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Post by ssw on Aug 22, 2022 17:43:17 GMT -8
On the Santa Fe, a couple things - is it me or is the NTA FE on the cigar band lower than SA? Also, if the door is a seperate piece, the paint is filling in the gap between the door and the nose on the firemans side - so maybe a primer issue on the door?
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Post by cera2254 on Aug 22, 2022 18:16:10 GMT -8
#78 has been discontinued. I guess Kadee doesn't think there's a need for it. Ed I looked and it has been replaced by the 178 with the whisker. |
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Post by atsf_4 on Aug 23, 2022 5:20:57 GMT -8
Eeeewww horrible nose painting. Glad I didn't order any Santa Fe units. Also that "stainless" finish just isn't. Saw them in person yesterday, but didn't see the nose. Clearly the Overland Models Santa Fe PA's are still better than these. At least with Overland/Ajin they have the stainless steel panels looking like they should.
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Post by NS4122 on Aug 23, 2022 5:59:28 GMT -8
I believe the Kadee #78 scale head coupler was discontinued because it wasn’t a drop-in replacement for the oversize #5. The #78 required a special scale width box (included with the couplers) to accommodate it. At that time, the only manufacturer with a compatible box (later changed to a Kadee compatible) was Atlas. All of the other manufacturers had wide boxes that would take the #5 or a plastic clone. If you wanted to replace your #5’s with a Kadee scale head coupler, you had to rip out the existing box and replace it with the Kadee box. Kadee later came out with scale head couplers that were drop-in replacements for the #5. Today the #78 has been replaced with the #178. Which in reality is a #158 in a redesigned scale width coupler box. #78 has been discontinued. I guess Kadee doesn't think there's a need for it. Ed |
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Post by markfj on Aug 23, 2022 6:37:58 GMT -8
Just for fun and comparison, Rapido and Key imports side by side and prototype photo at the bottom.    Thanks, Mark |
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Post by es80ac on Aug 23, 2022 9:18:13 GMT -8
Looking at the Atsf photos, So is the windshield wipers suppose to be bottom mounted or top mounted? Also why the extra step ladders and the my cables on the Rapido unit? Last but not least, does the number boards look oversized? The number board appears to be a separate added part, unfortunately there is a gap because of it
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Post by atsf_4 on Aug 23, 2022 9:27:42 GMT -8
Looks like bottom mounted on ATSF as delivered version. Don't know if they changed by 1960's late version with mu notches in nose (which is the version Rapido apparently chose for ATSF).
Looks from photo like ATSF Indian Red is off color on Rapido's model. The multiple shades of yellow combined with far too dull side panels are specifically why I said Eeewww up above.
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Post by typhoon on Aug 23, 2022 12:03:06 GMT -8
Looking at the Atsf photos, So is the windshield wipers suppose to be bottom mounted or top mounted? Also why the extra step ladders and the my cables on the Rapido unit? Because engines are modified by the railroads during their service lives. That photo appears to be an as built photo. ![]()  |
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Post by atsf_4 on Aug 23, 2022 16:48:39 GMT -8
Beginning during the very late 50's, around 1959-1960, Santa Fe began cutting the nose mu notches into the front of the nose, and added the step and grab irons up the engineer's side of the nose at about the same time. This is well documented in the various books about Alco PA's and Cynthia Priest's "The Santa Fe Diesel, Volume 1", but most of those books were printed 20+ years ago and are now out of print. Not all units received them at the same time, but it took a little while.
Rapido has chosen not to model the Santa Fe version as delivered, but instead their model clearly represents a Santa Fe 1960's version, also generally the most desirable and hardest to find version in brass (Overland Models/Ajin--three different production runs--first two in the late 1980's/early 1990's and the last run many years later in the 2000's). It was always at least a little bit easier to find the as-delivered versions with the clean nose, and the EMD repowered versions, which can be hard for some to love.
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Post by es80ac on Aug 23, 2022 17:17:57 GMT -8
Ok,the modified version does look more interesting with the additional details. But the added on number board by Rapido still looks odd, it kind ruin the overall smooth look of the PA nose
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Post by wmcbride on Aug 23, 2022 17:27:28 GMT -8
I always try to remember that model photos can be brutal compared to what we "see" on the layout and take that into account.
I have no need for a PA but have had to return some Rapido diesels in the past for poor paint (masking and thickness issues) and have some keepers that I really appreciate.
The "missing" side to the nose door on the Santa Fe unit is not just a camera thing -- it's a layout thing. The ginormous, plastic grabs are also pretty horrible and will look pretty bad on a layout. A lot of things on many models can be "buffed" out by weathering but a lot of things cannot. Not to sound like a Scrooge but expensive things should have better QC (or design). As an example, I have no problems with my Bowser diesels over the last few years. They have been well-tooled, well-built, and well-painted.
As the years have passed, Rapido has gone from a manufacturer from which I preordered to one from whom I will not. For Rapido, I will see how things turn out when they arrive if it's an engine I desire.
