|
Post by sd80macs on Jul 5, 2014 10:02:28 GMT -8
Paul and Mark - Thanks for the feedback. Since I model 1998, I can stretch things and justify (to myself) buying one FL9, even though I'm sure they never made it down to the Baltimore / DC area in that time period. As long as they were still in service! I think it's really interesting how they applied the Phase III stripes at different heights on those two units. That's the kind of attention to detail that I could see Rapido including if they offered those numbers. Dave Its not only the stripes that are off, the black is at different heights, look at Number 8 on the 485, the black on the rear end is also different on each unit, the rear side steps too are different from say the CDOT unit .
|
|
|
Post by Amboy Secondary on Jul 5, 2014 17:02:16 GMT -8
Paul and Mark - Thanks for the feedback. Since I model 1998, I can stretch things and justify (to myself) buying one FL9, even though I'm sure they never made it down to the Baltimore / DC area in that time period. As long as they were still in service! I think it's really interesting how they applied the Phase III stripes at different heights on those two units. That's the kind of attention to detail that I could see Rapido including if they offered those numbers. Dave Dave, From memory, FL9s did occasionally end up in Penn Station, NYC while in NH service........although the 3rd rail pickup shoes were supposedly incompatible with PRR/LIRR's third rail. I also know of one test train during the PC era, to determine feasibility of running them on Washington - Boston through trains. Results = not really feasible. There were a pair at Wilmington Locomotive Shop in April 1998. I don't recall if they still had third rail shoes. They were in service doing something.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 6, 2014 8:09:23 GMT -8
wjli26, Yes, FL9's did go to Penn Station frequently in NH days. By the end of 1961, the only NH passenger electrics left were the 10 EP-5's. Even in those days of diminishing ridership, I think there were too many trains on the timetable to Penn Station for the EP-5's to handle all of it by themselves.
And I've been told that FL9's could drop their 3rd rail shoes on top of the PRR third rail to power up if they had to.
|
|
|
Post by rails4dmv on Jul 6, 2014 8:48:34 GMT -8
About time!!! Thank you Jason for stepping up to the plate to do these. I for one would like to get a pair, since they mostly ran in pairs, and I hope down the road some dummies will be in the future as $500-600 for a possible pair is steep!!
I'm glad though that's one off my bucket list....Now if we could only get someone to make upgraded Metro North & Conn DOT Horizon passenger cars to go with the new FL9's....hint hint.
One thing that's slightly off, and this is no disrespect to Rapido as I'm sure the FL9 will be a homerun and a definite purchase that I will be making, ....why did it take a Canadian company, which is fairly new compared to the big guys, (Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann, Walthers) & headquartered in the US, is able to go out and produce a highly requested & sought after U.S. built locomotive that ran on northeast railroads for decades??
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 6, 2014 14:04:46 GMT -8
rails4dmv, Part of the problem has been the years-old announcement of the River Point Station model. This project has been in the works for a decade, IIRC. I feel bad for Ron of RPS because he's been snake bit at every turn trying to get these models done, but when I approached Athearn about doing an FL9 like they did their FP7, they said, "Isn't someone already doing that?" (referring to the RPS model). They weren't really into it because RPS was always *thisclose* to releasing it...and then the Chinese company RPS was using went out of business, or Proto 2000 stopped making PA-1 trucks, or the Chinese doubled their asking price at the last minute, etc. Atlas would have been a good choice since as a New Jersey company, they make more Eastern US models like the AEM-7 and ALP-44. They've also been very good to us NH fans since the 1980's. But due to their own issues in the past several years, they haven't been able to get old stock out the door, let alone all new tooling. Walthers/Proto won't touch the FL9 because they are only after mass production models. Bachmann Spectrum could have done it. They did the EF-4 (the E-33 to the heathens), but it seems they are concentrating on mass production and low cost models (GP7, RS-3, S-2, 2-6-0, etc.). Bowser/Stewart would have been a good choice since they do plenty of F-units already, but they went with the C-430 instead. Intermountain also does plenty of F-units, and if Marty McQuirk (a NH fan) still worked for them, maybe it would have happened. Instead they went with U18B's and Cab Forwards. I am glad that Rapido is doing the FL9. It will be the best model they can make, which as we all know is darn great. What will be weird is seeing the NH ones in those CN-like Rapido boxes. Almost the same colors...but long stripes instead of diagonal slashes? Sort of like wearing a plaid shirt with pin stripe pants.
