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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 9, 2014 15:00:21 GMT -8
Gosh, that sure doesn't look like the SP&S paint scheme I'm familiar with. And that big "BN". No, that's not SP&S. Care to try again? And, no, Washington State won't work. Ed
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 9, 2014 15:53:51 GMT -8
Geodyssey, didn't you notice that this FL9 thread has been highjacked with an Alco topic? Although it can be construed as a condescending act, it doesn't seem that there was malice intended.
Mark, Glad to see your post but lets keep things cool on an overall good thread. I was thinking thoughts similar to yours. Speaking for myself and several friends I know, we've been hoping for a quality plastic FL-9 for at least a decade. I still remember that about a decade ago there was a gentleman (I think from Australia) who came very close to producing an FL9 and several other uncommon "regionally captured" locomotives but was squelched in his efforts due to a rough divorce. Imho when a unit is announced that creates excitement in a number of modelers, especially a LONG awaited unit like the EMD FL9, it's a good occasion to be happy and supportive for them. Although we're free to express ourselves on this forum, it's such a bummer of a feeling whenever fellow modelers (intentionally or unintentionally) make posts that basically "rain on the celebrators' parade" and ruins what should be a happy moment on a forum . We've seen it a number of times on other Announcement threads on this and other forums as well. Either the thread is hijacked and something totally unrelated becomes the topic or we see the usual "Well, I don't need one!" / "Why is that being produced?" / "Those aren't going to sell" / "Instead of that, they should've produced the SD-whatever." type comments. Again we're free to express ourselves civilly and I'm not knocking anyone here. I too have to watch myself when announcements are made of units that I'm not interested in, but felt here that we should be aware that we may be unintentionally committing the "rainy day parade" act without realizing it. To be fair to those individuals, it's difficult to convey precise thoughts behind a keyboard. I realize that in face-to-face conversations, a person in a group can "seemingly" make some tart comments about a happy occurrence, but it turns out he/she jokes around in that manner and everyone in the group understands the joking and simply laughs and comes back with a counter-joke. There are some modelers, like Al who are very good about expressing their fun humor when talking about a new announcement so that their comments and honest intentions are clearly understood when they post. Unfortunately, some others with the good intentions don't come across as humorously or good-natured when typing posts. I had that issue years back and worked to improve expressing my thoughts more accurately when on the keyboard. ------------------------------------------------------------- I like how the FL-9 announcement brings out the ugly in people because their beloved choice of road or prototype isn't being modeled...it's that attitude that can ruin the hobby. I've dealt with it on the other side of the counter too; you don't like what this guy models, keep your mouth shut as he reaches for his wallet and buys ATSF, UP, Reading or what ever and when he leaves show me how much you love your favorite road with your wallet.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 9, 2014 15:59:27 GMT -8
any one notice the SP&S units had sideways stacks against the cabs. was this so larger cab windows could be used ? or was Alco making an Up-Grade that would be standard if more C415s had been built ? one more Alco Oddity-any one notice that the 1st ACL C628s had DL-600B sideways Brake Levers ? the Brake cylinders were mounted lower also with that setup. Spikre
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Post by navarch1 on Jul 9, 2014 16:16:50 GMT -8
Robert, they were occasionally used in freight service by the New Haven, in early 1970 a large number of them were transferred to the ex New York Central Hudson and Harlem lines for commuter service, protecting the Poughkeepsie and Brewster trains. They allowed the retirement of the T and P class electric locomotives and reassignment of the ex Central boiler equipped RS-3's. After 1970 they worked the locomotive hauled trains on the Metro Region, covering the Hudson, Harlem, and New Haven Lines. A few were transferred to Amtrak to protect the Grand Central to Albany Empire Service trains. The Penn Central replaced them on the New Haven to Boston line with E-8-A's for the East of New Haven trains. Never were freight haulers on PC. Bill Somewhere in my slides from the 70's there is one with three PC FL9's leading on TV-6 through Framingham, eastbound. This was around 1973, give or take, trusting recall. At the time we assumed they were enroute back east after work at some or another PC shop. They were not particularly clean I recall. One was black two were blue and yellow. Bob
