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Post by lars on Feb 17, 2021 18:54:02 GMT -8
So, one has to ask, why did they bother to contact you for input if the cars were already in final production......? That's got me shaking my head. Regards, Mike MacLatchy Mike, I was going to ask the same question! Why bother to get Tom’s input if nothing could be done with the information. It doesn’t make sense. Too bad Gene Fusco closed Rail Yard Models. He probably could have done this car as a resin kit with photo etched parts, custom decals, and detailed instructions and it would have been stellar. Thanks, Mark It's frustrating to hear manufacturers continuously cite the cost of labor in assembling models as a driver of higher prices, yet not have any real selection of high-detail, pre-painted kits. I would very much like to see some modern equivalents of the Proto 4427 at some sort of price compromise between molded-on detail, low parts count and high detail RTR. You think taking away the cost of assembly for the manufacturer and offer a lower cost but high detail model to the consumer would be a win-win.
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Post by myoungwisc on Feb 17, 2021 19:05:17 GMT -8
Apparently this is a case, as my wife's mother use to say: you get what you are given. "You'll get nothing, and like it!!" -Judge Smails, in "Caddyshack"
One of the best movie scenes/quotes of the last generation...or the generation before last at this point.
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PWRS 5077?
Feb 17, 2021 19:16:02 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by cera2254 on Feb 17, 2021 19:16:02 GMT -8
Lars, my guess is that the reason we haven’t seen any kits like the P2K kits is the same reason that some manufacturers don’t like undecorated units. I’m guessing they simply don’t trust the people that pack them to make sure that everything is there.
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Post by myoungwisc on Feb 17, 2021 19:18:28 GMT -8
It just keeps getting better. I had a less-than-productive conversation with this crew, in person, in Amherst back in 2019. I offered help (art reviews, photos, whatever) after seeing some very marginal samples on display, but the offer went nowhere. After further discussion at the show, I didn't get many warm fuzzies that those running the project were open to input. Two years later, seems that significant issues remain, and it doesn't sound like others had luck either. So here we are.... -Rick Selby This post, in a nutshell, is why this hobby is so frustrating. There are dozens of subject matter experts out there for every railroad that has been in existence for the past 75+ years who are willing, able and offering their knowledge only to get snubbed (for lack of a better term). These individuals can provide critical information and feedback in support of a project before it gets too far down the road. I hate to crap on manufacturers because I realize the investment and passion involved with a product's development, however letting some key folks in on the big secret may avoid a disaster...which based on this thread, appears to be unfolding. These cars have been in the works for years, hard to understand why the input of Rick and others weren't sought or accepted. Imagine an architect constructing a building without consulting a structural engineer - not a recipe for success. There are those manufacturers who continue to thrive in this arena...seems as though they've got it figured out based on how quickly their offerings sell out.
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Post by lars on Feb 17, 2021 21:50:45 GMT -8
Parts packing could be part of it. Some other thoughts are: -Assembly costs may be a lower part of the total cost than we often think -Sales of high end kits could cannibalize sales of RTR -Market is too small to do it -Manufacturers are doing well enough they don’t need to take the risk - if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it
My guess is that something like this would come from a company that is willing to shoot the plastic and do the painting in North America and doesn’t want to mess with a Chinese partner.
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Post by TBird1958 on Feb 17, 2021 22:27:20 GMT -8
For those who want to compare and tally the issues... There are some pretty major detail and dimensional errors on these cars, and that's before we get to the paint and lettering issues. A shame, really... a nice model of the Pullman-Standard 5077 cars is needed. This doesn't appear to be it. -Rick Selby Rick, Nice to see you here, your comments are welcome! Mark Hills
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PWRS 5077?
