Tom
Full Member
Posts: 229
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Post by Tom on Jul 4, 2014 3:23:33 GMT -8
I wonder what the chances of the rebuilt MN and LIRR Starships (FL9AC) in the future are? That is highly unlikely. They were so different externally that it would require a completely different body.
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Post by riogrande on Jul 4, 2014 4:24:52 GMT -8
I look at Rapido's diesels as a unique type of product - they are selecting prototypes that no one else is likely to touch (with the possible exception of the upcoming F40PH). I'm guessing their runs are smaller than the other major manufacturers, and they are offering pretty unique prototypes that have a die-hard, but small, fan base. But producing quality models of rare prototypes that you're not going to sell in huge numbers (compared to an SD40-2 or GP38-2, for example) isn't going to be cheap. Their pricing seems pretty comparable to Athearn's DD40AX and turbine models - other examples of rare prototypes, but ones that are arguably more popular than the FL9. But if you've been waiting for an FL9 model for most of your life, it's worth it. If you're just looking for another neat diesel to buy, it's probably going to seem pretty expensive. I myself have been waiting for a high-quality Amtrak F40PH most of my life... Dave This is probably the most balanced and sensible commentary about the FL9 announcement I've read. Limited appeal and limited run, thus more expensive but those who really want it will be happy as pigs in mud and the cost will not be a barrier to most of them. Folks who are only casually interested, cost will obviously be a bigger factor. Rapido does not make diesels for people who say, I'll take one of this, 2 of that, 3 of this 2 of that etc., like many we have read about in train forums. Dave, you summed it up well. I too have been waiting for a high quality Amtrak F40PH, which is why I may find a way to afford one if/when Rapido finally offers the US version. Cheers, Jim It's only a matter of time before everyone elses' pricing creeps up to this price point - they're all manufactured in the same place: China. Then again, Rapido has historically gone full-out details wise, so it won't be a generically detailed Intermountain or Atlas model you're spending those dead presidents on. See above comments - I've noticed that Rapido's prices have been above many US makers, but Rapido does seem to make smaller runs over well made/detailed trains of more specialized interested. I don't see every other company matching their prices just for sake of price matching - Rapido does march to a different drum - not really apples compared to apples.
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Post by marknycfan on Jul 4, 2014 4:43:58 GMT -8
It's got the right nose, but it's a little too short, and missing an axle for me. Still a really cool anouncment. Rapido's past work speaks for itself, the DRAWING is wrong, do you think the colors will be as vibrant too? The announcement is hours old, so obviously the actual product that isn't even due for a year must be wrong.....
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Post by slowfreight on Jul 4, 2014 5:45:39 GMT -8
It's got the right nose, but it's a little too short, and missing an axle for me. Still a really cool anouncment. Rapido's past work speaks for itself, the DRAWING is wrong, do you think the colors will be as vibrant too? The announcement is hours old, so obviously the actual product that isn't even due for a year must be wrong..... Don't be dense. He is saying he wants an E8.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 5:46:32 GMT -8
That is one COOL Looking locomotive...I am certainly happy for Paul Cutler!!! The Penn Central unit looks very nice, as well...Kudos to Rapido!!!
That HO scale list of engines "to do" is getting smaller each year. Now, if only Atlas would pony up a "NEW" model!!!