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Post by navarch1 on Jul 9, 2014 16:17:46 GMT -8
Great news, I'm in for a couple of PCs in basic PC black. It's about time someone did these. Joe I'm shocked as to the amount of PC modelers are just as exited about this model. As the New Haven guys. I'm in for a pair, so here is another PC modeler.... Bob
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 9, 2014 16:21:21 GMT -8
any one notice the SP&S units had sideways stacks against the cabs. was this so larger cab windows could be used ? Yes the windows are indeed larger and would have been obstructed by a stack flat up against the cab wall. Later, as BN units, they had "straight shot" vertical stacks installed--out in the "middle" of the hood. Ed
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jul 9, 2014 17:44:42 GMT -8
All SP C-415s have the stack bent up against the cab wall, although an Alco drawing shows a normal straight-up stack. Styling? But, but, but the demonstrator has the stack back at the cab wall: And, oh yeah, FL9's are wonderful. Ed
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 9, 2014 18:18:07 GMT -8
Ed, Well, if RPS doesn't make 'em, I think Division Point is making the NH stainless steel cars in brass. They'll probably be in the $500 ea. range. John, I just figured it was you hacking into e-mails to get blackmail material on all the manufacturers to force them to do your bidding! Jim, The FL9, not only used on just about every non-commuter passenger train the NH had, was used in just about all NH promotional items after they arrived. They were used in billboards, on timetables, in newspaper ads, on TV and even in movies. Their image was used on just about anything the NH used to promote itself, and the NH really tried to do so. A NH fan modeling the post-1955 era simply has to have multiple FL9's. Even the NHRHTA uses it for our logo. I don't think the C-415 ever made it to a timetable cover, nor does a modeler really "need" one unless you're modeling one of the non-Class I RR's. That's not to say that it wouldn't be a cool engine to have a model of because it has that weird/unique motive power vibe to it. I think it would be a good choice to do next, but I don't think it will be as good a seller as the FL9 will be. Just look at the first run of Osgood Bradley coaches from Rapido in NH and B&M, a necessity to model those two roads. They all sold out before they left China. The 2nd batch, which includes the SSW, SBD, KCS, T&NO, and yes, SP, can't get enough reservations to be produced and has been postponed, probably because those RR's had plenty of other cars and weren't the mainstay of their fleets. Meanwhile, a 3rd batch of NH & B&M (w/ Smokers) has been made and sold out already. Geodyssey, Yep, the FL9's were used in night TOFC service, usually in 3-unit sets. The NH got around the problems of no nose MU on the second 30 units (really, they should be FL18's), by running an older one in the middle. Why? Well, that's what happens when you ask the ICC for a loan guarantee to buy passenger engines and they say you can't set them up for freight service. How is SP's 1996 merger germaine? Because it was 18 years ago. This leaves any 21st Century modeler cut out of any SP action, and there are a lot of modern modelers. UP doesn't have that problem. Fewer years in business = less of a chance of folks modeling it. Um, I don't see a difference between those who model a road and those that buy stuff for a road. Of course my club has a geographic bias, but then your poll has an internet bias, and a bias based on the more prototypical modeling forums like the Diesel List and this place. I would not count a 66-response poll as significant beyond the place the data was gathered from. Taking 66 internet posters and extrapolating across the entire hobby will not give the best results. All too true about the odd things selling. Look at any historic train film and you'll see an endless sea of brown boxcars. Look at any historic model train layout and bright colors probably dominate the scene. marknycfan, Um, no, we're not arguing, we're debating on what's more popular and how to determine that. As I said, I don't even like UP and I'm debating that they are more modeled than SP (also a road I do not model). And it's ATSF that's apparently No. 1. If I was arguing about my "beloved choice" of railroad, I'd be boosting the NH...but I'm not. As much as I love the NH, it's not a top 10 railroad. Ruin the hobby? For who? For what? You mean it actually matters what someone else thinks of what I model? Um, no, it doesn't. And if it does, I'd be in the wrong hobby because I do it for me because I enjoy it, not for what anybody else thinks.
