRA glass aluminum frames, which move the original glass perimeter slightly inboard.  www.flickr.com/photos/lionel682/46182275225/sizes/k/To me it looks like they scanned 190, and then compensated for the frames in post production, but went too far. |
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Post by riogrande on Jun 28, 2022 7:58:51 GMT -8
I think we need to see photo's from a few different angles before we can say the windows are wrong.
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Post by 12bridge on Jun 28, 2022 8:04:43 GMT -8
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 28, 2022 8:11:46 GMT -8
Here's a pretty good shot from the same high angle, though unfortunately not centered over the engine:  Ed |
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Post by middledivision on Jun 28, 2022 8:21:34 GMT -8
The glaring error, on the Santa Fe and D&H versions, is Rapido did not plate the sides, choosing to paint them silver. Totally wrong.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 28, 2022 8:24:56 GMT -8
Rapido apparently 3D scanned the wrecked and rebuilt former ATSF PA-1 that Doyle McCormack has restored in NKP markings. Though some people are not convinced that the front windshield angles and/or tapers in height are correct on Rapido's model, people who work for Rapido claim that they are and have posted as much over on the Model Railroader forums, while at the same time being very critical of the previously released brass models. I myself am not totally convinced and will probably have to see one in person...which may be difficult on arrival as by that time I'm sure the Santa Fe and Rio Grande versions will be hard to find. So I guess it comes down to how well one trusts them. Pre-order slots remain for several PA's, but for how long who knows. John
Scanning a wreck rebuild. What could go wrong?
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Post by Baikal on Jun 28, 2022 8:49:01 GMT -8
Here's 3 shots from high or straight-on.
The windshield in the two shots of ATSF 65 looks completely different, but is not.
MKT 326C
The edges of the windshield openings on Rapido's model are too rounded. Hard to fix that. This plus the thick "glass", which is set too far into the shell, makes the windows look crude. Maybe they got the winshield & nose angles right tho?
The windshield area on the SP model looks better than the ATSF model. |
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Post by westerntrains on Jun 28, 2022 9:48:24 GMT -8
I questioned how well the windows were done on another post, but looking at photo's of the models on Facebook at different angels, they look correct. The choice of angles of the photos make the windows look poorly done. I reserved several SP units based on the photo's I saw on Facebook.
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abm
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Post by abm on Jun 28, 2022 10:17:44 GMT -8
Not in the market for a PA, but... the molded plastic grab irons are a tough pill to swallow, especially since the side door ladder rails literally right next to them are formed wire. I mean you can still see the sprue nubbins on the eyebrow grabs!
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Post by Baikal on Jun 28, 2022 10:29:40 GMT -8
I questioned how well the windows were done on another post, but looking at photo's of the models on Facebook at different angels, they look correct. The choice of angles of the photos make the windows look poorly done. I reserved several SP units based on the photo's I saw on Facebook.
The problem of windshield edges being too rounded + thick set-back glass is not due to angles of photos. But the roof/windshield/nose geometry looks ok to me.
Add the fat grabs and the Rapido ATSF HO scale model looks like N scale.
All roads, all brake cylinders are angled down. Just noticed that.
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Post by lvrr325 on Jun 28, 2022 12:01:29 GMT -8
I think the Santa Fe pic is a bit of an optical illusion, because it is coming forward in the center makes it look like it's curving down more than it actually is.
The two repatriated PAs both rolled on their sides, but not completely over, cabs appeared to be intact in the pre-restoration photos.
I wonder if they will all have the trucks based on the ones they put under these two? IIRC they came from C-liners and are slightly different from original PA trucks.
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Post by theengineshed on Jun 28, 2022 15:34:40 GMT -8
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2022 16:56:27 GMT -8
Is there a side view of the Rapido ATSF PA to be seen so that we can see the difference between the aluminum painted areas and the "stainless" or however they are painting them areas?
Also, in that view of the unit above, there appears to be more damage than some have described. The Santa Fe numberboard housing appears to be damaged. The frame around the left front window has noticeable ripples in it...Just sayin' it's not what I would consider "intact" or "pristine" in the area around the front windows.