|
|
|
Post by TBird1958 on Jul 6, 2014 15:28:01 GMT -8
I'd say we're lucky Rapido is taking it on, it'll be the definitive model, better than brass with a lot of attention to the details that matter - Thank god Bachmann isn't making it!
|
|
|
Post by rails4dmv on Jul 6, 2014 19:27:49 GMT -8
rails4dmv, Part of the problem has been the years-old announcement of the River Point Station model. This project has been in the works for a decade, IIRC. I feel bad for Ron of RPS because he's been snake bit at every turn trying to get these models done, but when I approached Athearn about doing an FL9 like they did their FP7, they said, "Isn't someone already doing that?" (referring to the RPS model). They weren't really into it because RPS was always *thisclose* to releasing it...and then the Chinese company RPS was using went out of business, or Proto 2000 stopped making PA-1 trucks, or the Chinese doubled their asking price at the last minute, etc. Atlas would have been a good choice since as a New Jersey company, they make more Eastern US models like the AEM-7 and ALP-44. They've also been very good to us NH fans since the 1980's. But due to their own issues in the past several years, they haven't been able to get old stock out the door, let alone all new tooling. Walthers/Proto won't touch the FL9 because they are only after mass production models. Bachmann Spectrum could have done it. They did the EF-4 (the E-33 to the heathens), but it seems they are concentrating on mass production and low cost models (GP7, RS-3, S-2, 2-6-0, etc.). Bowser/Stewart would have been a good choice since they do plenty of F-units already, but they went with the C-430 instead. Intermountain also does plenty of F-units, and if Marty McQuirk (a NH fan) still worked for them, maybe it would have happened. Instead they went with U18B's and Cab Forwards. I am glad that Rapido is doing the FL9. It will be the best model they can make, which as we all know is darn great. What will be weird is seeing the NH ones in those CN-like Rapido boxes. Almost the same colors...but long stripes instead of diagonal slashes? Sort of like wearing a plaid shirt with pin stripe pants. What I'm also curious to see after Rapido produces their FL9, how many manufacturers will all of a sudden pop up, mass produce and flood the market with the FL9, like the F7.
|
|
|
Post by Judge Doom on Jul 7, 2014 12:35:06 GMT -8
What I'm also curious to see after Rapido produces their FL9, how many manufacturers will all of a sudden pop up, mass produce and flood the market with the FL9, like the F7. Well, how many different offerings are even viable until the market is saturated and demand falls off the chart? My guess: one high-end one now that it's coming out, and possibly one low-end model. Once there's one really good FL9 on the market widely available, I can't see anyone else doing up their own, unless they plan to compete on (lower) price at the cost of details/features. Nobody's jumping to offer more DDA40X's, U50's, C630M's or GMD1's aside from what's already on the market (previous high-priced brass runs, toy-train-like models if any, and the recent good-quality releases from a sole manufacturer). A Bachmann FL9 might sell as a "fully-loaded stripped down" model (low level of detail + sound/DCC, $89-or-something street price).
|
|
|
Post by carrman on Jul 7, 2014 14:36:45 GMT -8
Bachmann Spectrum could have done it. They did the EF-4 (the E-33 to the heathens), but it seems they are concentrating on mass production and low cost models (GP7, RS-3, S-2, 2-6-0, etc.). EL-C(EF-4 to the great unwashed) Dave
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2014 16:24:17 GMT -8
Well, here's to Rapido knocking this one out of the part...especially for dedicated modelers like Paul! I know the feeling (like when we got the GP15-1 from Athearn Genesis)...so I think it's great to "spread the joy around"...
Kudos again to Rapido and Jason!
