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Post by fishbelly on Aug 27, 2020 4:35:50 GMT -8
EMD handrails are 1.25" diameter. That is 0.01435" diameter in HO scale. Kato handrail pipe is only 0.019" diameter. That makes Kato pipe 0.00465" over sized. Round that up to 0.005" oversize. I would consider that negligable and acceptable over wavy scale handrails. Take some time and remove the very fine mold parting line and you reduce that even more. I would say go with your original thought of using the Kato handrails. GE handrails are 1.25" OD pipe for the horizontal portion of the handrail and 1" rod for the vertical portion up to maybe 2014. Around that time they did away with pipe and began using 1" rod everywhere. EMD has used 1" diameter rod for everything I've measured, from GP30s to SD40-2s to SD70MACs. OH, OK. I got mine from a CNW SD40-2. Maybe it was a piece of replacement pipe. Good information to know. Thanks for the correction. So that makes 1" = 0.0115". THe difference is 0.0075" or 0.008". I would still go with the Kato handrails simply because they stand up straight and the run is straight. BUT, you have to understand also I am very happy with the stock Kto GP35 handrails and they are more oversized. I do not like the current thinking of scale handrails if the method and material to produce them cannot product a straight set. Wavy scale handrails will ruin a model more than a bit oversized and straight. |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 27, 2020 4:43:22 GMT -8
GE handrails are 1.25" OD pipe for the horizontal portion of the handrail and 1" rod for the vertical portion up to maybe 2014. Around that time they did away with pipe and began using 1" rod everywhere. EMD has used 1" diameter rod for everything I've measured, from GP30s to SD40-2s to SD70MACs. OH, OK. I got mine from a CNW SD40-2. Maybe it was a piece of replacement pipe. Good information to know. Thanks for the correction. So that makes 1" = 0.0115". THe difference is 0.0075" or 0.008". I would still go with the Kato handrails simply because they stand up straight and the run is straight. BUT, you have to understand also I am very happy with the stock Kto GP35 handrails and they are more oversized. I do not like the current thinking of scale handrails if the method and material to produce them cannot product a straight set. Wavy scale handrails will ruin a model more than a bit oversized and straight.
Thank you guys for the very informative handrail suggestions and data. I have been considering both sides to this valid debate, along with both brands of handrails in front of me. It's a tough decision but I am leaning towards using the slightly fat Kato parts in order to save all the work of marking, measuring, drilling, filling, sanding, touching up, painting and generally fighting with the Athearn handrails. I do agree they are thinner but the trade off seems to be leaning stanchions and wavy rails. Neither set is perfect and I suppose the only real answer is a Rapido type handrail which seems to have solved all problems. But those are not available for SD40-2s.
It's interesting to me how different the stanchion alignment is on both brands.
So with apologies to Ryan and slowfreight, I think I am presently leaning towards using the fat and straight Kato parts.
Or, how about blue box Athearn metal handrails and stanchions?
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 27, 2020 8:50:31 GMT -8
Everything is back together and dry, ready for mounting back onto chassis.  |
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Post by fr8kar on Aug 27, 2020 10:27:27 GMT -8
Very clever, Manny!
You do your thing with those handrails! I'm just glad to follow along with the build.
Personally I like brass stanchions with phosphor bronze wire, but it's not always possible since I have a limited supply of stanchions. Even that is a compromise since the Smokey Valley stanchions are short in height.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 27, 2020 10:43:05 GMT -8
^ Thanks Ryan!
What is the Tichy part # or scale diameter you like for the railings? How about .015 music wire? I like the stiffness of music wire for this application as the Tichy wire is a bit too soft and easily bent for handrails IMHO.
For the stanchions, I am wondering if these Kaslo etchings I have here might work? It looks like the bottoms would need to be glued to outer sill face.
All just ideas at this point, with strong preference to stock on hand.