The other PA looked a bit better around the front windows. Idk which one Doyle got. They both look so rough that Doyle's crew clearly worked miracles on the NKP unit.
John
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Post by slowfreight on Jun 28, 2022 17:31:38 GMT -8
I think the Santa Fe pic is a bit of an optical illusion, because it is coming forward in the center makes it look like it's curving down more than it actually is. The two repatriated PAs both rolled on their sides, but not completely over, cabs appeared to be intact in the pre-restoration photos. I wonder if they will all have the trucks based on the ones they put under these two? IIRC they came from C-liners and are slightly different from original PA trucks. I was going to ask if anyone could speak to the difference in trucks on the two rebuilds. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2022 18:43:28 GMT -8
Over on the MR forum one guy posted a down-on photo of an MP prototype unit from nearly the same down on-angle as the Santa Fe model, and there are very clearly differences between the prototype and the model windows and window frame. How significant they are to a prospective buyer, well go look for yourselves.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 28, 2022 19:37:11 GMT -8
Over on the MR forum one guy posted a down-on photo of an MP prototype unit from nearly the same down on-angle as the Santa Fe model, and there are very clearly differences between the prototype and the model windows and window frame. How significant they are to a prospective buyer, well go look for yourselves. I just went over there, as you suggest, and found nothing in the one topic on PA's that I investigated. Please supply a link to the particular topic that features the photo you are referring to. I don't feel like wading through all the blather over there just to find your particular example. Ed |
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Post by lvrr325 on Jun 28, 2022 23:10:11 GMT -8
cs.trains.com/mrr/f/88/t/292582.aspx?page=2 A couple links to photos in the first page, down on shots of D&RGW and Santa Fe. Also a few comments on why no one is plating them. The Mopac photo is also here, currently the third post from the bottom, with pictures shown there so it shouldn't be too bad to find. If you look at the model photo, although the windshield seems to curve down at the center note the frame around it doesn't change thickness and the roof is just about flat there. In fact it almost looks too flat. Maybe that's the issue. The "NKP" they scanned was said to be the better of the two and needed no repair, while the other one is getting a donor section to repair it's cab.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2022 5:40:34 GMT -8
Hi Ed--
Apologies for not including the link sooner. lvrr325 is correct. It is still about the 3rd post from the bottom of page 2 of that thread. The person who posted the photos circled areas of the image very neatly and commented on what appear to be differences between the prototype and the model.
John
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 29, 2022 5:47:10 GMT -8
Thanks, guys. Here's the picture without the circles, so you can do your own comparing: www.flickr.com/photos/24333887@N02/52179804986/I see that Paul is now a Rapido employee. He says that plating is just too expensive and too environmentally nasty to do. So fuhgetaboutit. He says the last plating was 8 years ago for the Walthers Superliners and Amfleet. Looking at artwork for Athearn's recent Santa Fe passenger F's, it looks like THEY'RE all plated. For that matter, a friend recently showed me a truck he just bought that was plated, and very nicely done. So no plating on Rapido models! I'll note that the photo also very nicely shows the size of the cast grab-irons. Ed |
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Post by Baikal on Jun 29, 2022 6:44:20 GMT -8
Thanks, guys. Here's the picture without the circles, so you can do your own comparing: www.flickr.com/photos/24333887@N02/52179804986/I see that Paul is now a Rapido employee. He says that plating is just too expensive and too environmentally nasty to do. So fuhgetaboutit. He says the last plating was 8 years ago for the Walthers Superliners and Amfleet. Looking at artwork for Athearn's recent Santa Fe passenger F's, it looks like THEY'RE all plated. For that matter, a friend recently showed me a truck he just bought that was plated, and very nicely done. So no plating on Rapido models! I'll note that the photo also very nicely shows the size of the cast grab-irons. Ed
Everyone who's considering buying one of these models should look at those two photos. The model looks terrible- in multiple ways that would be difficult to fix. Note the crude, toy-like rounded-edge window openings. The uber fat grabs are ridiculous. Compare this to the sharp injection molded stuff military modelers regularily get.
Who cares if Rapido "laser scanned" the model & used a Canadian supercomputer to make the molds when the results look like something from 1972? Intentions are worthless, only results count.