|
|
|
Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 8, 2014 6:37:47 GMT -8
I was so thrilled when I heard about the FL9 and am looking forward to it! We know that the overall quality is going to be top notch. Just assuming, but I'm very certain that Paul Cutler, Rick Abramson, and the rest of the good guys at the New Haven Railroad Historical and Technical Association either have been or will be contributing valuable data to Rapido for the production of this model. I'm glad that the first run will be in the version that I saw as a kid. The Rapido Osgood Bradley coaches will complement the FL9 model nicely, however, since no one has produced the appropriate plastic fluted ss Pullman Standard units, I'm now motivated to get back to working on my 1970s set of E&B Valley PS kits (photo below) that I obtained years ago. I got as far as paint stripping them and received excellent tips from Paul for upgrading their appearance, but I stopped working on them to focus on my SCL projects. Although very crude by current standards, with some extra work they can be tweaked to look like "decent" New Haven 8600 series coaches: ------------------------------------------------------------- Ed, thanks for posting the photo below. Irony for me is the EP5 in the background! Both, EP5s and FL9s breezed by my parents NY City apartment back in the mid to late 1960s hauling New Haven varnish (although by then those locomotives did appear a bit "rough"). How can you not get the appeal? (Unless you were joking). The McGinnis paint scheme really stands out (then and now), especially when compared to the more conservative New York Central Black "Cigar Band" and Pennsylvania Brunswick Green paint schemes of the 50s-60s. Hmmm. Not sure I get the appeal: Ed
|
|
|
Post by slowfreight on Jul 8, 2014 9:07:04 GMT -8
One thing that's slightly off, and this is no disrespect to Rapido as I'm sure the FL9 will be a homerun and a definite purchase that I will be making, ....why did it take a Canadian company, which is fairly new compared to the big guys, (Atlas, Athearn, Bachmann, Walthers) & headquartered in the US, is able to go out and produce a highly requested & sought after U.S. built locomotive that ran on northeast railroads for decades?? Because every time you ask a model manufacturer to make something that they wouldn't model themselves, they'll tell you it's "too regional." In this era of being able to take a digital model and have a computer sink the molds, model manufacturing has really changed. Compared to what ol' Irv had to do to make the GP38-2 pay off, you can actually profit off the investment ($250k+/-) for a model with more limited appeal on 1 or 2 production runs. But methinks some of the old guard didn't catch on like Athearn and Rapido and were afraid to take the risk. I'm still amazed that I bought RTR GP15's as nice as Genesis, and it didn't wear many more paint schemes than the FL9. Now my biggest challenge is resisting the urge to buy all these oddball beauties like the FL9 and C430 as I save up for heavy hitters that I really need (well, want, but you get the picture). 'Course, how does that explain my BCR C630?
|
|
|
Post by rockisland652 on Jul 8, 2014 9:15:28 GMT -8
Great to see another. "They will never make that one in plastic". Getting done. And done by a great company. That gives a damn. Way to go Rapido! Bill Mr. C415, your table is set.
|
|
|
Post by enginseer on Jul 8, 2014 10:12:22 GMT -8
I'll pick one up because of my past experience with a good friends Rapido's.
While I'm more of an "E-8" man (as far as "old" loco's are concerned), I like the lines of the locomotive and its longevity.
I hope my purchase will keep Rapido making quality loco's and perhaps, with enough support from the masses, they'll be more apt to produce additional engines that are more suited to my timeframe.
When a company makes a slick product, I support them as much as logic (and my wallet) will allow.
|
|
|
Post by slowfreight on Jul 8, 2014 11:33:44 GMT -8
Mr. C415, your table is set. A Genesis / Rapido quality HO scale C-415 will be a huge home run. It would generate many more sales than the FL9, which is no slouch. I'd make a friendly wager that the FL9 would still win. After all, it's about the only F unit that Amtrak really used for any length of time. And who doesn't like F units? (That's rhetorical...please don't feel the need to answer from the peanut gallery.)
|
|
|
Post by carrman on Jul 8, 2014 12:32:09 GMT -8
But a C415 would have the whole magical "Southern Pacific" thing going for it....;-)
Dave
|
|
|
Post by alcoc430 on Jul 8, 2014 14:25:30 GMT -8
Mr. C415, your table is set. A Genesis / Rapido quality HO scale C-415 will be a huge home run. It would generate many more sales than the FL9, which is no slouch. SP/RI/BN versus NH/PC/CR/MNRR/ME/Amtrak (with/without NYC & PRR) that would be a good poll. C415 may still win since I (as a CR modeler) would probably buy a ALCO C415 as well, not sure if it will go the other way with SP/RI/BN modelers buying a FL9.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 8, 2014 16:03:38 GMT -8
carrman, Touche! But if I called the EL-C's, no one would know what that is either since Bachmann calls them E-33's. geodyssey, The FL9 may be an oddity, but it is a long lived one that happened to go through the most densely populated area of the USA, connecting the USA's largest city with three State capitals. I reckon that more people saw an FL9 on a daily basis than one might think (certainly more than saw a C-415). Better yet, nothing has really come along and replaced the NH in the hearts and minds of Southern New England railfans. The old Class I's get a lot more attention here than modern RR's by far. And SP is the No. 1 most popular US RR? Um, nope, I don't think so. I don't even like 'em, but even I think UP has more fans than anyone else. MoPac1, We NH fans have been really getting spoiled in the past 10 to 15 years. FA's, PA's, CPA24-5's, RS-2's, RS-3's, RS-11's, EF-4's, RS-1's, S-2's, S-1's, DL-109's, "The Comet", HH660's, NH-ized C-425's, U25B's, I-5's, I-4's, R-1's, Y-3's, NE-5's, NE-6's, Osgood Bradley coaches & smokers, scale-length RDC's, etc., and now the FL9? For a 24-year collector of NH models, it's been practically a cornucopia of NH delights. It's getting to the point where a NH fan can almost model the entire motive power roster going back to the end of steam. I'm in New Haven heaven! Antonio, It's been described that the New Haven had "Class"...the self-titled, "Aristocrat of New England Transportation". Just recall the NH conductor in "The Out of Towners". It's just that they ran out of money by 1961 and the whole thing went down the tubes. By 1969, the RR was in terrible shape.