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Post by edgecrusher on Aug 27, 2020 11:47:58 GMT -8
It's just my personal preference, but all of the offerings for etched stanchions look far too shallow to me. I'm partial to kato stanchions drilled for brass or bronze wire. But it is a ton of work. I'd honestly say go with whatever will match the rest of your fleet. If you go and build only one unit with "scale" handrails its going to stick out from everything else and look wrong anyway.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 27, 2020 12:23:08 GMT -8
It's just my personal preference, but all of the offerings for etched stanchions look far too shallow to me. I'm partial to kato stanchions drilled for brass or bronze wire. But it is a ton of work. I'd honestly say go with whatever will match the rest of your fleet. If you go and build only one unit with "scale" handrails its going to stick out from everything else and look wrong anyway.
Thanks Evan. I have analyzed 3 different types of handrails here and even tried to mount an etched stanchion to a piece of music wire. 20 minutes, a few curse words, broken pieces and bloody fingers later I decided not to go that route. I am also not willing to drill out stanchion tops as I simply do not have the dexterity or interest level to do that. It would be nice if Bowser offered their SD40-2 handrails separately but who knows if they will align with the Kato. No worries replacing the CDN corner pieces with wire.
Other than the unquestionably-good drive, I still don't get what all the hype over Kato is. This build has had a number of unnecessary and annoying detailing challenges like this. My reason for using this as a starting point was due to the paint job and accurate detailing for the prototype in question. There are also lots of these available on the market, so I can wait for the best deal. Older Athearn runs are generally not very easy to find on ebay or when you do find one the seller is asking like $300US plus GSP and Priority Mail for a sold-out DC engine with no box and missing parts. Even the Kato box is useless for storing and shipping detailed models. </rant off>
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Post by 690 on Aug 27, 2020 14:34:11 GMT -8
The Bowser SD40-2 handrails are appropriate for a Canadian SD40-2, so they wouldn’t work with the Kato model.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 27, 2020 14:37:32 GMT -8
Rear view of chassis with new sideframes. I am quite pleased with the look and yes everything is solid.  |
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Post by Christian on Aug 27, 2020 14:46:52 GMT -8
Other than the unquestionably-good drive, I still don't get what all the hype over Kato is. When it was new to the market it raised the bar. That was many, many years ago. But model railroaders never forget. |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 27, 2020 15:02:43 GMT -8
^ Can you explain to me how (other than the awesome drive) it raised the bar? These came out many years after the Athearn version did they not?
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Post by Christian on Aug 27, 2020 15:42:24 GMT -8
^ Can you explain to me how (other than the awesome drive) it raised the bar? These came out many years after the Athearn version did they not? Details such as the walkway tread, plastic handrails, correct wheelbase, fuel tanks, and so forth. The trucks sucked and the plastic handrails were a work in progress and remain so to this day. Kato had just concluded their arrangement with Atlas and brought that engineering into their own line. American railroad modelers had great hopes. But, it wasn't to be. Atlas went to Hong Kong and the whole hobby changed. |
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Post by fr8kar on Aug 27, 2020 22:42:10 GMT -8
GE handrails are 1.25" OD pipe for the horizontal portion of the handrail and 1" rod for the vertical portion up to maybe 2014. Around that time they did away with pipe and began using 1" rod everywhere. EMD has used 1" diameter rod for everything I've measured, from GP30s to SD40-2s to SD70MACs. OH, OK. I got mine from a CNW SD40-2. Maybe it was a piece of replacement pipe. Good information to know. Thanks for the correction. So that makes 1" = 0.0115". THe difference is 0.0075" or 0.008". I would still go with the Kato handrails simply because they stand up straight and the run is straight. BUT, you have to understand also I am very happy with the stock Kto GP35 handrails and they are more oversized. I do not like the current thinking of scale handrails if the method and material to produce them cannot