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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 20, 2023 19:38:47 GMT -8
John Sheridan wrote: "It appears that you could do soooo much better than any of the CRAPIDO (your words) PMs so why not put-up or shut up ? Let's see how well YOU do by taking a project from start to finish & work with a manufacturer half-way around the planet. With all of your hindsight you should have no trouble whatsoever creating a 100% dead-on accurate model!"
Wait! Doesn't Rapido own their own factory in China? That is the impression I get from all the factory tours. So isn't Rapido the manufacturer? I do not know. I am just asking. Yes. I've watched the Youtube video a couple of times, where Jason shows it to us. So Rapido is not working "with a manufacturer half-way around the planet". That's THEM. Ed |
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Post by John Sheridan on Jun 21, 2023 4:29:11 GMT -8
Understand something 1st - They might be scaled @ .040 but when they are injected & cooled they do shrink a bit if you are using ABS.
If you look at the handrails for the U25b (except for the phase IV versions) you can see they are not traditional handrail/stanchions. The stanchions are capped by a "T" that connects the handrail. So, this limits to what you can do with it. You cannot use wire for the handrails as there is no way you can thread them through the stanchions without running into huge assembly issues. If you make the caps a half circle, it will be extremely weak bond that will not survive much handling.
Material limitations with making the handrails/stanchions to scale -
If you make it to scale in ABS plastic, the handrails will warp & bend.
If you make it in Polystyrene, they will be extremely fragile.
The handrails tend to suffer the most when you pick the model up as we all know. Athearn used polystyrene on their handrails for a time & they were easily damaged. OTOH, how many times have you opened the box & the first thing you notice is the handrails are all wavy ? That's ABS that is flexing around due to the nature of the material being too thin.
If you make them a tad oversized it solves the bending problem & you can use ABS which makes the handrails survive your thick meaty hands when handling them. It is a compromise that is used so you don't accidently destroy your very expensive model.
Until they come up with a material that solves both of the above problems & is economically feasible, they will never be to scale.
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Post by John Sheridan on Jun 21, 2023 4:33:13 GMT -8
John Sheridan wrote: "It appears that you could do soooo much better than any of the CRAPIDO (your words) PMs so why not put-up or shut up ? Let's see how well YOU do by taking a project from start to finish & work with a manufacturer half-way around the planet. With all of your hindsight you should have no trouble whatsoever creating a 100% dead-on accurate model!"
Wait! Doesn't Rapido own their own factory in China? That is the impression I get from all the factory tours. So isn't Rapido the manufacturer? I do not know. I am just asking. Yes. I've watched the Youtube video a couple of times, where Jason shows it to us. So Rapido is not working "with a manufacturer half-way around the planet". That's THEM. Ed Once again Ed, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. But that's never stopped you. |
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Post by fishbelly on Jun 21, 2023 4:35:47 GMT -8
I am totally on Rapido's side in respect to slightly oversizing the handrails. Straight handrails slightly oversized and vertical stanchions are far better looking than scale wavy handrails and leaning stanchions.
I like it Rapido and if that works on the U25B. Great!
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Post by John Sheridan on Jun 21, 2023 4:48:05 GMT -8
Saved that one for sure, good catch. Sigh, i guess when they come out we can see how they stack up. At least Matt Gentry is doing these. I saw the pre-production sample ATSF GP38 @ NERPM last weekend. As usual, Matt did an excellent job on them. I wish I took pics of them! |
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mdq
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Post by mdq on Jun 21, 2023 5:38:41 GMT -8
When the subject of rapido comes up, the point where name calling, insults, offensive remarks and vulgarity is reach happens very quickly.