Feb 17, 2021 22:29:02 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by schroed2 on Feb 17, 2021 22:29:02 GMT -8
Mike, I was going to ask the same question! Why bother to get Tom’s input if nothing could be done with the information. It doesn’t make sense. Too bad Gene Fusco closed Rail Yard Models. He probably could have done this car as a resin kit with photo etched parts, custom decals, and detailed instructions and it would have been stellar. Thanks, Mark It's frustrating to hear manufacturers continuously cite the cost of labor in assembling models as a driver of higher prices, yet not have any real selection of high-detail, pre-painted kits. I would very much like to see some modern equivalents of the Proto 4427 at some sort of price compromise between molded-on detail, low parts count and high detail RTR. You think taking away the cost of assembly for the manufacturer and offer a lower cost but high detail model to the consumer would be a win-win. let me guess...you are NOT talking about the original P2K 4427 kits but about the partly assembled "time saver" version ?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 18, 2021 9:20:44 GMT -8
Well, one manufacturer was asked (not that long ago) about replacing a hopper car kit with a much more highly detailed version, similar to Arrowhead, Tangent, ER hoppers.
Their response was basically: Why? Hoppers are fleet cars. Most people need MANY of them. They don't all need to be highly detailed. Most buyers (of our product line) don't want (to pay for) that level of detail.
There is a market for both the low and high detail cars. The other concern not really voiced (if I recall) by the manufacturer is that they can (still) sell an awful lot of the lesser detailed hopper car kit at a reasonable price point. If they replace it with a multi-hundred part highly detailed model, how many will they sell then? They concluded that it is NOT economically justifiable for them to replace their existing kit (which still sells consistently) with an ultimate detail level model.
Once you sell those one or two runs of a highly detailed (usually rtr) freight car--in many cases, I'm not seeing those cars get rerun, beyond the first couple production runs. Or you are looking at many many years between production runs. ExactRail waffle side PS 5277 boxcars are an example: They were done, many were available for awhile, and now the market gobbled them up and Southern versions sell for a premium price on Ebay, but the other versions are available very cheaply at yesterday's prices. You do not see ER making more of the Southern ones. Some other high end PS 5344 boxcars were done and are still lingering on ExactRail shelves now several years after they were made. Maybe that is because Athearn already offers a lesser detailed version of the same car that many people find to be "decent". In any case as much as I might like the ER version, having bought plenty, they aren't selling very well.
Lesser detailed freight cars, available as kits, sell constantly. The manufacturers can pump out a consistent stream of them, and they sellout. I've seen the shelves go empty of them at one manufacturer, so somebody is buying them.
Arrowhead made a gorgeous H39 hopper car kit. I have 10 of them in 3 roadnames. They also got dumped at 50% OFF the MSRP, and a few are still available on Ebay at the dumped 50% off price. The PC/CR versions are not out yet, and even when they come out now, I don't think I need any more at more of them at $50 per car. I find boxcars and autoracks to be much more interesting at that price point. I won't need more hopper cars; I already have 40 or so including 6 of the new Tangent car.
So I'm one of those people who really enjoys the high end freight cars, yet when I go to the various train stores I visit, they tell me straight up that they don't sell very many. Sure they got the Tangent Chessie hopper in, and it's awesome, but myself and a couple other guys bought all the ones they got, and that is a tiny number compared to all the Atlas, Athearn, and Walthers freight cars that they sell every time I'm in there. Yes, they sell a few high end cars and keep some in inventory, but their inventory also includes a bunch of (previously released) cars that just aren't moving that have sat there for a long while (years). So the average buyer just isn't buying them, not like the Athearn/Atlas/Proto cars or the kits.