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Post by bdhicks on Jul 9, 2014 19:26:58 GMT -8
I don't think there's any model a manufacturer could announce that would excite the majority of US modelers. There's just too many eras, regions, and roads. Even a Genesis SD40-2 would be limited in appeal by competition from other currently existing models and the time it'll take to run all the roadnames people want.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2014 19:55:09 GMT -8
I don't think there's any model a manufacturer could announce that would excite the majority of US modelers. There's just too many eras, regions, and roads. Even a Genesis SD40-2 would be limited in appeal by competition from other currently existing models and the time it'll take to run all the roadnames people want. I think the last time a model interested the majority(51% or more) of the modelers may have been when Athearn and Highliners actually got the F-Series A-unit to store shelves. Up until then, we had the Athearn/Globe or blue box F, Stewart and Intermountain. When people saw the Highliner A-unit there was a buzz. The SD40-2 market is getting a little filled up right now with the Athearn RTR, BLI, IMRC and soon Bowser will be sitting at the table. I can't think of any diesel which has had a long period of service, a deep stable of owners and hasn't been done in either a top tier model(Genesis, Master, etc.) or step below(RTR, Trainman, etc.). Switchers like the NW2 and SW7 are a couple of the fertile fields which haven't been too farmed out. But they ain't sexy like road power. We've been waiting and those are major missing links in high end models, but I don't know anyone that would say "I've been waiting my whole life for those models".
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 10, 2014 5:09:53 GMT -8
One issue that's been mentioned on other forums is the New Haven "Orange-Red" color for the McGinnis scheme. I think it's safe to say that the Rapido NH FL9 will likely have the correct official colors with the information provided by the NHRHTA. There are other modelers, besides myself, that are going to paint older run brass PS cars or the plastic Pullman Standard cars kits into the McGinnis scheme. I just remembered that there were at least 3 versions from different model paint manufacturers of the NH McGinnis Red-Orange color (Badger ModelFlex offers one). Although I'll proceed to assemble my E&B Valley kits and Alclad them, I'll wait until I have a Rapido FL9 in my hands before painting the window row, so that I can match it. Although my paint matching skills are pretty decent ( I think) I'm not looking for a perfect "Exacto-mundo" match since red colors on fleet vehicles tend to vary slightly in hue due to aging, chalking, blend repairs, slight tinting variances from paint manufacturers (DuPont vs PPG), etc. Here's a brass HO EP5 that I passed up on ebay due to skyrocketing bid prices. Although lighting color and angle may be a factor here, the red hue appears slightly darker than the Modelflex formula, but I could be mistaken.
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Post by TBird1958 on Jul 10, 2014 6:27:41 GMT -8
Hmmm. Not sure I get the appeal: Ed These two don't appear to be the same color - interesting point. Were they supposed to be?
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Post by slowfreight on Jul 10, 2014 7:07:55 GMT -8
A few observations about the FL9 in general...
It's interesting to me that even though GMD had been producing the FP9 with dual 48" fans for several years, the FL9's all came with 4 36" fans. As modern as FL9's were, I would have thought something that different (in some ways a radical departure from past F experience) would have incorporated more of GMD's innovations. After all, the A-1-A truck was spec'd in anticipation of a different variation that never got ordered IIRC.
Also, when you look at the fuel tank configuration and flexicoil trucks--which were totally unique to the FL9 as compared to E and F units--it almost looked to me as though the FL9 has more in common with some of the Clyde-built Australian units. There's a plethora of EMD-licensed units in Oz that have E/F noses and more modern components (like flexicoil trucks) such that we wouldn't dare think of them as an E or F, but the FL9 strongly veered in that direction. How much later were the Aussie diesels built?
I always liked these because there's an attraction to a "long" short locomotive (think GP40TC) or a "short" long locomotive (think SDL39). As it were, the GP40TC may be the last thing I like that won't get released in plastic before I get around to kitbashing.
Too bad I never got to see FL9's operating in the wild (apologies to M&E).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2014 7:20:05 GMT -8
Hmmm. Not sure I get the appeal: Ed These two don't appear to be the same color - interesting point. Were they supposed to be? I'd caution against putting a lot credence in matching paint to a nearly 60 year old slide. Color's can shift as a slide ages. What slide film was used? What filters, etc. was the photographer using when he or she took the original photo? Always match paint to actual physical samples is what I've learned over the years. I'm sure some New Haven modeler has CHUNK of original EMD red-orange paint off an FL9. I'm also sure someone in the New Haven society has paint codes and brands used by NH and EMD. The apparent mismatch of color between the electric and the FL9 is interesting. The FL9 is factory fresh, but is the electric a repaint or delivered in that scheme. I don't know much about the NH's electrics expect I think they painted some orange, which I want to say were the former Virginian locomotives. Paint chips from all the units would be helpful.