This thread took a nose dive and I am sorry I read most of it.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 21, 2023 6:01:46 GMT -8
Yes. I've watched the Youtube video a couple of times, where Jason shows it to us. So Rapido is not working "with a manufacturer half-way around the planet". That's THEM. Ed Once again Ed, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. But that's never stopped you. Wow. You're quite a jerk, what with your flinging of personal insults. Notice, everyone, that our pal John uses that to deflect from actually discussing/answering the question. I'll bet he uses that trick a lot in his daily life. Perhaps he's so full of himself that he doesn't feel the need to respond to an honest question. For those of you who've missed it: "Hey, Jason Schron from Rapido Trains, Inc. I am at our new factory." Towards the end of the video, Jason says: "We're really excited here that we've actually started our own second new Rapido factory." Ed |
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Post by kentuckysouthernrwy on Jun 21, 2023 6:58:33 GMT -8
Damn, this childish back and forth is tiring.....-OFF-
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Post by schroed2 on Jun 21, 2023 7:07:35 GMT -8
When the subject of rapido comes up, the point where name calling, insults, offensive remarks and vulgarity is reach happens very quickly. This thread took a nose dive and I am sorry I read most of it. it helps if you block enough of the usual suspects |
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 21, 2023 7:34:14 GMT -8
Damn, this childish back and forth is tiring.....-OFF- I expect Karl has thicker armor than I do about personal insult. On the other hand, I believe I responded to fishbelly's question yesterday about Rapido owning their own factory. I hope Karl wasn't objecting to THAT back and forthing. Ed |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 7:50:55 GMT -8
Trying to stay out of the name calling, John's post above regarding material issues with manufacturing decent looking handrails was very informative--and also another good explanation of why no HO scale "model" can be 100% dead on perfect (though so many argued that with me). There are compromises that have to be made just to make things look decent and not all wavy or too fragile.
Just because some model may look "perfect" to a buyer's eyes does not mean that it actually is. There are always hidden compromises that fool the eye. The art of modelmaking is hiding the compromises so that people don't catch them and whine.
I could name specific modern HO models that have compromises like only one cab when more than one was actually used in real life, that folks have missed on these very forums, but if I did that people would get all ticked off at a manufacturer just like with the Rapido SCL step wells. If folks want to go deluding themselves about some models being truly perfect, why should I stop them?
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Post by Baikal on Jun 21, 2023 7:54:57 GMT -8
Understand something 1st - They might be scaled @ .040 but when they are injected & cooled they do shrink a bit if you are using ABS. If you look at the handrails for the U25b (except for the phase IV versions) you can see they are not traditional handrail/stanchions. The stanchions are capped by a "T" that connects the handrail. So, this limits to what you can do with it. You cannot use wire for the handrails as there is no way you can thread them through the stanchions without running into huge assembly issues. If you make the caps a half circle, it will be extremely weak bond that will not survive much handling. Material limitations with making the handrails/stanchions to scale - If you make it to scale in ABS plastic, the handrails will warp & bend. If you make it in Polystyrene, they will be extremely fragile. The handrails tend to suffer the most when you pick the model up as we all know. Athearn used polystyrene on their handrails for a time & they were easily damaged. OTOH, how many times have you opened the box & the first thing you notice is the handrails are all wavy ? That's ABS that is flexing around due to the nature of the material being too thin. If you make them a tad oversized it solves the bending problem & you can use ABS which makes the handrails survive your thick meaty hands when handling them. It is a compromise that is used so you don't accidently destroy your very expensive model. Until they come up with a material that solves both of the above problems & is economically feasible, they will never be to scale.
I think this explains it better:
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Post by riogrande on Jun 21, 2023 8:00:05 GMT -8
But it was Jake showing his eyes to her that melted her heart and made her forget. The video ends before that part.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 21, 2023 8:04:09 GMT -8
I am totally on Rapido's side in respect to slightly oversizing the handrails. Straight handrails slightly oversized and vertical stanchions are far better looking than scale wavy handrails and leaning stanchions. I like it Rapido and if that works on the U25B. Great!
