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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 12, 2014 11:22:13 GMT -8
what about Lima ?? no designations at ALL !! Spikre LS1200? LT2500? Admit it. You are just angry that the Erie did not have the wisdom to invest fully in Ingalls. Just imagine a brace of 2nd generation stretched 6s, with 5000 gallon fuel tanks, hammering across the diamonds in Marion in notch 8. It would have been glorious...
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Post by bdhicks on Jul 12, 2014 14:28:28 GMT -8
The FL9 has a full-width body and a single prime mover, just like the F3 and the F45 do, so I'd say it gets to use the F designation.
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Post by roadkill on Jul 12, 2014 17:40:54 GMT -8
Robert, am too old too be DUPED by GM idiots that cant come up with correct Model designations. what does the FL9 have in common with an F3 or F7 ? the only thing in common with an F9 is a similar Engine in the 1st 30 units,the second 30 units dont even have that in common. the FP7/9s had plenty in common with regular F units,but the FLs were a NH one off,so why NOT call them NH9 or NH18s ? when did Baldwin call any locos "Baby Face" ? or "Shark" ? or "Centepede" ? or Alco "Aligators" ? so there are precidents here. NH9 or NH18 would be Railfan Slang for the units,and still most would know what Locos are being talked about. Spikre And let's not forget probably the most misidentified diesel... the Baldwin BP20. Only one problem... Baldwin never built a BP20. That was the Pennsy's classification, Baldwin referred to them as DR6-4-2000's.
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Post by bdhicks on Jul 12, 2014 20:53:09 GMT -8
The fact is that your list of respondents is not a random sampling. Maybe those 19 all found the diesel list on their own, maybe they all joined after a guy at an SP historical Society meeting told them about it. I know I'm only in this forum because someone mentioned it at BAPM a few years ago. Of course, by the same token you could be drastically underreporting the popularity of SP, there's no way to tell.
Just because it's online and not explicitly region or road specific doesn't mean there aren't biases one way or another.
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Post by peoriaman on Jul 13, 2014 4:56:30 GMT -8
You know Jason is probably listening. And seeing the two weird directions this thread has branched off into lately, he's probably recoiling in terror. My totally unscientific poll says most modelers don't care at all which railroad is most popular, nor do they care what EMD should have named the FL9 but didn't.
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 13, 2014 6:01:37 GMT -8
Paul,HOMERUN, on your reply regarding the color issue. I've copied and saved your post in a Word format, for future reference. Thanks for posting the well detailed and valuable information with the photograph. It helps back up the explanations as to why the orange-red colors varied from unit to unit as shown in the photo that Ed posted (and likely staved off some potential arguments): photo from EdAs a former collision repair tech I'm often the first to say that ANY red color that has been out in the weather for over a year can be a pain to match, even with computerized mixing formulas. I will target a mix that looks similar to your choice, #406, since I'm modeling the post 1960s era. I'll buy both Badger Modelflex NH colors (16-182) New Haven Red Orange) and (16-183) New Haven Socony Red. When I get receive my Rapido FL-9, I'll do a color comparison for a mix, but am not going to "nitpick" about being exact since the prototypes varied as well. -------------------------------------------- Antonio, I actually own a pair of real NH placards from "8600's" (you can tell they are real because the script logo is etched into the other side). I also own the NHRHTA's paint chip book, which used the NH's own paint order with DuPont to recreate these colors correctly. I took the three red-orange color chips (NH Serial #428 "Socony Red", #409 and #406), and placed them on top of one of my NH placards and took a pic (see below).
Now, the NH placard was probably painted in 1955 or '56 and not touched since. It was out in the weather for at least 20 years, so it's possible that it's not the same color it was. But it's real, and to my eyes the Serial #406 is the matching color for the "8600's".
As for the FL9's, they got two different red-oranges. I have a shot showing two FL9's back to back and one is #406 and the other is #409.