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Post by slowfreight on Jul 4, 2014 5:48:32 GMT -8
I look at Rapido's diesels as a unique type of product - they are selecting prototypes that no one else is likely to touch (with the possible exception of the upcoming F40PH). I'm guessing their runs are smaller than the other major manufacturers, and they are offering pretty unique prototypes that have a die-hard, but small, fan base. But producing quality models of rare prototypes that you're not going to sell in huge numbers (compared to an SD40-2 or GP38-2, for example) isn't going to be cheap. Their pricing seems pretty comparable to Athearn's DD40AX and turbine models - other examples of rare prototypes, but ones that are arguably more popular than the FL9. But if you've been waiting for an FL9 model for most of your life, it's worth it. If you're just looking for another neat diesel to buy, it's probably going to seem pretty expensive. I myself have been waiting for a high-quality Amtrak F40PH most of my life... Dave This is probably the most balanced and sensible commentary about the FL9 announcement I've read. Limited appeal and limited run, thus more expensive but those who really want it will be happy as pigs in mud and the cost will not be a barrier to most of them. Folks who are only casually interested, cost will obviously be a bigger factor. Rapido does not make diesels for people who say, I'll take one of this, 2 of that, 3 of this 2 of that etc., like many we have read about in train forums. Dave, you summed it up well. I too have been waiting for a high quality Amtrak F40PH, which is why I may find a way to afford one if/when Rapido finally offers the US version. Cheers, Jim Agreed on both fronts. And hopefully, Jason will remember that some of us model RTA in baby blue.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 4, 2014 6:17:37 GMT -8
Hmmm. Not sure I get the appeal: Ed
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Post by onequiknova on Jul 4, 2014 6:20:59 GMT -8
Rapido's past work speaks for itself, the DRAWING is wrong, do you think the colors will be as vibrant too? The announcement is hours old, so obviously the actual product that isn't even due for a year must be wrong..... Don't be dense. He is saying he wants an E8. At least someone got it.
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Post by bdhicks on Jul 4, 2014 8:47:44 GMT -8
HOLD UP HOLD UP HOLD UP!! I just got an email from overland Hobbies and I now see that I just CAN'T buy one of these units. The pricing has hit the $350 MSRP point and I just cannot support that for an engine that is not even in my era or road. So I have decided to kindly step away from that purchase in late 2015. The non sound unit was not any better priced either! It was $249 evn though their price is $216. Here is the detail pricing at Overland Hobbies Pricing: FL9, standard DC Rapido/ MLW MSRP $249.95 Overland Hobbies Pre-order price valid through 2/20/15 Any 1-2 std DC units $216.95/ loco Any 3+ standard DC units $210.95/ loco FL9, DCC equipped featuring ESU Loksound RAPIDO/ MLW MSRP $349.95 Overland Hobbies Pre-order price valid through 2/20/15 Any 1-2 DCC/ sound equipped units $299.95/ loco Any 3+ DCC/ sound equipped units $291.95/ loco Rapido's MSRPs are in Canadian dollars, so the DCC/sound equipped version comes out to about $330 USD MSRP
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Post by marknycfan on Jul 4, 2014 9:51:45 GMT -8
Rapido will make them awesome, all types, the paint will be impeccable, the detail like no other, they'll run and sound as good as any I don't care what the price is I'm getting a pair of first gen New Havens.
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 4, 2014 10:42:02 GMT -8
Thanks, Al! Yes, I am extremely happy with the FL9 announcement. If one models the New Haven in 1956 or later, for all intents and purposes, one needs FL9's. Yes, there were only 60 of them, but by comparison, the NH only had 60 DL-109's, 45 RS-3's, 30 GP9's, 15 RS-11's, 17 RS-2's, 27 PA-1's, and 10 CPA-24-5's for diesel passenger service ever. By 1960-61, the DL-109's & CPA-24-5's were all scrapped, the RS-11's were only in freight service, the RS-2's were losing their steam gen.'s (and scrapped by '65), and the PA-1's were mostly in freight service (and scrapped by '65). So in the 1960's, the NH passenger engine roster was the 60 FL9's and then the 45 RS-3's and 30 GP9's (both of which more often rolled freight). As a result, NH FL9's could be found all over the system, from Hyannis on Cape Cod to Pittsfield in Western Mass., and from New York City to Boston. If one had to pick the most "New Haven" of locomotives, the FL9 is "it". Heck, it's the reason why the NHRHTA's logo is two FL9's back to back. It wasn't the best NH loco by any means (and the NH itself used the FL9 for almost all it's advertising after 1956). The RS-3's were the universal, do-it-all loco and the electrics could out do any diesel for performance. But the FL9, for all it's flaws, is uniquely New Haven. It's almost the same for the DL-109 in that it is a signature NH loco. But while other RR's ordered DL-109's, only the NH had FL9's "as new". 