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Post by fr8kar on Feb 18, 2021 10:44:15 GMT -8
ExactRail waffle side PS 5277 boxcars are an example: They were done, many were available for awhile, and now the market gobbled them up and Southern versions sell for a premium price on Ebay, but the other versions are available very cheaply at yesterday's prices. You do not see ER making more of the Southern ones. This is stupidity on ExactRail's part. They could do runs of nothing but variations on Southern and Norfolk Southern schemes of this model and sell out for years. No need to bother with the shortline schemes, just Southern and NS.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 18, 2021 11:42:27 GMT -8
Yes, great to see Rick join up here. I remember him way way back from his teen section in MR magazine. This is stupidity on ExactRail's part. They could do runs of nothing but variations on Southern and Norfolk Southern schemes of this model and sell out for years. No need to bother with the shortline schemes, just Southern and NS. Yes. I don't know what the deal is with ExactRail. Maybe whoever (Pestana?), controlled the purse strings has been very stingy on product production past few years. Maybe ExactRail would be a good candidate for another model company to gobble up so many of their nice models can be run again, or good variations like the Souther boxcar. When the Southern waffles were offered the last time, I made sure I picked up a couple as those seemed to sell out and then be hard to find after that, like it is now. Atlas has been like that on some of their boxcars, like the FMC's. They never did do the WP 'as delivered' and the ones with the replaced, different color doors sat unsold for a long time. At least the Atlas is re-running the 5503 FMC 52' boxcars again. I managed to get 2 of the SP but those disappeared very fast. I few were on eBay for silly high prices.
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Post by gevohogger on Feb 18, 2021 12:08:32 GMT -8
ExactRail waffle side PS 5277 boxcars are an example: They were done, many were available for awhile, and now the market gobbled them up and Southern versions sell for a premium price on Ebay, but the other versions are available very cheaply at yesterday's prices. You do not see ER making more of the Southern ones. This is stupidity on ExactRail's part. They could do runs of nothing but variations on Southern and Norfolk Southern schemes of this model and sell out for years. No need to bother with the shortline schemes, just Southern and NS. It is mind-boggling that they don't seem to see this. Not everyone models the Southern, but almost everyone could find a reason to have one of these very fine boxcars on their layout, even if it just for some overhead bridge traffic.
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Post by fr8kar on Feb 18, 2021 12:44:16 GMT -8
This is stupidity on ExactRail's part. They could do runs of nothing but variations on Southern and Norfolk Southern schemes of this model and sell out for years. No need to bother with the shortline schemes, just Southern and NS. It is mind-boggling that they don't seem to see this. Not everyone models the Southern, but almost everyone could find a reason to have one of these very fine boxcars on their layout, even if it just for some overhead bridge traffic. You'd think by now they would have figured out what their hits are. Their trucks? Awesome. Are they available for more than a month at a time? Of course not. Why is that? Because they sell out right away. Southern Pacific G-100-22 gondola? Gone. One run and done. Thrall 2244 gondola? Nope. Evans 4780 covered hopper? Gone. FMC 5327 plug door boxcar? Fat chance. I was really hoping that "major industry announcement" was going to be ScaleTrains acquiring ExactRail, but at this point I'd be happy to have anyone take over, as long as they are interested in producing those models.
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Post by craigz on Feb 18, 2021 12:50:53 GMT -8
This is stupidity on ExactRail's part. They could do runs of nothing but variations on Southern and Norfolk Southern schemes of this model and sell out for years. No need to bother with the shortline schemes, just Southern and NS. It is mind-boggling that they don't seem to see this. Not everyone models the Southern, but almost everyone could find a reason to have one of these very fine boxcars on their layout, even if it just for some overhead bridge traffic. There's an old saw that, 'Every [non unit] train needs a Southern boxcar' and I think that's still true. Wanna talk about a truly signature car...the Southern waffles and of course there's the SCL waffles.
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PWRS 5077?
Feb 18, 2021 12:56:00 GMT -8
via mobile
Post by slowfreight on Feb 18, 2021 12:56:00 GMT -8
It is mind-boggling that they don't seem to see this. Not everyone models the Southern, but almost everyone could find a reason to have one of these very fine boxcars on their layout, even if it just for some overhead bridge traffic. There's an old saw that, 'Every [non unit] train needs a Southern boxcar' and I think that's still true. Wanna talk about a truly signature car...the Southern waffles and of course there's the SCL waffles. Ironically, I need SOU paper box cars and original-scheme CNW 5077s in quantity...both tantalizingly close to available yet still unobtanium.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 18, 2021 13:22:08 GMT -8
I was really hoping that "major industry announcement" was going to be ScaleTrains acquiring ExactRail, but at this point I'd be happy to have anyone take over, as long as they are interested in producing those models. I agree. I would have rather ST take over Exactrail too, for the same reasons. But I guess it came down to the Owner of MTH wanting to retire and cash out. Maybe ER/Pestana not ready yet. But why sit on all those models and only produce a couple 2 or 3 a year. There's an old saw that, 'Every [non unit] train needs a Southern boxcar' and I think that's still true. Wanna talk about a truly signature car...the Southern waffles and of course there's the SCL waffles. Seems true. There the SOU waffles seemed to be fairly frequent flyers in the D&RGW freight trains too.