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Post by TBird1958 on Jul 10, 2014 7:59:00 GMT -8
It certainly raises a few questions, but since those two locos in the picture came to the NH from two different builders at different times I completely understand that they can't be identical in color. As a modeler I think the fun is discovering this and going on to portray it in model form. I'm not an NH fan but as I mentioned am seriously considering an FL9 model - Rapido is the perfect company for this project, the NH fans get what will be the definitive model at a fair price, it'll run better than than brass, no doubt have the correct nose, windows, etc, plus specific details, I think that's a huge win for all of us. Thanks you Jason and Rapido!
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Post by John Sheridan on Jul 11, 2014 4:11:13 GMT -8
One issue that's been mentioned on other forums is the New Haven "Orange-Red" color for the McGinnis scheme. I think it's safe to say that the Rapido NH FL9 will likely have the correct official colors with the information provided by the NHRHTA. Here's a brass HO EP5 that I passed up on ebay due to skyrocketing bid prices. Although lighting color and angle may be a factor here, the red hue appears slightly darker than the Modelflex formula, but I could be mistaken. Man did someone paint that EP-5 the wrong Red! It should have been NH 409 Red-Orange if i remember correctly. The NHRHTA did publish a color guide book showing all the colors used on the New Haven from about 1935 to the end in 1968. It is pretty much the bible for manufacturers who paint NH locomotives & rolling stock.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 11, 2014 9:50:19 GMT -8
the 1st 2 FL9s [actually NH9s Paul] had Blomberg front trucks when they arrived as EMD Demos. they worked fine until the Spring Hangers started hitting the 3rd rail,so it was back to EMD for a fix. that consisted of stretched 2 Axle Flexi-Coil trucks,and its possible the trucks under the Demos were welded together,then changed later to cast trucks when the change was made at the foundry. the Blomberg A-1-A truck doesn't seem to have been considered possibly due to weight, or NH wanted the option to install the middle traction motor at some later date,but don't recall this was ever done. the second order of FL9s should be NH18s as they had a number of changes besides the 1800 HP GP/SD18 block in them. EMD has fudged more than 1 Model designation over the years,FT should have been F1,BL1, F5,2 SD40Xs,2 GP40Xs,and others. Spikre
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Post by TBird1958 on Jul 11, 2014 10:25:18 GMT -8
Now I want an EP-5 as well the FL9, thanks guys.......
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Post by Spikre on Jul 11, 2014 10:29:24 GMT -8
Robert, am too old too be DUPED by GM idiots that cant come up with correct Model designations. what does the FL9 have in common with an F3 or F7 ? the only thing in common with an F9 is a similar Engine in the 1st 30 units,the second 30 units dont even have that in common. the FP7/9s had plenty in common with regular F units,but the FLs were a NH one off,so why NOT call them NH9 or NH18s ? when did Baldwin call any locos "Baby Face" ? or "Shark" ? or "Centepede" ? or Alco "Aligators" ? so there are precidents here. NH9 or NH18 would be Railfan Slang for the units,and still most would know what Locos are being talked about. Spikre
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Post by carrman on Jul 11, 2014 11:41:54 GMT -8
Now I want an EP-5 as well the FL9, thanks guys....... A Jet in plastic would be really cool. I need to buy that Jet book that was written..... Dave
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Post by Judge Doom on Jul 11, 2014 14:35:12 GMT -8
Robert, am too old too be DUPED by GM idiots that cant come up with correct Model designations. what does the FL9 have in common with an F3 or F7 ? the only thing in common with an F9 is a similar Engine in the 1st 30 units,the second 30 units dont even have that in common. the FP7/9s had plenty in common with regular F units,but the FLs were a NH one off,so why NOT call them NH9 or NH18s ? when did Baldwin call any locos "Baby Face" ? or "Shark" ? or "Centepede" ? or Alco "Aligators" ? so there are precidents here. NH9 or NH18 would be Railfan Slang for the units,and still most would know what Locos are being talked about. Spikre There was an article in Railfan and Railroad a few years ago about the FL9's origins. FL9 was reportedly conceived as a longer passenger unit (probably why the L was there) to store more water for the steam generators, aimed at long-haul passenger train operations to minimize water stops. The idea went something along the lines of running FP9-F9B-F9B-FL9 sets. There were a few RR's out west that preferred F's over E's for passenger service. ATSF, DRGW, and GN come to mind. There were no takers, but when New Haven needed a unit, it seems GM dusted off the FL9 blueprints on the shelf and thought they would be ideal for dual-mode electric operation. It would have probably acquired some kind of "FE9" or "FP9E" designation if it was purpose-built from scratch for dual-mode diesel + electric ops for the NH. Another off-the-shelf adaptation were the SDP45's built for EL with larger fuel tanks and no steam generators, which were still called SDP45's despite their lack of S/G's. And an F-unit is an F-unit is an F-unit, hence the F-designation. There was a railroad or two that took delivery of GP9's with the higher horsepower 567D from the GP18, but they were still called GP9's.