12bridge, The "Starships" are almost completely different engines. The roof, sides, and end are completely different. The underframe has totally different details, and even the sideframes would require new tooling. About the only thing that matches the normal FL9 is the nose and pilot. That and there were only 6 of them and the fact they didn't last long (with a bad PR hit, too), and I doubt anyone will be making these. Ed, FYI, the Rapido FL9 has nothing to do with the River Point Station FL9. I last talked to Ron at RPS last month, and he told me he was moving forward with his FL9. That may change with this announcement from Rapido, or it may not. John, The PC modelers can also use their FL9 for plenty of railfan rides. Looking through the "Diesels to Park Avenue" book, the FL9 was a popular railfan engine even in PC black. There's even a shot of one hauling railfans over the Poughkeepsie Bridge. atsfan, Popular in numbers made? Not really. Only 60 made for just the NH. However, they ran for NH, PC, AMTK, MTA, CR, MNCW, ConnDOT, Morristown & Erie, Maine Eastern, Cuyahoga Valley Scenic, and Orford Express (in Canada). And two are still in revenue service (the M-E's) in 2014...58 years after being built. There's not too many locos of any type (steam, diesel, or electric) that can boast that. Also, considering that they were used for the most part in the largest city in the world for well over 40 years means that there might just be some interest in a new model of one. Just consider the brass market. I know that NJ/CB did a run of these in the 1970's, that Overland has done at least a couple runs of them (unpainted in 1993, factory painted in the 2000's), and that NH Terminal in Brandford, CT has been making resin models for years, and I think there's enough evidence of interest. Al, If you think the $350 w/ sound price is too much, Ron at RPS told me it would be $400 for his. Dave, New Haven fans spend money. We may not be the most numerous fans in the USA, but we tend to buy any NH stuff we can find. The NH was only 30th in size among US RR's, yet we fans have been gifted with the I-5, I-4, The Comet, NE-5's, NE-6's, DL-109's in the past 10 years, and now this. That's a high number of almost-only NH products for a RR that's longest freight train run was under 250 miles long and is 45 years gone. steve45, The NYC-painted FL9's are HEP units. That would be in the next run if they have one. Thank you, MoPac1! I'm pleased as Punch. Something about patience being rewarded? Heh. I first got into this hobby seriously when I was 15 and it started with the FL9. It was used on the NH's Public TT's and my dad had saved one. When I wanted to know what hauled passenger trains back then, that's what he showed me. Then he gave me the 25 Anniversary edition of Passenger Train Journal, which featured on the cover an FL9 and was "Dedicated to the Late, Great, New Haven Railroad". Ever since, I've been a fan of the FL9, even when several other people in the NHRHTA (mostly electric fans and ex-employees) grumble about it's short comings. I don't care, I just enjoy the FL9 for what it was. Ed, The appeal is that this is a 5-axle diesel (rare) with 3rd rail shoes (really rare) that were painted in a dead RR's colors 15 years after it died (super rare) and continue to rack up revenue dollars 58 years after being built (um, even more rare). It doesn't hurt that it's a very eye catching paint job, especially when new and clean as in your photo. There's a reason why there was a NH orange boxcar on the Athearn Blue Box lid; because people like bright colors. It has made the NH even more popular in death than it probably ever was in life.
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Post by marknycfan on Jul 4, 2014 12:18:37 GMT -8
I knew Paul could fill in all the blanks, once again I'm glad they are being made, I know I'll get a pair and friends of mine will get several, PC, Conrail, Metro-North...One friend plans on getting 6 of them!