For the record, the NHRHTA's Paint Chip book has three red-oranges (the ones pictured) and describes the following:
NH Serial #428: 1955-1956 DuPont alternative to first McGinnis red-orange, referred to as Socony Red. NH Serial #409: 1956-1964 Used on 1956 road switchers and various repaints; renamed #406 after 1963. NH Serial #406 (Early): 1957-1960 Used on first 30 FL9's and various repaints.
slowfreight, The lack of advanced upgrades (like twin 48" fans) to the 1960 EDER-5a class is probably due to the ICC's insistence that these be as close as identical to the earlier EDER-5's of 1956-57. Only EMD's dropping the 567C's from production led to the EDER-5a's 567D1 and it's 1800Hp. Or if you're talking about the earlier units, too, then it might be the fact that the FL9 was an older design that was in the books but never sold. If the NH was in a big hurry (and considering that Pres. Alpert signed on for 30 units before the demos were built, that might be the truth), EMD might have just gone with it without a redesign.
As for why they were called "FL9's", it's probably because they were original meant to run with FP9's and F9B's in an ABBA set for Western RR's like the ATSF. With EMD, salesmen had quite a bit of say when it came to what diesels were called. Just look at the reason why the 2nd generation diesels started with a GP30 and not a GP22 (because it was a higher number than "U25B"). If EMD was trying to sell ATSF on a 4-unit F set, they would have wanted them all to be the same nomenclature.
Jim, The NH carbody electric in the back of the FL9 photo is an EP-5 type made just for the NH. The ex-Virginian units were EF-4's (originally EL-C's, later E-33's) and have a hood-type body.
Spikre, Actually, the swing hanger for the Blombergs were not hitting the 3rd rail. They were sent back after each one caught fire because their 2000 amp fuses were not fast enough to stop damage from occurring when something bad happened with the 7000+ amp 3rd rail.
The reason why they changed from the Blombergs to the Flexicoil on the front truck was they needed 3rd rail shoes on both trucks due to long gaps in the 3rd rail when going through switches. Originally, there were two shoes next to each other on the rear truck only. There's no place to hang a 3rd rail shoe on a Blomberg, but with a Flexicoil there is. It's the same reason why the rear truck was a Flexicoil from Day 1 and not an E9A-like A-1-A truck. The swing hanger doesn't leave any room.
While I believe that the EDER-5a's should have been called FL18's, the I.C.C. nixed that. Calling them "NH19's"...? Um, EMD was not in the habit of using RR initials on even the most custom made diesels. And I can only imagine the resulting chaos that would have caused if every RR got that.
Geodyssey, Actually, railfans have a lot more to do with model designations than one might think. For example, did you know that Atlas has made Alco DL-701's for years? They look just like an RS-11. Same goes for a lot of Alco models because Alco called all of them "DL-XXX" and advertised them as "1500Hp road switcher" (RS-2) or "1000Hp switcher" (S-2). It was railfans that came up with most of the Alco designations until the Century series came out.
Spikre, Actually, the FL9's had a lot in common with their F9 cousins. In fact, the operator's manual (one of which I have) has all four: F9A, F9B, FP9 and FL9 (EDER-5) with an additional addendum in the rear for the FL9's electric operation. In diesel mode, they were the same with the same components. Why not call them FL9's when they were that similar?
Now the EDER-5a's were different, which is why I'd call them FL18's if anybody listened to me. Instead, I use the NH's class code of EDER-5a because at least it's official and other people will know what I'm talking about.
Dave, The best part about any future EP-5 in plastic is that it would have sound. And unlike most electrics, the EP-5 has a very recognizable sound. There's a live TV recording that is available in the NHRHTA's video series. It was on a TV show that was for women in the 1950's and one bit involved following the husband to work and filming live on location. One day, the husband was a NH engineer who was operating a brand new EP-5. They interviewed him with a lineside camera, then had another inside the cab. At the end of the interview, they had him power away. As he notches up, it's unmistakable...it sounds just like a Boeing 707 on take off. The EP-5's were called "Jets" for good reason!
Paul A. Cutler III ************** Weather Or No Go New Haven **************
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Post by sd80mac on Jul 13, 2014 11:31:34 GMT -8
The fact is that your list of respondents is not a random sampling. Maybe those 19 all found the diesel list on their own, maybe they all joined after a guy at an SP historical Society meeting told them about it. I know I'm only in this forum because someone mentioned it at BAPM a few years ago. Of course, by the same token you could be drastically underreporting the popularity of SP, there's no way to tell. Just because it's online and not explicitly region or road specific doesn't mean there aren't biases one way or another. No survey is truly random, there are biases built into to all of them. And many have their results twisted during analysis in order to advance a particular position. But I posted the raw numbers with no BS, I don't really care who came up on top. I give up, assign whatever significance you want to the results. SP 2:1 over UP, whatever. You should give up because this is an argument you'll never win!