I don't see any value here. No sale.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2022 7:53:04 GMT -8
I do believe both the Athearn Genesis series and Walthers Proto Santa Fe F's--ALL of them--are plated.
Chinese factories caring about the environment? That sounds like something new to me.
Grab irons? Why not simply metal wire and therefore much closer to scale?
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 29, 2022 8:32:40 GMT -8
Grab irons? Why not simply metal wire and therefore much closer to scale? Costs more. Rapido wants to include the "nut-bolt casting", and that would have to be carefully placed or cast on the body. Ed |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2022 8:41:40 GMT -8
I understand it costs more. However, for a company that puts extreme amounts of underbody detail on equipment--that generally can't be seen unless one flips a model upside down...I could easily live with less underbody detail if the visible details were better rendered. I'm sure the Seaboard/SCL/CSX modelers out there would agree with me, but still we are not everybody.
I hope the C30-7 looks better than this in the end.
To me having plastic grabs at this late date is just plain cheap because they are not going to hold up well with handling, or rather not as well as wire. Athearn Genesis does not always bother with the bolt details either, but their grabs being metal seem to hold up better. I'm not really aware of folks complaining about missing bolt detail on grabs, but perhaps some do.
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Post by theengineshed on Jun 29, 2022 8:46:48 GMT -8
One of my standing peeves is the glass prism around the edges of the windows. The Rapido PA is guilty here, but so are many other models. Those grabs are pretty bad too, wire would have been so much better.
They are what they are, so spend your money accordingly. I'd probably have picked up a couple, if they had done them in a KATY scheme.
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Post by cemr5396 on Jun 29, 2022 9:21:22 GMT -8
Chinese factories caring about the environment? That sounds like something new to me. To me this sounds like Rapido/the factory just not wanting to go to the extra effort of meeting whatever regulations are in place there. If everyone else can do it (presumably legally), then there is no good reason why Rapido can't. This is the difference between Rapido and everyone else, as far as I can see it: When Athearn/Tangent/Atlas/ST/whoever else want to make 'item X' they come up with a design or whatever and send it to the factory and say: "MAKE THIS, the way we say to, and if you screw it up we're gonna make you do it again until it is right". When Rapido goes to their factory and says make THIS, the factory goes "actually, we don't really want to do xyz because (insert reason here) so this is how we are gonna do it instead" and Rapido just goes "well that sucks but if you say so..." and that is that. And that is how you end up with units that are not plated when they should be, models with shells that are nearly impossible to remove, etc. etc, and things only being changed or fixed when the modeling community raises a riot over it. (Case in point, the RS11, which had to be retooled for the 2nd run because of how stupid it was designed the first time) |
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Post by fcixdarrell on Jun 29, 2022 11:34:39 GMT -8
Grab irons? Why not simply metal wire and therefore much closer to scale? Costs more. Rapido wants to include the "nut-bolt casting", and that would have to be carefully placed or cast on the body. Ed It wouldn't have cost anything to add the nut-bolt to the nose, however it would have cost something to add the slide for the holes for the wire grabs, or, they would have to create a drill jig and manually drill two holes for each grab, also at a cost. Bent wire grabs might be a little more expensive, per unit than molded grabs, but the price would be comparable between the two. They paid to tool the grabs and probably did more than just one on the mold, or they'd have to run the mold 6 times to get enough for each loco. Each cavity machined adds to the tooling costs. Applying plastic grabs vs metal grabs costs the same. The slide might cost a couple grand up front, spread across whatever timeline Rapido uses for amatorizing their tooling costs. The drill jig would be a few hundred dollars, plus whatever the unit cost per drilled hole, probably less than the cost of the slide. It might have added a couple bucks per unit to do wire grabs with cast-on nut/bolts. Would it be worth it? For finer looking detail? As far as windshield glass goes, why can't they mold it way thinner or as separate thin panes so they don't look like goggles? Your eyes are naturally drawn there (like to human eyes) so since they are a point of attent, more atten should have been applied. The big grabs and thick windshield glass harken the 1970s although most other details look decent (I can't vouch for accuracy though). Darrell |
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