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Post by rapidotrains on Jul 4, 2014 13:00:52 GMT -8
I knew Paul could fill in all the blanks, once again I'm glad they are being made, I know I'll get a pair and friends of mine will get several, PC, Conrail, Metro-North...One friend plans on getting 6 of them! Tell him he should get them ALL with sound..... -Jason
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Post by marknycfan on Jul 4, 2014 13:13:07 GMT -8
I knew Paul could fill in all the blanks, once again I'm glad they are being made, I know I'll get a pair and friends of mine will get several, PC, Conrail, Metro-North...One friend plans on getting 6 of them! Tell him he should get them ALL with sound..... -Jason He plans on it Jason!
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 4, 2014 14:00:51 GMT -8
In for a pair in beautiful PC black
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Post by carrman on Jul 4, 2014 15:14:41 GMT -8
Ya done did good Jason. I hope you sell the hell out of these and the GMD1's, so that you eventually have the capital to produce something I can use.....;-)
Dave
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Post by sd80macs on Jul 4, 2014 15:49:49 GMT -8
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Post by sd80mac on Jul 4, 2014 17:17:22 GMT -8
Jason or anyone else, will the Amtrak Phase III versions have ditch lights or no?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 17:21:09 GMT -8
What is a "Starship" FL9? A little help please.
I don't know a lot about the FL9's except they had third rail capabilities.
Did they shut down the prime mover when they went to third rail operation? If so, will that sound be included in the Rapido FL9?
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Jul 4, 2014 17:35:49 GMT -8
MSRP of $350 is all I see. $350 like it is all good. No it's not all good.
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Post by marknycfan on Jul 4, 2014 17:51:51 GMT -8
MSRP of $350 is all I see. $350 like it is all good. No it's not all good. I thought they'd be more, $400- with sound; all new and unique tooling, no one has to buy any of this stuff, it is all purely frivolous. I'd never tell anyone the Alco C430 were not worth the money, any of the Genesis items that keep coming out with higher prices too. Buy what you can and be happy with it. The brass imports w/o DCC/Sound are about $800- each so get a pair of these with sound I'd expect MBK will have them for about $300- if not a little less.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jul 4, 2014 18:14:16 GMT -8
The "Starships" are almost completely different engines. The roof, sides, and end are completely different. The underframe has totally different details, and even the sideframes would require new tooling. About the only thing that matches the normal FL9 is the nose and pilot. That and there were only 6 of them and the fact they didn't last long (with a bad PR hit, too), and I doubt anyone will be making these. Found photos of the "Starships". Wow, they really are "custom".
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Post by Judge Doom on Jul 4, 2014 19:03:45 GMT -8
MSRP of $350 is all I see. $350 like it is all good. No it's not all good. Sell an Overland SD70 or two, you'll be able to afford some easily
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Post by drolsen on Jul 4, 2014 20:38:32 GMT -8
Here are some pics I took of some in CT and MA in 1999. Thanks for sharing those photos. Were the Amtrak units still in service at that point? I was under the impression that they were retired by 1997 or so. I wouldn't mind an excuse to have one if they were still in service in my 1998 modeling era. Dave
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Post by MONSTERRAILROAD on Jul 4, 2014 21:40:57 GMT -8
MSRP of $350 is all I see. $350 like it is all good. No it's not all good. Sell an Overland SD70 or two, you'll be able to afford some easily LOL Good point! You got me. Well the biggest difference is one thing called LAYAWAY. I use it to buy those OMI SD70ACe & SD70M's. Maybe with the way the plastic engine prices are rising month by month they need to REALLY and HONESTLY start offering that same service so people can afford those engines. Hey if Rapido offered layaway on this engine I may be able to pay one off in the next year when they are released. I remind everyone all the time that when I make a new Overland models purchase it is highly likely that I used the layaway service to afford them. I find an engine, contact the seller or business and ask if they will take 3 payments for the model. Then I pay the first payment that day and the next two on the dates I determine with the sellers.