Bill McBride
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Post by atsf_4 on Aug 23, 2022 18:54:42 GMT -8
Bill--
I totally agree. I am debating buying just one unit because I used to love Alco PA's, but from what I've seen in the photos and in person yesterday at one dealer, I cannot buy a D&H or ATSF unit.
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Post by lvrr325 on Aug 24, 2022 5:21:33 GMT -8
I can see the "NTA" appears a tad lower - but is it due to the door headlight being too large?
The red appears too pink in that photo
I will note that them doing 1960s era Santa Fe lets them do D&H with little to no changes besides paint.
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Post by Baikal on Aug 24, 2022 7:18:21 GMT -8
On the SP Daylight unit, the "Lettering Gray" (also used on the stripes) is too dark. It should look almost white against the red & orange. It's the same very light gray color used for lettering on the later gray & scarlet units that some people mistake for white. (Toward the very end of the SP some units did get white lettering).
The Daylight Red looks pink-ish, not the dull orangish-red used by SP, New Haven, & Std Oil of NY.
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Post by Baikal on Aug 24, 2022 7:22:03 GMT -8
I can see the "NTA" appears a tad lower - but is it due to the door headlight being too large? The red appears too pink in that photo I will note that them doing 1960s era Santa Fe lets them do D&H with little to no changes besides paint.
Like the Daylight PA-2, the ATSF red does look pink-ish.
I'd like to see the SP & ATSF units side-by-side as the prototype reds are very different.
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Post by lvrr325 on Aug 24, 2022 8:01:56 GMT -8
The contrast between the cab side door grabs and the windshield access grabs is pretty obvious. And the ones on top of the nose also stick out too far.
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Post by middledivision on Aug 24, 2022 8:30:44 GMT -8
Looking at the Atsf photos, So is the windshield wipers suppose to be bottom mounted or top mounted? Also why the extra step ladders and the my cables on the Rapido unit? Because engines are modified by the railroads during their service lives. That photo appears to be an as built photo. ![]() Please note the plating on the side. Missing on the Rapido D&H and Santa Fe PA's. |
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Post by atsf_4 on Aug 24, 2022 11:10:31 GMT -8
Rapido attempted a different shade of silver paint to represent "stainless steel" which is a fail. Also the prototype photo shows the stainless steel fuel tank skirting and the stainless steel rivet strips (which hold the side panels in place), with a thin prototype layer of aluminum paint below the black stripe and above the stainless steel rivet strip at the bottom.
One thing I was never really able to figure out is were the roofs actually stainless steel? Especially in the as delivered photos it appears that they may have been.
In later years, and after WW II when many passenger car roofs on Santa Fe had been painted black, the roofs were then painted aluminum (they were not stripped to bare stainless steel, as they had been etched for painting), and clearly in the late PA era on Santa Fe, the roofs of at least some PA's were painted aluminum. Yet there are other photos where it seems they may have been originally stainless.
The side panels and any other stainless parts could be cleaned to bright stainless with an acid wash, and it seems that at least some Santa Fe equipment got cleaned up in such a manner or just never weathered that badly to begin with.
The lack of a stainless steel finish is why I said I can't buy D&H or ATSF but they will still sell out because of their popularity.
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Post by nstophat on Aug 24, 2022 12:02:15 GMT -8
The contrast between the cab side door grabs and the windshield access grabs is pretty obvious. And the ones on top of the nose also stick out too far. Grab irons should be straight instead of the drop version as well. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 24, 2022 12:09:26 GMT -8
Please note the plating on the side. Missing on the Rapido D&H and Santa Fe PA's. And the upcoming slumbercoach, I suppose. Maybe I should cancel and keep my Walthers plated one. Ed |
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Post by bigblow69 on Aug 24, 2022 15:00:42 GMT -8
I really am not going to attack a manufacturer for giving us a model that is really needed in HO. I purchased a few just because I like the PA. Granted if you look at a model long enough some problems will creep for example thick hand grabs etc. I said it before I'll say it again we are living in the Golden Age of this hobby. You can almost get anything you want if you have the money. Corrections are always made after initial runs and for a rule I don't preorder initial runs. I hope they do UP PA's so I can get a set.
