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Post by markfj on May 13, 2023 15:19:16 GMT -8
For reference:  I think this truck is on a GP7:  Thanks, Mark |
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Post by fishbelly on May 13, 2023 15:25:43 GMT -8
Pretty much everything a modeler would want to know about the history of the Blomberg truck including the M. As well as the manufacturing of them. Dofasco would be Canadian made trucks. typically it would be just fine to have the LFM casting mark along with a serial number of sorts. As I mentioned. Kato did this back in the 1990's. The Kato side frame has all the depth and look of heft that is needed. All the detail as well. trainiax.net/metruck-gp.php |
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Post by delta767332er on May 13, 2023 19:56:12 GMT -8
Um.. no. That's not at all how it works. Everyone designs their own, with info (sometimes the complete CAD) provided from this side of the Pac. (read: the US of A). Each company decides what they'd like to do based on their perception of what will make them money.. or what their personal interest desires.
As for the Rapido geep 38 or the 40.. eh. We've got decent, better priced options out there, with undecs available.
The fans look weird, very "heavy". They looked and are weird on the F40 and the F59, so this is following suit.
It's comforting to believe that, but I don't think it's true in most cases. I'm convinced the Chinese shop the designs. There's just too many instances of concurrent models. If nothing else, they make strong suggestions to the brokers over here about what models to offer next and which ones would require the least in costs. Of course, there are exceptions. I don't believe working from scratch for every model is the prevailing method, however. You have no idea what you're talking about. |
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klinn
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Post by klinn on May 14, 2023 5:45:09 GMT -8
The ONLY collusion that occurs is when some companies share "hey dont make that because we are already cutting the tooling for it". Which Atlas has been kind and decent enough to do. Saved other company time and money. Rapido did something like that in the past. I was at a train show many years ago and asked their rep if they would consider producing an M420 some day. He replied that they had thought about it but discovered that another manufacturer was already starting work on one. He wouldn't tell me which manufacturer but from the hints he dropped I think it was Bowser. Of course, whoever it was, their product never came to pass so Rapido eventually went ahead with theirs. Given the expense of producing models for a relatively limited and demanding market, I think it's a good idea that companies have an informal understanding of what's going on with the others. Returning to the topic of GP38's, I wish they were producing a GP38-2 in CN livery. Black, regular spartan cab with red nose, noddle logo. Bonus points if it comes with snowshields like #5511 had in a photo hanging on my hobby room wall. ;-) |
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Post by nstophat on May 14, 2023 6:13:44 GMT -8
May 12, about t 10:30 a.m., EDT nstophat, which Van Halen song? (The most recent group whose repertoire I know fairly well was Creedence Clearwater Revival, and I was quite surprised to learn that its lead singer wasn't of sub-Saharan African ancestry!) "Runnin' with the Devil" |
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ictom
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Post by ictom on May 14, 2023 6:38:20 GMT -8
I swear - we're all being bamboozled by the Chinese factories and the US brokers. There's some sort of incestuous connection among all the Chinese factories. It's like they take their tooling from one building to another, add some things here, take some other things away there. I don't know anything about their operation except what I've seen in youtube videos, but it's like they do the design for a locomotive, then shop it around to the US "brokers." Modern injection molding is full of "inserts." They probably do the discriminating differences with all of those. At the very least, they shop the 3D CAD model around. I'm convinced of that. Turn off a few detail layers here and there and they save $$tons of money by having another US "broker" do a version, too. It's like the movies. Once they invest the time and labor to create the CGI for a neat monster, they shop that data set around to other movie makers. The next thing you know, you see 3 or 4 movies with the same creature or something similar.
Who are these shady "US brokers"? Names?
Do you really think the North American model development and sales are done in this order? 1) "Chinese factories" design models of North American prototypes on spec. 2) US brokers (aka middle-men) shop these designs around to various US & Canadian model companies, looking for the best deal. 3) A model company buys these Chinese designs and starts production in China. 4) Profit.
You're putting the cart before the horse.