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Post by antoniofp45 on Jul 13, 2014 12:11:21 GMT -8
Peoriaman, I doubt that Jason's recoiling. He is a fellow modeler and knows that responses on forum threads contain a mix of good information, speculation, emotionlly-laden opinions, and from time to time...."blips" of borderline insanity. But just the fact that an FL9 thread here and online elsewhere has garnered so many responses is a very good thing.....especially considering that we've frequently read/heard year after year from some modelers and manufacturer's reps the basic old tired response: "Well, an FL9 wouldn't really sell because it was a regionally captured locomotive"...). The fact that Rapido (not Bachmann, Athearn, or Walthers) is producing this unit is a exciting in itself due to the solid reputation for quality drives, extensive body detailing, and customer service makes it a win-win scenario. A friend of mine just spent nearly $400 for a sound equipped MTH HO unit that he's having difficulty running in DCC mode. I don't think this unit will be overpriced at all. I'm certain that in the future we will see a humorous YouTube clip regarding the new FL9 and I'm looking forward to it. Just for a "Yankee connection", I'd kindly suggest to Jason that, if it's possible, to consider including Rick Abramson or Paul in it as he takes measurements of a prototype. You know Jason is probably listening. And seeing the two weird directions this thread has branched off into lately, he's probably recoiling in terror. My totally unscientific poll says most modelers don't care at all which railroad is most popular, nor do they care what EMD should have named the FL9 but didn't.
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 13, 2014 18:59:34 GMT -8
And now the eBay sell off begins of the hard to find FL9's...just checked out listings under "New Haven HO" and 2 Athearns re-creations with Branford shells(?), & 1 Overland Brass are up for sale. I wonder why? Good luck to those 2 sellers trying to sell them off at those price....
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Post by rails4dmv on Jul 14, 2014 8:27:46 GMT -8
I feel sorry for the guy that doesn't do his homework and buys those FL9's on eBay not realizing there is a new better model coming from Rapido.
Even a brass collector should have trouble justifying kicking out that much money for that FL9!
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Post by ambluco on Jul 14, 2014 8:54:02 GMT -8
The brass one is 50% over the going rate of $900-1000 right now at 1500.
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Post by TBird1958 on Jul 14, 2014 9:57:55 GMT -8
Brass locomotives as an "investment" = not always a good idea!
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Post by Spikre on Jul 14, 2014 10:12:30 GMT -8
LS1200 and LS2500 are either RR Classes,or "RAILSLANG" applied to the Lima locos in question. cant find and refferances in 1950s Trade Magazines of Lima Model designations. they must have had Engineering Spec numbers at Lima,but no model numbers seem to be "Official" yet. got a link to any ? Alco DL700 never built,MLW did build the DL700 RS-10. Alco DL701,RS-11,also RS-36,both have been made in HO by Atlas. MLW produced the last DL701 RS-11s for NdeM after the Century series was built circa 1963/64. Bessemer, that 4-SS,or whatever sure looks like it would have sold better than the sort of dainty looking 4-S. interesting that some "RAILSLANG" loco designations are OK,but others arnt. Spikre
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Post by Spikre on Jul 14, 2014 10:48:18 GMT -8
Baldwin DR-6-4-2000 PHS-2 were called Passenger Sharks when they ran on the NY&LB. odd,but they looked in better shape than the E7s that replaced them. actual years of Long Distance service may have had something to do with that situation ? Spikre Donnell,we need a Shark Smilie
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 14, 2014 11:31:41 GMT -8
Dainty??? The 4s was a mighty manly locomotive. Too tough for most railroads. Some say it was the Chuck Norris of diesels.
