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Post by lars on Jun 22, 2023 9:59:39 GMT -8
Using renderings for marketing while implying (overtly or covertly) that they are photos of physical models is defacto dishonest. You seem to be cut from the same cloth as Jason Sharon.
Care to point out where they state that the renders are actual models ? Technically, the renders are from the CAD file of the model from the factory so you are looking at the actual product - pre-production & subject to change. Things can change from pre-production to final assembly. This statement reminds me of the E8 porthole windows. John is right in that things can change, and a quick look at the early renders available via a google search show the portholes to be fine, so something happened between render and final product. On other other hand it’s just another example of why Baikal, CEMR and others are at the very least wary of renders and want to see the actual product, and is certainly a case of what you see is not what you get. The portholes also brings in another point in this thread, should the manufacturer have fixed them? The tooling was designed in a way that it was a relatively easy fix and it was in fact done rather quickly. However, the fact that they were fixed for the Heartland units which followed the initial release so quickly at the very least suggests that those craptastic porthole windows were identified early on, possibly before the first run even hit the retailer’s shelves. Just following the timeline, I’m getting the feeling that pushing out the first E8 run, warts and all, was very much a conscious decision, which is not something I expect as a consumer from a company that touts themselves as being the most accurate in the industry and a (ever higher) price setter. The advice to wait to the second run of Rapido products has been good for certain products. However, I find it rather unforgivable to make the customers of a $300+ locomotive also be the beta testers. Now is letting people see the renders and believe that they’re the real deal being dishonest? One could argue no, but I will argue that letting people believe that, and not correcting them is not being 100% honest, either. I’ve committed enough lies of omission in my life to learn that lesson, and if the argument is coming down to legal-esque debates of the definition of dishonest, I think that question of are they being honest has been answered. |
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Post by cemr5396 on Jun 22, 2023 10:47:24 GMT -8
spot on, Lars.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2023 20:33:26 GMT -8
The Proto 2000 RS-27 has very high-quality handrails. They still look great after more than 10 years. What more could I want? I don't know what else to say.
UP Grey? Yes, they look good. Still. I agree. Alco Demonstrator burgundy red--not so much--they were a little bit off color then, and I've read posts elsewhere where people have complained about the dye color fading, on RS27's but also other Proto models. Some dye colors look great and some not so much. That's just a fact. I've seen Alco Demonstrator RS27's for sale where the handrails are now noticeably different in color from the body paint. If I had to have one again, it wouldn't be an issue for me, but it is an issue for some. I bought the book about the RS27's and read the entire history. It's actually a bit depressing--but Penn Central/Conrail had one RS27 that refused to die. #2407 ran and ran till the final shutdown of Alcos on Thanksgiving weekend of 1979. They couldn't kill that one. Yes, the RS27 is one of the best models ever for handrails (perhaps one of the best models period)--but I've still seen broken handrails when they are mishandled. |
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Post by hudsonyard on Jun 22, 2023 20:48:23 GMT -8
the RS27 is indeed one of the best plastic diesels ever made. i'm partial to those units, i got to see minnesota commericals ex GBW unit working many times living in minneapolis, usually on the job that worked the hennepin branch in the middle of the day.
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Post by locochris on Jun 22, 2023 21:03:03 GMT -8
the RS27 is indeed one of the best plastic diesels ever made. i'm partial to those units, i got to see minnesota commericals ex GBW unit working many times living in minneapolis, usually on the job that worked the hennepin branch in the middle of the day. I have a friend that used to work at Minnesota Commercial and he got to run their MLW RS-23. Not sure if anyone's ever made a model of that one though. |
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Post by hudsonyard on Jun 22, 2023 21:08:56 GMT -8
the RS27 is indeed one of the best plastic diesels ever made. i'm partial to those units, i got to see minnesota commericals ex GBW unit working many times living in minneapolis, usually on the job that worked the hennepin branch in the middle of the day. I have a friend that used to work at Minnesota Commercial and he got to run their MLW RS-23. Not sure if anyone's ever made a model of that one though.