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Post by delta767332er on Feb 18, 2021 14:08:20 GMT -8
So, has anyone contacted PWRS and let them know? Or are you expecting them to read your comments here? Oh, look! Photos went up waaaaaayyyy back on October 19, 2018 of this very car and none of the eagle eyes here caught the problem, and said something to the folks at PWRS when something could have been done but now pile on the bandwagon. Hmmmmm..... Isn't that your job? And by job, actual paid position/consultant? Stop blaming the consumer for your or your employers error. We are not your beta tester. Amen. This is the exact attitude that we've been blessed with from PWRS/NARC throughout this entire saga. To now arrogantly claim that it is somehow the consumer's fault that these cars frankly suck (in the context of 2021), when much public dialogue about them (including here!!) has been very pessimistic and critical anytime there's been pictures shown along their [long] developmental history is shockingly ridiculous. After the delays, refinements, more delays, much online and in-person feedback met with holier-than-thou arrogance......to come on here and blame the customer speaks ear-ringing volumes. These cars have presented sub-par in every step of the process, both in online pictures, and in person. And there's been continual feedback as such. Met with denial and arrogance. And finally, blame on the customer. Unreal.
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Post by delta767332er on Feb 18, 2021 14:13:39 GMT -8
PWSR did contact me (via this forum by messaging) and asked me about the revised Penn Central boxcar. I replied right back stating that the PC logo was located too high and not quite correct, the PC narrow slanted numbers were not correct and that the PC Green was not correct (I suggested to buy a bottle of Scalecote PC Green and match that). He did not agree and stated that cars where already in final production..... So, one has to ask, why did they bother to contact you for input if the cars were already in final production......? That's got me shaking my head. Regards, Mike MacLatchy Because Dan is the most arrogant man in this hobby and he wants to directly confront/talk to anyone that has anything to say negative about PWRS. Write their sales team an email with a normal customer service question and the standard response is a hijacked message from Dan telling you to call him. He's a piece of work.
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on Feb 18, 2021 14:52:57 GMT -8
That's the issue I'm dealing with right now. I've emailed asking to cancel my order. I was told by Hannah that I can't cancel my order via email and can only do it with a phone call to Dan. No thanks. That's not how this works. I like a written record of transactions like these. They said they've tried calling me multiple times - which they have and I talked to them once and was assured these are the most accurate and best detailed cars on the market. After reviewing the images of the cars he sent me, they are not and I'm not going to spend the time to strip them, reletter them, and fix the various body errors. I just realized that the card I had on file there expired so I believe it'll work itself out because they can't bill me if they don't want to cancel it. I don't plan to order from them ever again. I do have an item in my goodie box there, but at this point it's only $11 and I'll eat it not to deal with them again. Hannah said there no way of even confirming if it's me or if someone is in your email account talking on your behalf. For fraud prevention you need to call Dan and talk to him on the phone. However there is no security that they have for phone calls. They don't ask any information to confirm my identity there so it's laughable. So, one has to ask, why did they bother to contact you for input if the cars were already in final production......? That's got me shaking my head. Regards, Mike MacLatchy Because Dan is the most arrogant man in this hobby and he wants to directly confront/talk to anyone that has anything to say negative about PWRS. Write their sales team an email with a normal customer service question and the standard response is a hijacked message from Dan telling you to call him. He's a piece of work.