|
|
|
Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 8, 2014 20:57:28 GMT -8
Geodyssey, My off the cuff reaction was that UP is more popular than SP ("...but even I think UP has more fans than anyone else."), mainly because they've never changed names. A "UP Fan" covers every year from 1869 to today. UP steam fans and UP SD70ACe & Gevo fans model the same road. One can't say that about any other Class I except KCS. A Santa Fe steam fan does not model BNSF, for example.
I personally don't think Athearn sells SP more than any other road, and I know we'll never get that info. Production numbers are the number one highest rated secret in the industry. You can get new product knowledge months in advance if you know the right people, but they'll never tell you how many they make or how many they sell. All we can do is look at how many times it's been run and in what road names and road numbers it's been run in.
A couple years ago in July, 2012, I pulled all the production data from Athearn's website and compiled it into Excel. I have the types of engines made, what road names they were made in, and how many loco numbers they did. Now we don't know if Athearn made 100 or 1,000 or 10,000 for one road name or the other, but it's somewhat illuminating to what Athearn sells more of if they keep re-running the same roads with new numbers over and over again. I mean they wouldn't keep pumping out stuff that doesn't sell.
Using this data, the top 5 most produced railroads by Athearn from 1999 to 2012 are: 237 ATSF 187 UP 158 SP 137 CSX 83 CR
I did the same thing for Atlas at the same time: 127 ATSF 110 CSX 110 UP 102 CR 70 SP
Clearly, ATSF has been the most popular road name to make models for in the 21st Century with both Athearn & Atlas. That's not to say they sold the most, but when these two manufacturers make over 60 more loco numbers for ATSF than the next highest with UP (and 140 more than SP), that says something to me.
And while I respect the work you put into your poll, you only had 66 responses. Last I heard, there's supposedly 250,000 model railroaders in the US. Sixty-Six is a really small sample size. There are 70 members in my RR club right now, and we only have one SP modeler. The No. 1 most popular RR in our club right now is CNW, but that's only because it all belongs to one guy who owns a hobby shop. He just buys everything CNW that comes out. The next most popular RR's are Maine Central, Boston & Maine, and New Haven, but then we are a Boston-area club.
The only way to get real poll numbers is to get a hold of the mailing lists of MR, RMC, MRN and all the rest of the magazines, including the digital ones. I would also poll every model railroad club you can find, as well as e-mail lists, newsgroups, web forums, etc. If you can get ~10,000 replies, now you're really talking.
|
|
|
Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 8, 2014 21:53:10 GMT -8
Looking at Paul's 5 roads, a problem I see is that CSX and CR are latecomers. Or, conversely, ATSF and SP are early leavers. So, there could be a lack of "breadth" for all but UP.
That said, it is quite interesting to thrash out the most popular roads. And the second. And the third...
For me, as a western modeler, the attraction for the NH FL9's is that they are just absolutely way cool (for you older folks). It's just a visceral thing. I only wish that my attraction didn't represent an expense of $1200 (2 sound locos plus the trailing passenger cars). That's a lot for viscera.
And another problem: I kinda don't think that I can run only the Osgood's. I sorta see the Merchants Lt'd, here. I am every so slightly anxious about River Point producing the various cars to go behind the super-wonderful locos.