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Post by bdhicks on Jul 11, 2014 17:08:15 GMT -8
Using EMD model names can be confusing, but not using EMD model names would be even more confusing.
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Post by Amboy Secondary on Jul 11, 2014 17:35:33 GMT -8
Using EMD model names can be confusing, but not using EMD model names would be even more confusing. True. EMD's designations work for me. I also think the time has come for a plastic NH EP5 (Jet). They always looked cool when parked between 10th Ave and 9th Avenue. Remember them working A1 and A2 between South Amboy and Morrisville.
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Post by TBird1958 on Jul 11, 2014 17:52:01 GMT -8
You know Jason is probably listening.
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Post by bnsf971 on Jul 12, 2014 2:51:01 GMT -8
Doesn't EMD= Every Model Different? I know Alco's model designations up to the Century line were "DL this" and "DL that", but the external designations from foamers and railroads stuck more than the official designations.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 12, 2014 7:49:59 GMT -8
not all Alcos started with DL prefaces,the RS-2 was E1661,A,B,C,the RS-3 was E1662,A,B,C. there were a few others also. so where did the Terms: U-Boat Toaster Techno-Toaster originate ? not at GE. or Snoot,not at EMD. the only thing in common the NH9/18 had with F units was the Body Construction,they were more like 3/4 E Units,than F units. the F-M Consolidation Line was Unified,1600,2000,2400 HP engines in a Common 4 or 5 Axle body,and were Marketed as such. have read that Railfan article,and believe if built as originally planned the units would have had the E unit Hi-Speed Blomberg A-1-A rear truck. how about the EMD "Botched GP5 Program ? think that one deserves its own thread. cars are not Marketed like locomotives,but with the Early 1938-1949 Diesels one does wonder if some were purchased because they had pleasing paint schemes. recall that didn't help U.P. complete the Centipede transaction,they walked away . Spikre
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Post by Paul Cutler III on Jul 12, 2014 8:29:45 GMT -8
Geodyssey, So SP's 1996 merger means they are more popular because they've been gone for 18 years? Well, in that case, the NYO&W must be even more popular because it's been gone for 57 years and has a very active historical group! And I don't know why you can't grasp that your survey is an incredibly small sample size (even at 109 responders) and that it actually doesn't mean anything for national numbers. If the SP was the No. 1 most popular railroad, why do Athearn and Atlas make far more ATSF and UP models than SP models? Actually, I thought of one way to further examine RR popularity: membership numbers of historical groups. Sure, it won't be perfect because not all historical groups are equal in quality. But it'd be another data point if nothing else. Antonio, I actually own a pair of real NH placards from "8600's" (you can tell they are real because the script logo is etched into the other side). I also own the NHRHTA's paint chip book, which used the NH's own paint order with DuPont to recreate these colors correctly. I took the three red-orange color chips (NH Serial #428 "Socony Red", #409 and #406), and placed them on top of one of my NH placards and took a pic (see below). Now, the NH placard was probably painted in 1955 or '56 and not touched since. It was out in the weather for at least 20 years, so it's possible that it's not the same color it was. But it's real, and to my eyes the Serial #406 is the matching color for the "8600's". As for the FL9's, they got two different red-oranges. I have a shot showing two FL9's back to back and one is #406 and the other is #409. For the record, the NHRHTA's Paint Chip book has three red-oranges (the ones pictured) and describes the following: NH Serial #428: 1955-1956 DuPont alternative to first McGinnis red-orange, referred to as Socony Red. NH Serial #409: 1956-1964 Used on 1956 road switchers and various repaints; renamed #406 after 1963. NH Serial #406 (Early): 1957-1960 Used on first 30 FL9's and various repaints. slowfreight, The lack of advanced upgrades (like twin 48" fans) to the 1960 EDER-5a class is probably due to the ICC's insistence that these be as close as identical to the earlier EDER-5's of 1956-57. Only EMD's dropping the 567C's from production led to the EDER-5a's 567D1 and it's 1800Hp. Or if you're talking about the earlier units, too, then it might be the