Rapido U25B handrails are about 3.5". The prototype is 1.25"
3.5/1.25 = 2.8 times as large. So that's as good as Rapido can will do (See Pawn Stars)
Check out an old Proto 2000 RS-27. Truly sightly oversized. And they were done how long ago? Mine are still straight enough after 10+ years.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 21, 2023 8:06:26 GMT -8
Once again Ed, you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. But that's never stopped you. Wow. You're quite a jerk, what with your flinging of personal insults. Notice, everyone, that our pal John uses that to deflect from actually discussing/answering the question. I'll bet he uses that trick a lot in his daily life. Perhaps he's so full of himself that he doesn't feel the need to respond to an honest question. For those of you who've missed it: "Hey, Jason Schron from Rapido Trains, Inc. I am at our new factory." Towards the end of the video, Jason says: "We're really excited here that we've actually started our own second new Rapido factory." Ed
When you present facts, you upset people.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2023 8:08:56 GMT -8
Those old RS27 handrails were delrin and best executed on that diesel, I agree. Even still, many people complained about the dyed delrin color of those same RS27 handrails either not fully matching the loco paint when brand new, and/or fading after many years. As good as those handrails actually looked, people still complained about them. You cannot adequately paint delrin and have the paint stay on the handrails without a prime coat, and then the paint film appearance becomes "too thick" for most modelers eyes (just go read some of the posts complaining about Stewart handrails on U25B's and C628/C630 models from many years ago). So some manufacturers dyed the delrin handrails instead--with varying results depending upon the model and paint scheme--then people complained about the dye color.
Many other models had issues with the delrin handrails similar to what I just said above. People complained very loudly and very often to the manufacturers about the delrin--so they changed away from Delrin to ABS and Celcon instead. The model companies actually are very responsive especially when many people complain about the very same thing.
They will not be going back to delrin anytime soon. That ship has sailed. The Celcon and ABS can be glued and can be painted without priming; that is not the case with Delrin. The Celcon and ABS handrails generally speaking, with adequate set time prior to ejection from the mold, will stay in their holes better than delrin and will stand up more vertically than some of the delrin handrails.
Also the RS27 has very short length maximum handrail runs. When you start building SD70 or longer series diesels, any issues with handrails whatsoever become magnified due to the length of the individual handrail runs.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 21, 2023 8:16:04 GMT -8
But it was Jake showing his eyes to her that melted her heart and made her forget. The video ends before that part.
That was filed inside a Chicago Tunnel Company tunnel.
A facinating rail operation. You can find paperback copies of the book "The Chicago tunnel story: Exploring the railroad "forty feet below" (Bulletin 135 of the Central Electric Railfans' Association)" for less than $10. Highly recommended.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 21, 2023 8:25:34 GMT -8
Those old RS27 handrails were delrin and best executed on that diesel, I agree. Even still, many people complained about the dyed delrin color of those same RS27 handrails either not fully matching the loco paint when brand new, and/or fading after many years. As good as those handrails actually looked, people still complained about them. You cannot adequately paint delrin and have the paint stay on the handrails without a prime coat, and then the paint film appearance becomes "too thick" for most modelers eyes (just go read some of the posts complaining about Stewart handrails on U25B's and C628/C630 models from many years ago). So some manufacturers dyed the delrin handrails instead--with varying results depending upon the model and paint scheme--then people complained about the dye color. Many other models had issues with the delrin handrails similar to what I just said above. People complained very loudly and very often to the manufacturers about the delrin--so they changed away from Delrin to ABS and Celcon instead. The model companies actually are very responsive especially when many people complain about the very same thing. They will not be going back to delrin anytime soon. That ship has sailed. The Celcon and ABS can be glued and can be painted without priming; that is not the case with Delrin.
LOL you're actually trying to diss the P2K RS-27 handrails, one of the best execution of HO scale handrails ever. My UP gray railings match the body color fine. No painting necessary.
"As good as those handrails actually looked, people still complained about them" Uh, yeah I can see that. Because Rapido.
Bowser's older handrails were unacceptably fat so it's not just a Rapido problem (But humble Bowser did not boast). And the Rapido shell is a vast improvement over the old Stewart/Bowser version. We'll see how good they run.
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Post by edwardsutorik on Jun 21, 2023 8:40:38 GMT -8
When Overland came out with the T55 GE's, I e-mailed Brian that I thought the stanchions were too fat (they used plastic stanchions and wire handrails). I suggested using ones made of beryllium copper, as I thought they could be made much thinner, but still be adequately sturdy.
Didn't happen. He said it would cost too much.
I suggest the concept again, here, for those who want (near) scale appearance--nice straight handrails, and nice (vertically) straight stanchions. All close to scale.
I believe I've seen some stanchions that you make up from photoetching. And I believe they've been "accused" of being slightly too small. Oh, well. Maybe the paint fattens them up.