Right before the pandemic began there was talk about the 23 going down for a while and the second RS-27 going back online, don't know the validity of that. The stored RS-27 was stuffed up in the MOW tracks in midway yard last time I was there, along with one of the slugs and a SW1200
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Post by lvrr325 on Jun 22, 2023 23:50:04 GMT -8
I'll tell you what delrin handrails haven't held up, are the ones Athearn was using in the yellow box Genesis era. My LHS has had a pair of CP MP15ACs for years at this point, and the handrails are light pink now. Based on other photos I've seen of those models around the internet, this isn't exclusive to just those 2 at my LHS. I left an LV RTR GP38-2 shell on a table in the basement that was in front of a picture window (basement opens to the yard in back) that gets a fair amount of sun and they turned white in a few months, from red. I can accept that Rapido will make some mistakes, I just feel the price point is too high for the mistakes, or lack of correction, to be acceptable. I did like the hybrid RS11 handrails with wire and plastic. For the short time I had a pair they seemed robust enough to stand up to typical handling. |
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Post by sd80mac on Jun 23, 2023 5:39:44 GMT -8
I have a friend that used to work at Minnesota Commercial and he got to run their MLW RS-23. Not sure if anyone's ever made a model of that one though.
Right before the pandemic began there was talk about the 23 going down for a while and the second RS-27 going back online, don't know the validity of that. The stored RS-27 was stuffed up in the MOW tracks in midway yard last time I was there, along with one of the slugs and a SW1200
When I was there about 2 weeks ago, one was in the MOW tracks with the SW1200 and the other was in the middle of the yard with the line of other dead/stored power. |
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mdq
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Post by mdq on Jun 23, 2023 7:29:48 GMT -8
Speaking of RS27. What is the difference (if any) between Walthers Proto RS27 and the original Proto RS27 ?
Walthers Proto:
Proto 2000 :
NO, there was ONLY one run ever made of RS27's. It was the very last Proto 2000 diesel tooled, so people get confused by the boxes (and because Walthers had them for quite awhile before they were sold out) and they get listed either way in online auctions. There was NO rerun. All the models available are the original item numbers. Thank you for the valuable info. |
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mdq
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Post by mdq on Jun 23, 2023 7:44:02 GMT -8
Care to point out where they state that the renders are actual models ? Technically, the renders are from the CAD file of the model from the factory so you are looking at the actual product - pre-production & subject to change. Things can change from pre-production to final assembly. This statement reminds me of the E8 porthole windows. John is right in that things can change, and a quick look at the early renders available via a google search show the portholes to be fine, so something happened between render and final product. On other other hand it’s just another example of why Baikal, CEMR and others are at the very least wary of renders and want to see the actual product, and is certainly a case of what you see is not what you get. The portholes also brings in another point in this thread, should the manufacturer have fixed them? The tooling was designed in a way that it was a relatively easy fix and it was in fact done rather quickly. However, the fact that they were fixed for the Heartland units which followed the initial release so quickly at the very least suggests that those craptastic porthole windows were identified early on, possibly before the first run even hit the retailer’s shelves. Just following the timeline, I’m getting the feeling that pushing out the first E8 run, warts and all, was very much a conscious decision, which is not something I expect as a consumer from a company that touts themselves as being the most accurate in the industry and a (ever higher) price setter. The advice to wait to the second run of Rapido products has been good for certain products. However, I find it rather unforgivable to make the customers of a $300+ locomotive also be the beta testers. Now is letting people see the renders and believe that they’re the real deal being dishonest? One could argue no, but I will argue that letting people believe that, and not correcting them is not being 100% honest, either. I’ve committed enough lies of omission in my life to learn that lesson, and if the argument is coming down to legal-esque debates of the definition of dishonest, I think that question of are they being honest has been answered. Beta testers. I never thought about it that way but that sounds right. |
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Post by cera2254 on Jun 23, 2023 8:10:23 GMT -8
I’ve always wondered if only showing samples without portholes was a decision made by Rapido, their factory, or both.
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Post by cemr5396 on Jun 23, 2023 8:49:56 GMT -8
I’ve always wondered if only showing samples without portholes was a decision made by Rapido, their factory, or both. I don't think it particulary matters, it still looks bad for them no matter which way you look at it. I know it often doesn't seem that way with Rapido but when you are the one with your name on the box, the factory works for you - not the other way around. The buck stops with Rapido. They intentionally hid something (actually, multiple things. Cannon barrel headlights, anyone?) they knew was wrong for as long as they possibly could, knowing that people would (rightly) be upset about it. As Lars pointed out earlier, the fact that the portholes had been fixed on the special run units, which were likely already on the water by the time the initial batch arrived on store shelves, is HIGHLY suspicious. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 23, 2023 9:03:00 GMT -8
I liked the Amtrak black E-8, which conveniently somewhat hides the cannon barrel headlights with its black paint, but once seen they cannot be unseen. I sold my Amtrak E-8, and the local store put the other E-8 units I had pre-ordered out for sale. I'm not obligated to pick them up (buy and sell enough other items that it wasn't an issue for them).