Ed
|
|
|
Post by John Sheridan on Jul 9, 2014 5:47:38 GMT -8
We NH fans have been really getting spoiled in the past 10 to 15 years. FA's, PA's, CPA24-5's, RS-2's, RS-3's, RS-11's, EF-4's, RS-1's, S-2's, S-1's, DL-109's, "The Comet", HH660's, NH-ized C-425's, U25B's, I-5's, I-4's, R-1's, Y-3's, NE-5's, NE-6's, Osgood Bradley coaches & smokers, scale-length RDC's, etc., and now the FL9? For a 24-year collector of NH models, it's been practically a cornucopia of NH delights. It's getting to the point where a NH fan can almost model the entire motive power roster going back to the end of steam. I'm in New Haven heaven! Hmmm, it's as if there is someone (or some thing) quietly guiding model manufacturers to produce NH prototypes!
|
|
Tom
Full Member
Posts: 229
|
Post by Tom on Jul 9, 2014 6:11:47 GMT -8
A Genesis / Rapido quality HO scale C-415 will be a huge home run. It would generate many more sales than the FL9, which is no slouch. I'd have to respectfully disagree on that one. The regions that the various locomotives traveled are much more densely populated, resulting in more people seeing them, purchasing them, etc. Also, the DL-109 was the greatest example of "we might only sell a few of the New Haven ones." Not so much. The rabid New Haven modelers bought the first run, and second run of them rather quickly. The other roads all sat on the shelf. We're on run ?.. 4? and they're still selling them.
|
|
Tom
Full Member
Posts: 229
|
Post by Tom on Jul 9, 2014 6:12:58 GMT -8
It's already been done, the C-415 won handily: "Most Wanted Locomotive Survey 2013" "https://db.tt/2yqlMPWD" Tied for 2nd place was the C-415 with 33 votes. The FL9 was in 19th place with 10 votes, missing the cutoff for inclusion in the summary. There were only 186 people polled in the survey?...
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 6:54:12 GMT -8
A Genesis / Rapido quality HO scale C-415 will be a huge home run. It would generate many more sales than the FL9, which is no slouch. I'd have to respectfully disagree on that one. The regions that the various locomotives traveled are much more densely populated, resulting in more people seeing them, purchasing them, etc. Also, the DL-109 was the greatest example of "we might only sell a few of the New Haven ones." Not so much. The rabid New Haven modelers bought the first run, and second run of them rather quickly. The other roads all sat on the shelf. We're on run ?.. 4? and they're still selling them. It could be pretty close between the C415 and FL9. The C415 didn't exactly toil in obscure places. Rock Island C415 - Chicago Burlington Northern - Seattle, Chicago, Portland Southern Pacific - Los Angeles Spokane, Portland & Seattle - Seattle, Portland Chicago and LA aren't exactly one horse towns. SP touches some large urban areas besides LA, like San Francisco. SP&S modelers will make it worth a manufacturers time to do the two SP&S units and to lesser extent BN fans. Rock Island and Chicago area modelers will aid the Rock Island version. The C415 may not be flashy like the FL9, but it worked in front of millions of people for many years.
|
|
|
Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 9, 2014 7:23:12 GMT -8
Spokane, Portland & Seattle - Seattle, Portland Uhh, SEATTLE??? Ed
|
|
|
Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 9, 2014 9:04:25 GMT -8
As BN units, and in SP&S colors after the May 1970 merger. Interesting. Got a shot of an SP&S painted C415 in Seattle? Ed
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 13:37:07 GMT -8
|
|
|
Post by marknycfan on Jul 9, 2014 13:55:19 GMT -8
I like how the FL-9 announcement brings out the ugly in people because their beloved choice of road or prototype isn't being modeled...it's that attitude that can ruin the hobby. I've dealt with it on the other side of the counter too; you don't like what this guy models, keep your mouth shut as he reaches for his wallet and buys ATSF, UP, Reading or what ever and when he leaves show me how much you love your favorite road with your wallet.
|
|
|
Post by TBird1958 on Jul 9, 2014 14:04:32 GMT -8
Thanks for that! I know the location and the photographer, not all that far from my present home. Seattle in the years after the merger was a very interesting place.
|
|
|
Post by carrman on Jul 9, 2014 14:44:21 GMT -8
I like how the FL-9 announcement brings out the ugly in people because their beloved choice of road or prototype isn't being modeled...it's that attitude that can ruin the hobby. I've dealt with it on the other side of the counter too; you don't like what this guy models, keep your mouth shut as he reaches for his wallet and buys ATSF, UP, Reading or what ever and when he leaves show me how much you love your favorite road with your wallet. I don't recall seeing where this ever got ugly. Dave
|
|