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Post by rapidotrains on Jul 14, 2014 12:37:31 GMT -8
The models will not sell on the current listings. They'll have to be re-listed at realistic prices where they'll garner at least one bid. Otherwise, what's the point of putting an item up for auction? Many (potential) sellers way over-estimate what things will sell for, aka the value. People think they must sell their item for at least what they have "invested" in it, so it ends up on the shelf collecting dust or on blocks in the front yard, rusting down toward zero value. They don't understand (or they don't like) the concept of sunk costs. Oh well... Most of the eBay listings that are emailed to me each week are crazy people relisting their same old crap at absurd prices, like a 3x5" one-page VIA route timetable for $12. I long for the days when it once again costs money to list stuff on eBay. -Jason
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Post by sd80macs on Jul 14, 2014 14:31:13 GMT -8
And now the eBay sell off begins of the hard to find FL9's...just checked out listings under "New Haven HO" and 2 Athearns re-creations with Branford shells(?), & 1 Overland Brass are up for sale. I wonder why? Good luck to those 2 sellers trying to sell them off at those price.... Branford-Athearn 1 starting at $195 plus $18 shipping. Gak! www.ebay.com/itm/251585885897Branford-Athearn 2 starting at $195 plus $18 shipping. I'll play Antiques Roadshow host here and place a value at auction of $50-$60. The shell looks rough. I wouldn't pay over scrap value. If I owned any of these Branford models I'd list with a starting price low enough to attract a bid because in the coming year they're probably going to be worth even less. www.ebay.com/itm/251585877886Overland starting at $1,495 plus $24 shipping. Front windows look funky. I'd much rather have the Rapido unit, sight unseen. www.ebay.com/itm/261532341685Slide of a NH unit with some decent weathering: www.ebay.com/itm/311011283045Who will weather their PC unit as heavily as this: www.ebay.com/itm/371097702587$1500 for a brass version of a loco that sold for around $500 NIB. That guy must be on some good drugs, LOL
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Post by roadkill on Jul 14, 2014 17:47:02 GMT -8
You know Jason is probably listening. And seeing the two weird directions this thread has branched off into lately, he's probably recoiling in terror. My totally unscientific poll says most modelers don't care at all which railroad is most popular, nor do they care what EMD should have named the FL9 but didn't. Jason's probably rolling on the floor laughing with this thread derailment. I wouldn't worry about him .
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Post by rapidotrains on Jul 14, 2014 18:34:58 GMT -8
And seeing the two weird directions this thread has branched off into lately, he's probably recoiling in terror. My totally unscientific poll says most modelers don't care at all which railroad is most popular, nor do they care what EMD should have named the FL9 but didn't. Jason's probably rolling on the floor laughing with this thread derailment. I wouldn't worry about him . I've performed a poll of the people currently in my kitchen and we've decided that the most-requested locomotive is this: So that will be Rapido's next release. And the release after that will be a new and improved version of the same engine with real leaking engine oil. -Jason
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Tom
Full Member
Posts: 229
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Post by Tom on Jul 14, 2014 21:04:11 GMT -8
I've performed a poll of the people currently in my kitchen and we've decided that the most-requested locomotive is this: So that will be Rapido's next release. And the release after that will be a new and improved version of the same engine with real leaking engine oil. -Jason Too late. Looks like 50% of the market has been hit. www.pbase.com/tom_murray/image/156580760
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Post by bnsf971 on Jul 15, 2014 3:01:38 GMT -8
Jason's probably rolling on the floor laughing with this thread derailment. I wouldn't worry about him . I've performed a poll of the people currently in my kitchen and we've decided that the most-requested locomotive is this: So that will be Rapido's next release. And the release after that will be a new and improved version of the same engine with real leaking engine oil. -Jason Looks like somebody spiked the designers' coffee with home brewed tequila...
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Post by peoriaman on Jul 15, 2014 3:38:11 GMT -8
I've performed a poll of the people currently in my kitchen and we've decided that the most-requested locomotive is this: No, wrong survey. The people in MY kitchen says CP is more popular than CN; therefore the next Rapido locomotive should be the Empress of Agincourt. In about six different paint schemes of course. But be sure to call it by some other model designation, unlike anything else ever done by Alco/MLW. Call it a "CP2200" or something like that. Its what it should have been all along.
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Post by thebessemerkid on Jul 15, 2014 5:57:17 GMT -8
From the bowels of the rain-soaked pacific northwest, Behold!
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Post by rapidotrains on Jul 15, 2014 7:45:37 GMT -8
Looks like somebody spiked the designers' coffee with home brewed tequila...
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Post by TBird1958 on Jul 15, 2014 8:55:37 GMT -8
From the bowels of the rain-soaked pacific northwest, Behold!