product a straight set. Wavy scale handrails will ruin a model more than a bit oversized and straight. I stand corrected. I took several measurements years ago and posted my findings on the old protomodeler website, which is unfortunately long gone. My original notes are gone as well. So I measured a few locomotives this afternoon and came up with the following: 1.25" diameter on the EMD locomotives I measured (former BN GP50 and former ATSF SD45-2) and on the vertical portion of the handrails of the GE locomotives I measured (NS 9206 and NS 9135? rebuild cores waiting to get spotted at GE). The horizontal portion of the GE locomotives (again, this is for pre-2014 GE locomotives) is 1.50" diameter. All handrails on 2014+ GE locomotives are the same diameter rod which is 1.25 inches. The pin lifters on all these locomotives are 1" diameter rod, the brake lines between cylinders are 1" OD pipe and the grab irons are 0.75" diameter rod. I apologize for creating any confusion and for incorrectly correcting you, fishbelly! |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 28, 2020 4:49:37 GMT -8
Front view with rebuilt trucks test-fit onto chassis. Note inner step wells were filed back, and edges of sideframes were also filed to allow for proper swing. This was accomplished by a lot of test fitting when sideframes were being prepared. The walkway assembly is just here to show the new sideframes clear the steps -- lots of detail work and weathering to do on this section.  |
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Post by drolsen on Aug 28, 2020 6:46:01 GMT -8
Wow, the new sideframes are an amazing improvement to the Kato model! I've seen people graft rectangular mounting pegs on the back of Athearn sidesframes to fit the Kato trucks, which I'm guessing is how you did it (I may have missed your explanation, though I saw you said you were going to explain it later). I haven't attempted that myself. To be honest, I'm probably going to divest myself of most of my Kato diesels in the near future.
I have lots of mixed feelings about Kato. I grew up spending summers visiting family in Japan, and I started off as an N scale modeler, so I was in heaven over there with all the amazing Japanese models. There were very few U.S. prototype models available in Japan in the '80s, and I personally thought that Tomix (the other major Japanese N scale manufacturer) made better, more realistic-looking models than Kato. Tomix never really seemed to break into the U.S. market. I've seen the occasionally in U.S. hobby shops, but very few and far between, maybe because they never dove into models of U.S. prototypes (that I know of). When I went back to Japan with my family once in college, I made the trek to the Kato store in Tokyo and stared for a long time at an HO CSX SD40 in the display case but just couldn't bring myself to buy it at full Japanese MSRP (I think it was about $140 at the time). While Kato's mechanism was fantastic, their early paint jobs weren't the greatest.
Kato certainly broke ground when they introduced their incredibly smooth-running drives to the U.S. market, but they've sort of stuck to offering a level of detail that - to me - looks like they simply blew up their N scale designs to HO scale and added some separate parts like grab irons and pilot details. They seem to be concerned mostly about offering a smooth-running, reliable operating model (the contact strips on the original SD40-2 not withstanding). I think the Japanese market is mostly interested in taking models out of the box, assembling Kato or Tomix snap track into a tabletop layout, and enjoying running their models. While you see examples of detailed and weathered models in magazines, I think most of the Japanese market just enjoys collecting the models and running them. That's how Kato's HO models come across to me. We've moved to a new level of detail expectations here in the last 15 years, and they're just not interested in trying to keep up with that. That's totally fine with me - the N scale market is huge for them in Japan and the U.S. - but it just means that Kato's models don't really fit my modeling interests anymore and take too much work for me to upgrade them the way I'd like to.
Having said all that, I don't mean to take anything away from this awesome project! I just wanted to share my feelings about the conversation above. I agree that the Kato SD40 really broke ground. The SD40-2 kind of tread over the same ground with minor updates but was already starting to fall behind when it was introduced. This project shows that they have great "bones" but need a bit of work to help them fit in with today's models.