No, you're putting the cart before the horse with my "conjecture." I never said the Chinese initiate the designs. However, to think that they don't attempt to exploit the investment in design and tooling to other mfrs who want to make something similar is naive. The Chinese have proven they have both the competitive nature and the lack of ethics to do just that. I believe the concurrency in models is more than coincidence. Can I prove it? No, but you can't prove the reverse, either. Yet, we are still left with the coincidence. P.S. I'm sorry, but thinking a mfr believes they can do a model better or that an existing model has great sales, so theirs should, too, is also naive. To introduce an identical model to a competitor and automatically and purposefully put yourself in direct conflicting competition is illogical. What you really want is something totally unique or totally superior in performance or selling appeal. Unless, there are other financial advantages in play. P.P.S. Ever notice how a few totally different US mfrs have locos that come in a hard plastic spine with two clear plastic sides, and screws through the spine to the loco fuel tank to hold it? Others have a clamshell plastic case that's totally identical to several other mfrs. Is that coincidence or something else and is that absolutely the only thing shared? |
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Post by packer on May 14, 2023 7:20:26 GMT -8
Given that the one company that made a part that I could use to make an original BN GP38 (not the ex-PC ones) is gone, I'm sorta hoping rapido does the weird step wells they had; but based on the B36-7 they probably won't (hence them doing the ex-PC ones for BN) It's comforting to believe that, but I don't think it's true in most cases. I'm convinced the Chinese shop the designs. There's just too many instances of concurrent models. If nothing else, they make strong suggestions to the brokers over here about what models to offer next and which ones would require the least in costs. Of course, there are exceptions. I don't believe working from scratch for every model is the prevailing method, however. Other than instances where it is really obvious that certain things everyone would want to make a model of, (SD40-2s, F units) how many things are out there that are made by more than one company where one of those companies isn't Scale Trains? I'm not outright saying they are out here trying to screw everyone else by making the same models as them, but it makes you wonder when it happens over and over again. Especially when Scale Trains is often the second one in. Either it's intentional, or they are completely in their own world and not talking to anyone else about what may or may not be coming out soon I mean technically, MTH got acquired by scaletrains, so they may actually make an F-unit since MTH had one. Maybe a Scaletrains C30-7 or GP38 would be better than the rapido offering? *nudge* |
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Post by marknycfan on May 14, 2023 8:02:58 GMT -8
Why even review this product that has no undecorated option when you'll stick with Atlas in the first place?
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 14, 2023 8:19:17 GMT -8
No, you're putting the cart before the horse with my "conjecture." I never said the Chinese initiate the designs. However, to think that they don't attempt to exploit the investment in design and tooling to other mfrs who want to make something similar is naive. The Chinese have proven they have both the competitive nature and the lack of ethics to do just that. I believe the concurrency in models is more than coincidence. Can I prove it? No, but you can't prove the reverse, either. Yet, we are still left with the coincidence. P.S. I'm sorry, but thinking a mfr believes they can do a model better or that an existing model has great sales, so theirs should, too, is also naive. To introduce an identical model to a competitor and automatically and purposefully put yourself in direct conflicting competition is illogical. What you really want is something totally unique or totally superior in performance or selling appeal. Unless, there are other financial advantages in play. P.P.S. Ever notice how a few totally different US mfrs have locos that come in a hard plastic spine with two clear plastic sides, and screws through the spine to the loco fuel tank to hold it? Others have a clamshell plastic case that's totally identical to several other mfrs. Is that coincidence or something else and is that absolutely the only thing shared? Work for one, or start one, or work with one, and you'll see how it works...or doesn't.
I will give you this, you're coming to a conclusion that one -who has no idea how it actually does work- could armchair. Alas, it has no basis in reality, sorry.
The packaging is based on a few things, first is the cost, then drop test, the last is once that unit arrives stateside, others see it and think "OOOO..", then approach their factory and ask "can we do this?" . That's how it works. No "conspiracies."
You logic thought on duplicates: I present to you, the F-unit (over the course of 60 years), the Dash-9, the SD40-2.. the list goes on. Are you familiar with the GSB SD40-2 story? That should sum it up - even before China started manufacturing these things.
What I will agree with you on is the lack of logic, because it isn't logical; it's human. It doesn't make sense for duplication, but, as Fishbelly has pointed out look at the Blomberg-B selection. Even from within the same manufacturer, Athearn, or Atlas, or Rapido, you have multiple variations of the exact same sideframe. Did you know there are at least two (probably three) Genesis Blomberg sideframe castings of the same truck? That's just how it goes.