Of course, there's no way anyone would pay the price for having THOSE done by folks in a factory--YIKES, the labor cost involved.
Still,........
Ed
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Post by John Sheridan on Jun 21, 2023 9:19:50 GMT -8
FYI,
I went back & looked at my notes for the U25b. I originally stated that the handrails were .040 in diameter.
I made a mistake!
They are actually .020 in diameter. That's what I get for not looking at my notes first before quoting.
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Post by fishbelly on Jun 21, 2023 9:29:44 GMT -8
FYI, I went back & looked at my notes for the U25b. I originally stated that the handrails were .040 in diameter. I made a mistake! They are actually .020 in diameter. That's what I get for not looking at my notes first before quoting. That is excellent. They will match pretty much the Kato GP35. I like that. My Atlas GP7's, Kato GP35's and now the Rapido U25B will all have uniform looking handrails. Very cool. |
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mdq
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Post by mdq on Jun 21, 2023 11:38:52 GMT -8
Those old RS27 handrails were delrin and best executed on that diesel, I agree. Even still, many people complained about the dyed delrin color of those same RS27 handrails either not fully matching the loco paint when brand new, and/or fading after many years. As good as those handrails actually looked, people still complained about them. You cannot adequately paint delrin and have the paint stay on the handrails without a prime coat, and then the paint film appearance becomes "too thick" for most modelers eyes (just go read some of the posts complaining about Stewart handrails on U25B's and C628/C630 models from many years ago). So some manufacturers dyed the delrin handrails instead--with varying results depending upon the model and paint scheme--then people complained about the dye color. Many other models had issues with the delrin handrails similar to what I just said above. People complained very loudly and very often to the manufacturers about the delrin--so they changed away from Delrin to ABS and Celcon instead. The model companies actually are very responsive especially when many people complain about the very same thing. They will not be going back to delrin anytime soon. That ship has sailed. The Celcon and ABS can be glued and can be painted without priming; that is not the case with Delrin. The Celcon and ABS handrails generally speaking, with adequate set time prior to ejection from the mold, will stay in their holes better than delrin and will stand up more vertically than some of the delrin handrails. Also the RS27 has very short length maximum handrail runs. When you start building SD70 or longer series diesels, any issues with handrails whatsoever become magnified due to the length of the individual handrail runs.
Speaking of RS27. What is the difference (if any) between Walthers Proto RS27 and the original Proto RS27 ?
Walthers Proto:
Proto 2000 :
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Post by edgecrusher on Jun 21, 2023 11:55:14 GMT -8
But it was Jake showing his eyes to her that melted her heart and made her forget. The video ends before that part.
That was filed inside a Chicago Tunnel Company tunnel.
A facinating rail operation. You can find paperback copies of the book "The Chicago tunnel story: Exploring the railroad "forty feet below" (Bulletin 135 of the Central Electric Railfans' Association)" for less than $10. Highly recommended.
I'll second that on the book, I just read that one earlier this year. I scored a hardcover copy for $13 bucks. Its a good read. |
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Post by wagnersteve on Jun 21, 2023 12:11:45 GMT -8
June 21, about 4:09 p.m.
Train World is sponsoring a discussion of the Rapido Trains HO GP38's starting at 6 p.m. EDT this evening, on their YouTube channel and another online venue I can't easily access. Participants include Tony Cook of White River Productions and someone from the supplier itself, I believe.