We're a little "different" up here
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Post by slowfreight on Jul 15, 2014 9:08:31 GMT -8
I've performed a poll of the people currently in my kitchen and we've decided that the most-requested locomotive is this: So that will be Rapido's next release. And the release after that will be a new and improved version of the same engine with real leaking engine oil. -Jason Sorry, Jason...I can't hear you over the screaming HEP generator.
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Post by Mark R. on Jul 15, 2014 12:14:42 GMT -8
Geodyssey... How is SP's 1996 merger germaine? Because it was 18 years ago. This leaves any 21st Century modeler cut out of any SP action, and there are a lot of modern modelers. UP doesn't have that problem. Fewer years in business = less of a chance of folks modeling it. You do realize that bolsters my point that SP is the nost popular road to model? The road's been gone for 18 years and it still polled twice as well as the UP. I don't know why you are having such a difficult time grasping what my survey was, and wasn't. I asked "What railroad are people modeling?" and this came back. Here's all of the responses re: what railroad? As a Division Superintendent I worked with used to say "It is what it is". I made a mistake earlier and gave preliminary numbers. The final results were from 109 modelers, not 66. 102 unique railroads were mentioned a total of 274 times. SP 18ATSF 15 CR 13 BN 10 PC 9 UP 9SOU 8 MILW 7 MP 7 N&W 7 MKT 6 RI 6 CNW 5 NS 5 BNSF 4 Chessie 4 CP 4 CSX 4 DRGW 4 EL 4 GM&O 4 PRR 4 SAL 4 SCL 4 SOO 4 WP 4 B&O 3 GN 3 IC 3 L&N 3 NYC 3 SP&S 3 AA 2 AWP 2 B&LE 2 British 2 CB&Q 2 CG 2 D&H 2 D&TSL 2 DL&W 2 DT&I 2 GA 2 ICG 2 NP 2 A&M 1 A&R 1 AC&Y 1 ACL 1 Amtrak 1 Apache Ry 1 B&P 1 BA&P 1 BCR 1 BRC 1 British 1 CC&P 1 CCT 1 CHP 1 CN 1 CNJ 1 CRR 1 D&I 1 D&S 1 E&LS 1 European 1 FRV 1 GBW 1 GRS 1 GRS/PAR 1 GTW 1 HB&T 1 HBR (Hudson Bay Ry) 1 IHB 1 Industrial RR 1 KCS 1 LEF&C 1 LV 1 MARC 1 ME 1 MM&A 1 MRL 1 NC&StL 1 NdeM 1 NH 1 NKP 1 NS (orig) 1 ONT 1 P&S 1 Rail Express Systems (UK) 1 SL&A 1 SLSF 1 SN 1 SSW 1 TASD 1 TH&B 1 TP&W 1 TS 1 TTRR 1 WAB 1 WC 1 WRA 1 I apparently missed this survey. I could easily round up enough D&H modellers I know to put the D&H heads above your SP count .... but none are members here or were aware of your survey. Surveys are only a small sampling of the big picture and really don't show a true picture. Mark.
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Post by roadkill on Jul 15, 2014 15:35:20 GMT -8
Jason's probably rolling on the floor laughing with this thread derailment. I wouldn't worry about him . I've performed a poll of the people currently in my kitchen and we've decided that the most-requested locomotive is this: So that will be Rapido's next release. And the release after that will be a new and improved version of the same engine with real leaking engine oil. -Jason Yawn. When it belches real BLACK (not that phony grey stuff) smoke then I'll get excited !
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Post by Judge Doom on Jul 15, 2014 17:39:31 GMT -8
I'm sure if Rapido had a poll asking "What railroad are people modeling?" on their Facebook page, they'd get well over 18 as CN, CP, and/or even VIA, and minimal SP, UP, etc.
109 is still a very small sample size to make any kind of accurate generalized widespread conclusions from, unless it's just about that small group of people polled.
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Post by Mark R. on Jul 15, 2014 18:39:53 GMT -8
I'm sure if Rapido had a poll asking "What railroad are people modeling?" on their Facebook page, they'd get well over 18 as CN, CP, and/or even VIA, and minimal SP, UP, etc. 109 is still a very small sample size to make any kind of accurate generalized widespread conclusions from, unless it's just about that small group of people polled. Yeah, I could easily survey 109 people within a 25 mile radius of where I live and the majority would be either CN, CP or C&O. Mark.
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