As for the Blomberg, I wish we had a good Kato/Stewart M to go along with the B that mounts to that style of truck assembly. The Genesis, Rapido and Atlas offerings are lousy. Walthers and old-school Athearn seem to be it.
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Post by Baikal on May 14, 2023 8:29:53 GMT -8
Who are these shady "US brokers"? Names?
Do you really think the North American model development and sales are done in this order? 1) "Chinese factories" design models of North American prototypes on spec. 2) US brokers (aka middle-men) shop these designs around to various US & Canadian model companies, looking for the best deal. 3) A model company buys these Chinese designs and starts production in China. 4) Profit.
You're putting the cart before the horse.
No, you're putting the cart before the horse with my "conjecture." I never said the Chinese initiate the designs. However, to think that they don't attempt to exploit the investment in design and tooling to other mfrs who want to make something similar is naive. The Chinese have proven they have both the competitive nature and the lack of ethics to do just that. I believe the concurrency in models is more than coincidence. Can I prove it? No, but you can't prove the reverse, either. Yet, we are still left with the coincidence. P.S. I'm sorry, but thinking a mfr believes they can do a model better or that an existing model has great sales, so theirs should, too, is also naive. To introduce an identical model to a competitor and automatically and purposefully put yourself in direct conflicting competition is illogical. What you really want is something totally unique or totally superior in performance or selling appeal. Unless, there are other financial advantages in play. P.P.S. Ever notice how a few totally different US mfrs have locos that come in a hard plastic spine with two clear plastic sides, and screws through the spine to the loco fuel tank to hold it? Others have a clamshell plastic case that's totally identical to several other mfrs. Is that coincidence or something else and is that absolutely the only thing shared?
So I ask again, who are these US brokers? Names, company, anything? Do they have a website? Why has no one heard of these "brokers" before now? Or do they drive around the country selling Chinese-designed models out of the trunk of a '84 Olds? |
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Post by fishbelly on May 14, 2023 8:54:34 GMT -8
Why even review this product that has no undecorated option when you'll stick with Atlas in the first place? I am not reviewing it. Just making obervations. |
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Post by alcoc430 on May 15, 2023 9:49:41 GMT -8
Speaking of collusion, There was that lawsuit between MTH and Broadway Limited, which involved stolen tooling, which resulted in MTH getting the F7s and GG1s and some other toolings.
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Post by lvrr325 on May 15, 2023 19:23:48 GMT -8
Manufacturers copying each other has gone on as long as they've made models. Have discussed elsewhere here on the boards about, for example, the various clones of the original Globe F-unit shell. I wouldn't be at all shocked to find out some newer products are copied or cloned from previous existing models.
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ictom
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Post by ictom on May 16, 2023 11:06:06 GMT -8
No, you're putting the cart before the horse with my "conjecture." I never said the Chinese initiate the designs. However, to think that they don't attempt to exploit the investment in design and tooling to other mfrs who want to make something similar is naive. The Chinese have proven they have both the competitive nature and the lack of ethics to do just that. I believe the concurrency in models is more than coincidence. Can I prove it? No, but you can't prove the reverse, either. Yet, we are still left with the coincidence. P.S. I'm sorry, but thinking a mfr believes they can do a model better or that an existing model has great sales, so theirs should, too, is also naive. To introduce an identical model to a competitor and automatically and purposefully put yourself in direct conflicting competition is illogical. What you really want is something totally unique or totally superior in performance or selling appeal. Unless, there are other financial advantages in play. P.P.S. Ever notice how a few totally different US mfrs have locos that come in a hard plastic spine with two clear plastic sides, and screws through the spine to the loco fuel tank to hold it? Others have a clamshell plastic case that's totally identical to several other mfrs. Is that coincidence or something else and is that absolutely the only thing shared?