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Post by thb401 on Jul 5, 2014 0:42:48 GMT -8
Great to see another. "They will never make that one in plastic". Getting done. And done by a great company. That gives a damn. Way to go Rapido! Bill
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 5, 2014 8:16:59 GMT -8
sd80macs, I think your first pic is in Rhode Island. The State flag above the 485 is white with a blue & gold symbol, and that does apply to both Mass. and RI, but these Amtrak FL9's were assigned to Providence as MOW & back-up power at the very end of their Amtrak careers (note the lack of 3rd rail shoes). That, and it doesn't look like anyplace in Boston. sd80mac, No Amtrak FL9 ever had ditchlights. The last three ex-Amtrak FL9's have them now, but that's because the Morristown & Erie put them on. If you look at the pictures posted by sd80macs, you'll see that in 1999 they don't have ditchlights (or 3rd rail shoes)...and this was their last assignment for Amtrak before being sold to M&E. It's weird, because with all the rebuildings Amtrak put them through you'd think ditchlights would be in the mix, but they didn't get 'em. Jim, A "Starship" FL9 is actually called an "FL9AC". Metro-North and the Long Island RR decided to try to "modernize" the FL9 concept without buying brand new locos. The FL9AC's had dual-mode AC operation, computer assisted throttle & braking with desktop control stand, automatic blending of friction & dynamic braking, dynamic braking to a standstill that can go to regeneration into 3rd rail or into the HEP, anti-wheel slip ability, AC traction motors, solid state electronics, computer sensing of faults & fast circuit breakers, a solid state inverter for HEP and a rotary air compressor. But the major change was the replacement of the 1750 or 1800Hp EMD 567 with a modern 2800HP EMD 710. The FL9AC's never got all the bugs worked out of them, and when GE came out with the Genesis DM's, it was over pretty quickly. Yes, when they went to 3rd rail operation at Woodlawn, NY, they shut down the diesel. However, they had a built-in block heater that worked off the 3rd rail power so that the diesel could be kept warm and ready to start at a moment's notice. And, when in GCT and they got stuck in a gap (and they didn't have the roof pan), they would fire up the diesel rather than wait for a tow. This did not make GCT a happy place to be. Al, Put it this way... The last brass run of FL9's from Overland were $750, IIRC. And they didn't have sound/DCC. Or even a DCC plug. Dave, Were the Amtrak FL9's still in service in 1999? Yes and no. They were in Providence's Northrup Ave. Yard for MOW purposes, but would be called out to rescue a stranded train on occasion.
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Post by sd80macs on Jul 5, 2014 8:20:07 GMT -8
Here are some pics I took of some in CT and MA in 1999. Thanks for sharing those photos. Were the Amtrak units still in service at that point? I was under the impression that they were retired by 1997 or so. I wouldn't mind an excuse to have one if they were still in service in my 1998 modeling era. Dave In pic of the Amtrak units on 448 in Springfield MA I am not sure where they were going but they were heading towards Boston, the pic of the same Amtrak units in New Haven they were running. But it looks like the 3rd rail shoes were removed from them though.
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Post by sd80macs on Jul 5, 2014 8:22:41 GMT -8
sd80macs, I think your first pic is in Rhode Island. The State flag above the 485 is white with a blue & gold symbol, and that does apply to both Mass. and RI, but these Amtrak FL9's were assigned to Providence as MOW & back-up power at the very end of their Amtrak careers (note the lack of 3rd rail shoes). That, and it doesn't look like anyplace in Boston. Dave, Were the Amtrak FL9's still in service in 1999? Yes and no. They were in Providence's Northrup Ave. Yard for MOW purposes, but would be called out to rescue a stranded train on occasion. The pics I took of the Amtrak units were in Springfield MA on 448, the pic of them running was in New Haven, CT. The NYC FL9 was in Bridgeport yard and the CDOT FL9 was in West Springfield, MA at the CR yard.
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Post by drolsen on Jul 5, 2014 8:47:09 GMT -8
Paul and Mark - Thanks for the feedback. Since I model 1998, I can stretch things and justify (to myself) buying one FL9, even though I'm sure they never made it down to the Baltimore / DC area in that time period. As long as they were still in service!
I think it's really interesting how they applied the Phase III stripes at different heights on those two units. That's the kind of attention to detail that I could see Rapido including if they offered those numbers.
Dave
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