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Post by riogrande on Aug 24, 2022 15:08:27 GMT -8
Please note the plating on the side. Missing on the Rapido D&H and Santa Fe PA's. And the upcoming slumbercoach, I suppose. Maybe I should cancel and keep my Walthers plated one. Ed Here are the slumbercoach features per Rapido website: So it looks like they are supposed to have a stainless-steel finish. I've seen photos of the slumber coach on the San Francisco Zephyr so I'm thinking about getting one of the Rapido. What I really need are the Rapido Budd coaches but I missed them on the last run, but Rapido is allegedly going to run them again, but it will be sometime before they are available again, another year or two. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 24, 2022 16:09:28 GMT -8
Jim, I'll see your: Rapido’s renowned stainless-steel finishand raise you with: Walthers' plated metal finishwww.walthers.com/85-budd-slumbercoach-24-8-sleeper-ready-to-run-plated-metal-finish-chicago-burlington-quincyAll the Walthers plated metal finishes I've worked on were chrome plating over copper plating. I'm a-gettin' the impression that Rapido's renowned stainless-steel finish is what's called "metallic paint". Put another way: if Rapido was doing plating, they surely would have done it on the Santa Fe PA's. Sorta like Athearn did on their Santa Fe F's, ya know? On the other hand, I've bought a fair amount of Rapido's New Haven lightweights, so I DO buy painted rather than plated. I expect New Haven didn't wash their trains very often, so that old stainless glint was long gone. Ed |
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Post by 12bridge on Aug 24, 2022 16:23:09 GMT -8
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Post by atsf_4 on Aug 24, 2022 17:22:11 GMT -8
I really am not going to attack a manufacturer for giving us a model that is really needed in HO. I purchased a few just because I like the PA. Granted if you look at a model long enough some problems will creep for example thick hand grabs etc. I said it before I'll say it again we are living in the Golden Age of this hobby. You can almost get anything you want if you have the money. Corrections are always made after initial runs and for a rule I don't preorder initial runs. I hope they do UP PA's so I can get a set. Uh, so we are just supposed to put up with stuff that is just plain wrong, and put up with screwed up models. I've bought too many Rapido items that were hosed up. I'm NOT having that problem with other manufacturers. I just bought a half dozen diesels from other manufacturers that were darn near perfect right out of the box. I didn't have to fix anything on any of them. That Rapido DRGW PA is hideous in the photo above. I never saw any photo of them having black grab irons on the front, and it was NOT shown or depicted in the colored drawing they put out, so what in bloody h..l are they doing? And you think I should accept that? As far as a model that is really needed in HO, Walthers checked that box with the re-issue of their old Proto PA with upgrades. Oh--and corrections after initial runs--forget about it. Bowser doesn't generally redo the same paint scheme (unless it is PRR or Reading), but does a different paint scheme when or if they re-run a road name. So if you didn't already get the recent Bowser releases of some diesels, you will not be seeing those paint schemes again, and they are gone. Two weeks after being in country the distributors were sold out--which bit me too when I didn't pre-order. Atlas is the same. Research the paint schemes they've offered. In many instances they never do a rerun of the same paint scheme. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 24, 2022 17:23:43 GMT -8
Those black grabs really stand out, I'll say. They do a good job of matching the black lines!
And I see they're dropped, also.
I'm looking forward to seeing one of these where the prototype actually had the dropped grabs. That'll be neat.
Ed
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Post by atsf_4 on Aug 24, 2022 17:37:04 GMT -8
Never saw black grabs on a Grande Gold PA model or otherwise, and they were NOT depicted as black on Rapido's artwork which didn't show the grabs at all (as built configuration?). This is just one of the reasons why I have no trust in them whatsoever. They change crap and do not tell you the prospective buyer.
One distributor had not received their PA's as of this afternoon when my friend ordered me a DRGW. Tomorrow he will change it to NKP because at least they look ok (I saw them in person at another dealer).
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Aug 24, 2022 18:55:40 GMT -8
I can see the "NTA" appears a tad lower - but is it due to the door headlight being too large? The red appears too pink in that photo I will note that them doing 1960s era Santa Fe lets them do D&H with little to no changes besides paint. Like the Daylight PA-2, the ATSF red does look pink-ish. I'd like to see the SP & ATSF units side-by-side as the prototype reds are very different.
The only objective way to compare colors would be to see it sitting in my hand or on a table at noon on a side track next to an actual 1:1 example in freshly unmasked paint just outside the door of the factory paint booth. NOT on an internet photo viewed on a who know how well balanced monitor. Your Pink-ish may well look blaze orange or one of a thousand interpretations you, I or maybe Ed might have… Those number boards sure do have a notable gap, might that be to allow lighting assemblies to function? The closeup photos are brutal. Not in the market for any, 3 or 4 sets of Proto 2000s will serve me fine. |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Aug 24, 2022 19:30:22 GMT -8
Those number boards sure do have a notable gap, might that be to allow lighting assemblies to function? I gotta suspect that the lighting assemblies would function without the "notable gap". Why would you NEED a gap to make the lights function? Ed |
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Post by Baikal on Aug 24, 2022 19:34:55 GMT -8
Never saw black grabs on a Grande Gold PA model or otherwise, and they were NOT depicted as black on Rapido's artwork which didn't show the grabs at all (as built configuration?). This is just one of the reasons why I have no trust in them whatsoever. They change crap and do not tell you the prospective buyer. One distributor had not received their PA's as of this afternoon when my friend ordered me a DRGW. Tomorrow he will change it to NKP because at least they look ok (I saw them in person at another dealer).
Three coats of primer & paint will fix those grabs(?)
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