For me it is and has been very frustrating how they do a great job on 95% or more of a model and then the last couple items they just utterly drop the ball for the sake of either budget or time or both.
I want to try an RS-18 low nose CP unit and/or a CN M420, but given all the other issues I've personally experienced, it is difficult for me to pre-order either model. If the freight car box says Rapido on it, I no longer buy it regardless of what it is.
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Post by gevohogger on Jun 23, 2023 9:33:36 GMT -8
I liked the Amtrak black E-8, which conveniently somewhat hides the cannon barrel headlights with its black paint, but once seen they cannot be unseen. I like the black E8 also, but I can't justify buying a one-of-a-kind special locomotive which was only painted that way for a short time. Unless maybe I had childhood memories of it, or maybe found a photo of it operating in the area my layout might someday be modelled after. Too much of an oddball otherwise.
I haven't seen the "regular" Amtrak E8s yet. Do they have the obvious cannon barrel headlights also? I was hoping the black brow on the nose would help disguise them for the most part.
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Post by jonklein611 on Jun 24, 2023 8:45:05 GMT -8
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Post by onequiknova on Jun 24, 2023 10:36:25 GMT -8
I'll tell you what delrin handrails haven't held up, are the ones Athearn was using in the yellow box Genesis era. My LHS has had a pair of CP MP15ACs for years at this point, and the handrails are light pink now. Based on other photos I've seen of those models around the internet, this isn't exclusive to just those 2 at my LHS. I have a bunch of BN/SF/BNSF Athearn locomotives from the early-mid 2000's. SD70M's and MACs, GP60M's, SD40-2's etc. My interests shifted, and they spent the better part of 15 years in boxes. Now that my son is interested in BNSF, I have been slowly putting DCC/sound in them for him to run. The handrails on all of them are in bad shape. They're faded, shrunken and some of them have severely warped. Luckily I have been able to buy replacement handrails for everything so far on eBay. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2023 16:46:37 GMT -8
Hi onequiknova--
Could you please show us some pictures showing the shrinkage? Thank you.
John
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Post by onequiknova on Jun 25, 2023 18:38:25 GMT -8
Hi onequiknova-- Could you please show us some pictures showing the shrinkage? Thank you. John I have since replaced most of the handrails now, but this is an example of how most of them looked. Some had even more warpage. This is straight out of the box it was in for the last 15 years or so. I probably only ran it once or twice, but they did sit on a shelf at my Dad's house for a couple years where they were probably exposed to some UV light (and dust!)    |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2023 20:41:02 GMT -8
onequiknove--
Thank you for the pictures. Certainly the grey dye is faded too much.
The long side handrails that are leaning out--was that a result of the foam insert pushing them out over all that time and them taking on a permanent set?
I tend to think that letting items out of the box, either on display in a case (away from sunlight!) or on a layout so they can "breathe" may be a bit better than leaving them in the closet roundhouse, but that's easy for me to say when my son and I between us only have 20 diesels total to find space for on the layout or shelves.
Glad you were able to get replacement handrails from Athearn! They do not always have those items.
I'm not minimizing the defects in any way, because they are indeed annoying, especially for the investment they represent, but if my new 2023 Athearns look that good 15 or 20 years from now, after being played with all that time, I think I would be relatively happy.
I do have one brand new SD70 unit that has warping similar to that illustrated in your bottom photo. At least being body color, it doesn't show that bad on mine, so unfortunately sometimes it still happens today. It seems that having them out in the layout room that some of the warping changes or reduces a little over time. Some things actually do move around a little bit for me.