Dave
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Post by riogrande on Aug 28, 2020 7:49:40 GMT -8
I've seen people graft rectangular mounting pegs on the back of Athearn sidesframes to fit the Kato trucks, which I'm guessing is how you did it (I may have missed your explanation, though I saw you said you were going to explain it later). I haven't attempted that myself. To be honest, I'm probably going to divest myself of most of my Kato diesels in the near future. I sold off my few Kato SD40-2's about 6 years ago, which I had bought because BN and UP had pooled them on the D&RGW at times. Back to this project - I've wondered that myself as truck mounting can be brand specific. I'd be interested to see if there were any special considerations to mount Athearn frames to the KATO truck. They do look excellent here! |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 28, 2020 9:05:32 GMT -8
View of completed chassis underside. This will now be set aside for a while as I turn my attention to the shell and the walkway/step section.  |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 28, 2020 13:15:04 GMT -8
Remove unnecessary lettering with comet and toothpick. This method is great for changing out a couple of numbers but I found it too tedious for this much lettering. Stay tuned.  |
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Post by riogrande on Aug 28, 2020 14:28:58 GMT -8
Can you explain the lettering removal? Could be helpful for those of us who are noobs.
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Post by drolsen on Aug 28, 2020 14:46:25 GMT -8
That’s the original lettering removal method I learned for changing a digit in a duplicate car number. You make a paste with Comet and a little water and scrub the lettering with a toothpick. The abrasive in the Comet breaks down the lettering and scrubs it off the base paint. I found that you have to be careful - it’s a fine line between removing just the lettering and starting to scrub through the base paint. Sometimes I would encounter a stubborn part of number and would end up taking off a little of the base color. Usually I would be able to cover it with the replacement number decal. It also buffs the base paint, but applying a clear coat takes care of that.
Dave
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 28, 2020 17:00:04 GMT -8
Another way to remove printed lettering is with solvaset and an eraser. This method was much faster, taking only a matter of seconds to remove large sections. Way better than comet and toothpick in this case. I finished the job after taking this photo, leaving only shiny yellow spots and almost no red bits.  |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 29, 2020 3:18:27 GMT -8
All unnecessary lettering has been removed from cab, sub base and main body shell. Need to carefully consider the order of operations for the next steps given that dullcote, glosscote, weathering, patching and decalling over patch will be involved. Plus a final application of dullcote and weathering before reassembly. I think cemr5396 has the right idea on this; stay tuned.  |
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Post by cemr5396 on Aug 29, 2020 6:06:01 GMT -8
Looks good so far. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished model.
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Post by Christian on Aug 29, 2020 6:14:28 GMT -8
I think cemr5396 has the right idea on this; stay tuned. You mean some weathering first followed by the rest of the list? |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 29, 2020 13:09:15 GMT -8
Right side showing the first stage of hand patching. If you observe prototype photos closely you can see that the CP patch was the 2nd one as they patched over the GATX markings in 1994 which had patched over the UP markings in 1991.  |
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Post by Christian on Aug 29, 2020 14:09:00 GMT -8
Right side showing the first stage of hand patching. If you observe prototype photos closely you can see that the CP patch was the 2nd one as they patched over the GATX markings in 1994 which had patched over the UP markings in 1991. Ah! Now I understand. Sometimes things don't percolate through my gray matter. |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 29, 2020 18:19:22 GMT -8
Left side showing the brighter CP patches. The GATX patches are a different shade of yellow and will be applied at the next stage. Note the rest of the unit (incl the grilles) was very lightly weathered prior to CP patch application.  |
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Post by lvrr325 on Aug 30, 2020 3:13:46 GMT -8
I wonder if you even want to fully remove old lettering for a patch unit? The real deal they just painted over the lettering. For a model I can see taking some of it off both to reduce the thickness of paint and so you don't need 38 coats of yellow to cover the red or black.
Of course it depends on the unit, too, these were neatly done so they'd look halfway decent at least for the GATX patch. It's not like an early Conrail patch where half the paint came back off after a few months.
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 30, 2020 3:19:11 GMT -8
The newest CP patch was just wide enough to accommodate the lettering they used. You can see I am slowly adding small bits of weathering to the grey as I go along. Note too the CP K3H horn has been installed and primed.  |
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Post by sd40dash2 on Aug 30, 2020 7:11:52 GMT -8
The cab interior walls should be painted a uniform colour instead of the factory assortment of oversprays. I have also painted the interior cab seats and control stand black to help elevate this model beyond the toy-like stage. The black seats look good through cab side windows.  |
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