So I ask again, who are these US brokers? Names, company, anything? Do they have a website? Why has no one heard of these "brokers" before now? Or do they drive around the country selling Chinese-designed models out of the trunk of a '84 Olds? "Broker" is my derogatory metaphor for US mfrs who don't manufacture. Glad I could help you. |
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Post by cemr5396 on May 16, 2023 11:24:24 GMT -8
So I ask again, who are these US brokers? Names, company, anything? Do they have a website? Why has no one heard of these "brokers" before now? Or do they drive around the country selling Chinese-designed models out of the trunk of a '84 Olds? "Broker" is my derogatory metaphor for US mfrs who don't manufacture. Glad I could help you. so, all of them? Not sure what kind of statement you are trying to make with all this but it isn't landing. |
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Post by SOMECALLMETIM on May 16, 2023 11:35:09 GMT -8
I would say Accurail, Kadee, and to the majority extent Bowser all manufacturer. I thought Bowser designed, produced, and then shipped off to have assembled their models. So everyone else is a "broker" in your opinion? which by definition isn't the correct term. Broker would imply that control, design, manufacturing, etc. is all done by someone else and the model manufacturers are only the middle man selling to the buyers. The hobby shop/dealers would be the better definition of a broker.
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 16, 2023 14:01:15 GMT -8
Some time ago, Jason took us on a tour of the new Rapido factory in China. So it looks like Rapido can be added to the non-broker list.
Ed
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 16, 2023 14:06:39 GMT -8
Bowser manufactures most of their plastic parts here in the US. C-430 was the one exception I know of that was tooled "over there" and otherwise would not have been made at all.
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Post by Baikal on May 16, 2023 15:49:18 GMT -8
So I ask again, who are these US brokers? Names, company, anything? Do they have a website? Why has no one heard of these "brokers" before now? Or do they drive around the country selling Chinese-designed models out of the trunk of a '84 Olds? "Broker" is my derogatory metaphor for US mfrs who don't manufacture. Glad I could help you.
So broker means not a broker but a manufacturer that's not a manufacturer?
Can you provide some specific examples? I may want to buy something they aren't making.
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Post by edwardsutorik on May 16, 2023 16:23:42 GMT -8
Myself, I'm gonna avoid the temptation and will NOT be buying something they aren't making.
I know, I know: I'm missing out.
Ed
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Post by locochris on May 29, 2023 14:24:06 GMT -8
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Post by 12bridge on May 29, 2023 17:26:37 GMT -8
That Straolite looks horrible.
I do not like the fact that all of a sudden Rapido is really pushing using 3D renders supplemented by some short video clips for their products. It does NOT give an accurate depiction of "what your getting".
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Post by cera2254 on May 29, 2023 18:23:29 GMT -8
I wonder if you can get your money back if it doesn’t look exactly like the hand painted sample or the 3d render? I always worry about a repeat of the Conrail RS11s with their multi tone blue color… on a positive note, I checked out a friends set of Milwaukee E units and they looked great, I was impressed with the revised portholes.
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Post by surlyknuckle on May 30, 2023 4:19:00 GMT -8
23 seconds in...the EMD builder's plate on the truck side frame of the SOU unit.  |
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Post by cemr5396 on May 30, 2023 5:30:18 GMT -8
the sound on the unit in the video is absolute garbage too. And it's got the typical ESU problem of not being mixed properly, the horn is half the volume of the prime mover and sounds pathetic and quiet. I don't know why they seem incapable of getting that right.
My factory sound equipped Genesis 38s would blow the pants off that thing.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 30, 2023 6:17:27 GMT -8
What is up with those fans?? Yikes. The classlights on the nose look like a P2K GP38-2 nose.
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Post by Colin 't Hart on May 30, 2023 8:53:57 GMT -8
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Post by fishbelly on May 30, 2023 11:04:09 GMT -8
Of all the manufacturers, I would have to put Atlas at the top for overall everything. This is combining all aspects of bad and good. Though they may not be road specific. Atlas has the best thin paint application. Crispest lettering. Fine tuned assembly. Straight handrails. Nothing glued on. Easy disassembly without breaking anything off in the process and great running quality. Kato is second to Atlas because the paint quality is not as good.
And, Atlas still offers undecorated models with each run.
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Post by hudsonyard on May 30, 2023 14:28:35 GMT -8
Unfortunately not necessarily true anymore, I had some of the recent run of ex-branchline 50' cars across the bench to get them up to layout-standard and when I went to pop the roof off to add weight, they were glued on.
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Post by cemr5396 on May 30, 2023 15:47:08 GMT -8
Atlas DEFINITELY glues stuff on MOST of their RTR models recently
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