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Post by csxt8400 on Feb 18, 2021 15:12:43 GMT -8
That's the issue I'm dealing with right now. I've emailed asking to cancel my order. I was told by Hannah that I can't cancel my order via email and can only do it with a phone call to Dan. No thanks. That's not how this works. I like a written record of transactions like these. They said they've tried calling me multiple times - which they have and I talked to them once and was assured these are the most accurate and best detailed cars on the market. After reviewing the images of the cars he sent me, they are not and I'm not going to spend the time to strip them, reletter them, and fix the various body errors. I just realized that the card I had on file there expired so I believe it'll work itself out because they can't bill me if they don't want to cancel it. I don't plan to order from them ever again. I do have an item in my goodie box there, but at this point it's only $11 and I'll eat it not to deal with them again. Hannah said there no way of even confirming if it's me or if someone is in your email account talking on your behalf. For fraud prevention you need to call Dan and talk to him on the phone. However there is no security that they have for phone calls. They don't ask any information to confirm my identity there so it's laughable. Because Dan is the most arrogant man in this hobby and he wants to directly confront/talk to anyone that has anything to say negative about PWRS. Write their sales team an email with a normal customer service question and the standard response is a hijacked message from Dan telling you to call him. He's a piece of work. I'm getting the same thing. I tried to widdle my order down a bit due to the underwhelming images. I asked to cancel a few cars (mind you, I still was going to accept 9 or 10 cars) and was met with "Why are you canceling last minute? You are responsible for your orders." What a business. I responded with an email explaining why, and that has been met with crickets. Anyone who knows Dan knows he gets back to you very quickly, so to ignore the wishes of the customer and then charge them the full order anyway is pretty piss poor. Never again.
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Post by riogrande on Feb 18, 2021 15:34:36 GMT -8
I just realized that the card I had on file there expired so I believe it'll work itself out because they can't bill me if they don't want to cancel it. I don't plan to order from them ever again. Sounds like that expired Credit Card may be your out or ace in the hole. Also, things don't appear to have changed that much at PWRS since around 10 years ago; but that would make sense if the same guy is running the show. I just took a spin through the website and while there are a small number of cars I might fit into my era, I am not going to bother. The early Railbox was one I might have liked but not with the errors. The website brags 90% of stock is ordered. The owner is probably assuming these are a roaring success. I wonder how many will have buyers remorse. Anyone getting bother from PWRS about their orders, maybe the nuclear option could work. Cancel your card and have your CC company issue you a new card so the old number will be invalid. Maybe you dispute with your CC company. If Dan is going play hardball, there may be remedies.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Feb 18, 2021 16:13:41 GMT -8
Soon, the fanboys and defenders will be here telling us they've never had a problem with PWRS and criticizing the posters above for not simply calling Dan to provide the correct data in the first place.
As well, those who proclaim the hobby is supposed to be fun while simultaneously admonishing rivet counters will pile on as well.
Some will be butt-hurt and de-register from the forum after posting a tirade of their own, complete with awful grammar and spelling.
The joyous party will end with a padlock.
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mpi
Junior Member
Posts: 64
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Post by mpi on Feb 18, 2021 16:53:33 GMT -8
When dealing with PWRS, an old proverb comes to mind. "A fool and his money are soon parted" I haven't done business with them in over 16 years or so. I'm surprised they are still in business
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Post by fr8kar on Feb 18, 2021 19:37:08 GMT -8
Soon, the fanboys and defenders will be here telling us they've never had a problem with PWRS and criticizing the posters above for not simply calling Dan to provide the correct data in the first place. As well, those who proclaim the hobby is supposed to be fun while simultaneously admonishing rivet counters will pile on as well. Some will be butt-hurt and de-register from the forum after posting a tirade of their own, complete with awful grammar and spelling. The joyous party will end with a padlock. This is the most accurate post in this thread.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Feb 18, 2021 20:08:56 GMT -8
Soon, the fanboys and defenders will be here telling us they've never had a problem with PWRS and criticizing the posters above for not simply calling Dan to provide the correct data in the first place. As well, those who proclaim the hobby is supposed to be fun while simultaneously admonishing rivet counters will pile on as well. Some will be butt-hurt and de-register from the forum after posting a tirade of their own, complete with awful grammar and spelling. The joyous party will end with a padlock. This is the most accurate post in this thread. Technically, it "WILL BE" the most accurate post, since it is entirely predicting the future. Ed
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Post by unittrain on Feb 19, 2021 4:17:22 GMT -8
To not be able to get a boxcar accurate such as the lettering correct after investing over 100k is nothing to be conceded about, on the other hand he may figure enough people will buy it so it doesn't hurt to embark on a trolling project aimed at the detail conciouss modelers either way its ignorance plane and simple and fanboys will have something to troll others with. Something other than the model is off about this whole thing customer relations everything. The phone number on the site does say train addiction helpline which could mean he views us modelers as people that need the item no matter what!