fact that the FL9 was an older design that was in the books but never sold. If the NH was in a big hurry (and considering that Pres. Alpert signed on for 30 units before the demos were built, that might be the truth), EMD might have just gone with it without a redesign. As for why they were called "FL9's", it's probably because they were original meant to run with FP9's and F9B's in an ABBA set for Western RR's like the ATSF. With EMD, salesmen had quite a bit of say when it came to what diesels were called. Just look at the reason why the 2nd generation diesels started with a GP30 and not a GP22 (because it was a higher number than "U25B"). If EMD was trying to sell ATSF on a 4-unit F set, they would have wanted them all to be the same nomenclature. Jim, The NH carbody electric in the back of the FL9 photo is an EP-5 type made just for the NH. The ex-Virginian units were EF-4's (originally EL-C's, later E-33's) and have a hood-type body. Spikre, Actually, the swing hanger for the Blombergs were not hitting the 3rd rail. They were sent back after each one caught fire because their 2000 amp fuses were not fast enough to stop damage from occurring when something bad happened with the 7000+ amp 3rd rail. The reason why they changed from the Blombergs to the Flexicoil on the front truck was they needed 3rd rail shoes on both trucks due to long gaps in the 3rd rail when going through switches. Originally, there were two shoes next to each other on the rear truck only. There's no place to hang a 3rd rail shoe on a Blomberg, but with a Flexicoil there is. It's the same reason why the rear truck was a Flexicoil from Day 1 and not an E9A-like A-1-A truck. The swing hanger doesn't leave any room. While I believe that the EDER-5a's should have been called FL18's, the I.C.C. nixed that. Calling them "NH19's"...? Um, EMD was not in the habit of using RR initials on even the most custom made diesels. And I can only imagine the resulting chaos that would have caused if every RR got that. Geodyssey, Actually, railfans have a lot more to do with model designations than one might think. For example, did you know that Atlas has made Alco DL-701's for years? They look just like an RS-11. Same goes for a lot of Alco models because Alco called all of them "DL-XXX" and advertised them as "1500Hp road switcher" (RS-2) or "1000Hp switcher" (S-2). It was railfans that came up with most of the Alco designations until the Century series came out. Spikre, Actually, the FL9's had a lot in common with their F9 cousins. In fact, the operator's manual (one of which I have) has all four: F9A, F9B, FP9 and FL9 (EDER-5) with an additional addendum in the rear for the FL9's electric operation. In diesel mode, they were the same with the same components. Why not call them FL9's when they were that similar? Now the EDER-5a's were different, which is why I'd call them FL18's if anybody listened to me. Instead, I use the NH's class code of EDER-5a because at least it's official and other people will know what I'm talking about. Dave, The best part about any future EP-5 in plastic is that it would have sound. And unlike most electrics, the EP-5 has a very recognizable sound. There's a live TV recording that is available in the NHRHTA's video series. It was on a TV show that was for women in the 1950's and one bit involved following the husband to work and filming live on location. One day, the husband was a NH engineer who was operating a brand new EP-5. They interviewed him with a lineside camera, then had another inside the cab. At the end of the interview, they had him power away. As he notches up, it's unmistakable...it sounds just like a Boeing 707 on take off. The EP-5's were called "Jets" for good reason!
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Post by Spikre on Jul 12, 2014 8:50:54 GMT -8
for the Record the Second EL order for the Stretched SD45 Type Locos was: SD45M that was the Official EMD Model designation that is over looked by most here. Paul, the 1st GP22 was quite a bit different from Production GP30s,pictures are out there to compare . same with the GE XP24s,they were Very Different from Production U25Bs.look at the Arched roof and try to find that on U25Bs. Spikre
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 12, 2014 10:52:26 GMT -8
The only manufacturer to never vary their designations was Ingalls. 100% consistent.
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Post by Spikre on Jul 12, 2014 11:00:02 GMT -8
what about Lima ?? no designations at ALL !! Spikre
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