John
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Post by fr8kar on Jun 26, 2023 21:46:16 GMT -8
Hi onequiknova-- Could you please show us some pictures showing the shrinkage? Thank you. John I have since replaced most of the handrails now, but this is an example of how most of them looked. Some had even more warpage. This is straight out of the box it was in for the last 15 years or so. I probably only ran it once or twice, but they did sit on a shelf at my Dad's house for a couple years where they were probably exposed to some UV light (and dust!) I had a few of the SD75Ms that had this same problem of the side handrails being too short in length causing the stanchions to lean toward the fuel tank. The replacement handrails I bought had the same problem. I finally got rid of them in the mid 2000s. |
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Post by markfj on Jun 22, 2024 12:07:05 GMT -8
Here is the latest Rapido video showing a production sample of the GP38 in Conrail.  It’s interesting to note that the last video regarding the Rapido GP38 was posted to this thread almost exactly a year ago on June 24, 2023. Wow, it has been a long time! Mark J. |
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Post by 12bridge on Jun 22, 2024 19:02:02 GMT -8
I do not know GP38's enough to comment on the overall accuracy, but this model looks like a pretty huge improvement over some past models, especially the tread plate.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 22, 2024 19:32:10 GMT -8
I do not know GP38's enough to comment on the overall accuracy, but this model looks like a pretty huge improvement over some past models, especially the tread plate. I know enough about them to know that Rapido will never do the early BN GP38's--those being the ones I want to buy. If they were going to do them, those would have been the ones announced, instead of the "PC" ones. Ed |
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Post by loco8107 on Jun 23, 2024 9:17:32 GMT -8
Here is the latest Rapido video showing a production sample of the GP38 in Conrail. It’s interesting to note that the last video regarding the Rapido GP38 was posted to this thread almost exactly a year ago on June 24, 2023. Wow, it has been a long time! Mark J. Model really looks nice aside from the fact that all 3 fans are too tall. PC/CR primarily used the dynamic brake size fans even for cooling fans. For the $$$$ being charged and research available, no excuse to screw that up. |
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Post by packer on Jun 24, 2024 5:44:11 GMT -8
I do not know GP38's enough to comment on the overall accuracy, but this model looks like a pretty huge improvement over some past models, especially the tread plate. I know enough about them to know that Rapido will never do the early BN GP38's--those being the ones I want to buy. If they were going to do them, those would have been the ones announced, instead of the "PC" ones. Ed I recall the step well on those being different, I too would like a couple. Perhaps a lot close to the GMD style steps? |
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Post by middledivision on Jun 24, 2024 7:01:50 GMT -8
Here is the latest Rapido video showing a production sample of the GP38 in Conrail. It’s interesting to note that the last video regarding the Rapido GP38 was posted to this thread almost exactly a year ago on June 24, 2023. Wow, it has been a long time! Mark J. Model really looks nice aside from the fact that all 3 fans are too tall. PC/CR primarily used the dynamic brake size fans even for cooling fans. For the $$$$ being charged and research available, no excuse to screw that up. Athearn really dropped the ball by not doing straight 38's and 40's. They could have cornered the market, since their four axel Geeps are so nice. With Rapido, it's always something. "Close but no cigar" should be their motto. I'll wait for ST to announce 38's, since they have the frame. |
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Post by gevohogger on Jun 24, 2024 7:11:58 GMT -8
Here is the latest Rapido video showing a production sample of the GP38 in Conrail. It’s interesting to note that the last video regarding the Rapido GP38 was posted to this thread almost exactly a year ago on June 24, 2023. Wow, it has been a long time! Mark J. Model really looks nice aside from the fact that all 3 fans are too tall. PC/CR primarily used the dynamic brake size fans even for cooling fans. For the $$$$ being charged and research available, no excuse to screw that up. And these are the Cannon fans, right? |
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Post by jonklein611 on Jun 24, 2024 7:19:24 GMT -8
Model really looks nice aside from the fact that all 3 fans are too tall. PC/CR primarily used the dynamic brake size fans even for cooling fans. For the $$$$ being charged and research available, no excuse to screw that up. And these are the Cannon fans, right? No. The GP38 was too far along to catch that update. From Rapido: |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 24, 2024 7:35:25 GMT -8
I know enough about them to know that Rapido will never do the early BN GP38's--those being the ones I want to buy. If they were going to do them, those would have been the ones announced, instead of the "PC" ones. Ed I recall the step well on those being different, I too would like a couple. Perhaps a lot close to the GMD style steps? Here's a good photo of a stepwell for the GP38's that BN bought new (2072-2077): www.rrpicturearchives.net/showPicture.aspx?id=4714327Ed |
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Post by Partial_List on Jun 24, 2024 7:36:16 GMT -8
And these are the Cannon fans, right? No. The GP38 was too far along to catch that update. From Rapido: Does this affect the height of the fan housing? I’m no expert but they do look kinda tall. |
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