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Post by jonklein611 on Feb 19, 2021 4:48:54 GMT -8
I just realized that the card I had on file there expired so I believe it'll work itself out because they can't bill me if they don't want to cancel it. I don't plan to order from them ever again. Sounds like that expired Credit Card may be your out or ace in the hole. Also, things don't appear to have changed that much at PWRS since around 10 years ago; but that would make sense if the same guy is running the show. I just took a spin through the website and while there are a small number of cars I might fit into my era, I am not going to bother. The early Railbox was one I might have liked but not with the errors. The website brags 90% of stock is ordered. The owner is probably assuming these are a roaring success. I wonder how many will have buyers remorse. Anyone getting bother from PWRS about their orders, maybe the nuclear option could work. Cancel your card and have your CC company issue you a new card so the old number will be invalid. Maybe you dispute with your CC company. If Dan is going play hardball, there may be remedies. Most CC's have a really good customer protection policy too. Should be able to refund the charges since you weren't given what you ordered.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Feb 19, 2021 5:05:14 GMT -8
^ Don't assume it will be quite that easy. The CC companies will want to know if you are able to contact the company to discuss it with them and if you are still receiving product. In the case of the product being provided, but the nature of the product itself not being satisfactory, they may tell you to take it up with the company directly. CC issuers aren't always interested in getting involved in these types of disputes.
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Post by markfj on Feb 19, 2021 5:21:27 GMT -8
After reviewing the comments and photos posted here and on the MFCL group, I’ve decide my cars will get repainted. It looks like the bottom is secured to the body with screws so I don’t anticipate many problems getting the cars disassembled. Looking for advice on paint and decals for the PC and RBOX cars. These items are sitting in a shopping cart on eBay and wait for me to complete the transaction. Any comments before I buy? - Tru-Color TCP-081 RBOX Railbox Yellow
- Microscale 87-1291 Railbox RBOX & ABOX
- Microscale 87-1096 Penn Central box cars w/PC-style lettering
These items I already have: - Microscale 87-1095 Penn Central box cars with NYC style numbers (1968-1976)
- Tru-Color TCP -044 PC Green
- Polly Scale F414368 Penn Central Green
- Polly Scale F414370 NYC Jade Green
I want to replicate a “new” or fresh paint look for both cars. Also I like how Tru-Color sprays, but will use Polly Scale if the color match is better for a new paint job. Thanks, Mark
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Post by jonklein611 on Feb 19, 2021 5:32:44 GMT -8
^ Don't assume it will be quite that easy. The CC companies will want to know if you are able to contact the company to discuss it with them and if you are still receiving product. In the case of the product being provided, but the nature of the product itself not being satisfactory, they may tell you to take it up with the company directly. CC issuers aren't always interested in getting involved in these types of disputes. 100% depends on the CC card brand / company. Polices vary and the requirements vary. Some are VERY customer friendly, others not so much. Your results may vary.
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Post by slowfreight on Feb 19, 2021 6:55:52 GMT -8
Soon, the fanboys and defenders will be here telling us they've never had a problem with PWRS and criticizing the posters above for not simply calling Dan to provide the correct data in the first place. As well, those who proclaim the hobby is supposed to be fun while simultaneously admonishing rivet counters will pile on as well. Some will be butt-hurt and de-register from the forum after posting a tirade of their own, complete with awful grammar and spelling. The joyous party will end with a padlock. Except I don't think there *are* any PWRS fanboys.
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