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Post by cemr5396 on Jun 21, 2023 12:43:48 GMT -8
sorry, I have way better things to do with my time than listen to a bunch of yes-men pat themselves on the back and go on about how great they are when in reality the models are mediocre at best.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2023 8:42:13 GMT -8
Those old RS27 handrails were delrin and best executed on that diesel, I agree. Even still, many people complained about the dyed delrin color of those same RS27 handrails either not fully matching the loco paint when brand new, and/or fading after many years. As good as those handrails actually looked, people still complained about them. You cannot adequately paint delrin and have the paint stay on the handrails without a prime coat, and then the paint film appearance becomes "too thick" for most modelers eyes (just go read some of the posts complaining about Stewart handrails on U25B's and C628/C630 models from many years ago). So some manufacturers dyed the delrin handrails instead--with varying results depending upon the model and paint scheme--then people complained about the dye color. Many other models had issues with the delrin handrails similar to what I just said above. People complained very loudly and very often to the manufacturers about the delrin--so they changed away from Delrin to ABS and Celcon instead. The model companies actually are very responsive especially when many people complain about the very same thing. They will not be going back to delrin anytime soon. That ship has sailed. The Celcon and ABS can be glued and can be painted without priming; that is not the case with Delrin. The Celcon and ABS handrails generally speaking, with adequate set time prior to ejection from the mold, will stay in their holes better than delrin and will stand up more vertically than some of the delrin handrails. Also the RS27 has very short length maximum handrail runs. When you start building SD70 or longer series diesels, any issues with handrails whatsoever become magnified due to the length of the individual handrail runs.
Speaking of RS27. What is the difference (if any) between Walthers Proto RS27 and the original Proto RS27 ?
Walthers Proto:
Proto 2000 :
NO, there was ONLY one run ever made of RS27's. It was the very last Proto 2000 diesel tooled, so people get confused by the boxes (and because Walthers had them for quite awhile before they were sold out) and they get listed either way in online auctions. There was NO rerun. All the models available are the original item numbers. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2023 8:55:15 GMT -8
Those old RS27 handrails were delrin and best executed on that diesel, I agree. Even still, many people complained about the dyed delrin color of those same RS27 handrails either not fully matching the loco paint when brand new, and/or fading after many years. As good as those handrails actually looked, people still complained about them. You cannot adequately paint delrin and have the paint stay on the handrails without a prime coat, and then the paint film appearance becomes "too thick" for most modelers eyes (just go read some of the posts complaining about Stewart handrails on U25B's and C628/C630 models from many years ago). So some manufacturers dyed the delrin handrails instead--with varying results depending upon the model and paint scheme--then people complained about the dye color. Many other models had issues with the delrin handrails similar to what I just said above. People complained very loudly and very often to the manufacturers about the delrin--so they changed away from Delrin to ABS and Celcon instead. The model companies actually are very responsive especially when many people complain about the very same thing. They will not be going back to delrin anytime soon. That ship has sailed. The Celcon and ABS can be glued and can be painted without priming; that is not the case with Delrin.
LOL you're actually trying to diss the P2K RS-27 handrails, one of the best execution of HO scale handrails ever. My UP gray railings match the body color fine. No painting necessary.
"As good as those handrails actually looked, people still complained about them" Uh, yeah I can see that. Because Rapido.
Bowser's older handrails were unacceptably fat so it's not just a Rapido problem (But humble Bowser did not boast). And the Rapido shell is a vast improvement over the old Stewart/Bowser version. We'll see how good they run.
For once, why don't you try actually reading what I say completely and comprehending it before you spout off? I was sticking to the facts. There have been many complaints to manufacturers about the delrin handrails. That is a fact--and they weren't complaints just about thickness but a myriad of other issues--including too soft, too wavy, not staying in holes, etc. People complained about the handrails 20 years ago, and people still complain today. The delrin handrails were ALSO a problem for Atlas and Atlas/Kato engines. Sometimes it is due to spending forever (many years now for sure) sitting in the box, such that they may acquire permanent deformation if not placed in the box just right, but many of them also have or had wavy handrails even back in the day. It was definitely not a problem with just merely Stewart-tooled handrails but happened to pretty much everybody's handrails that time. This also includes Proto 2000 locos. People complained about the dyed handrails not matching body paint colors--in fact now see the post down below this one. Also, some manufacturers have personally told me that their handrails factually were the correct size (or practically so), but that it was the paint film thickness that made them look so bad. I didn't go out and measure the thickness of handrails in that era, and I don't measure that now. It is funny to me that today's Gevo's have hugely thick stanchions that makes modeling them easier for the manufacturers--heck even MTH's novel snap in place handrails on plastic stanchions look generally acceptable for today's most modern diesels. If you put an MTH SD70ACe up next to the latest Genesis SD70ACe there may be some things one doesn't like about the MTH version, but the handrails might not be the first thing that come to mind. They look ok enough. |
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Post by sd80mac on Jun 22, 2023 8:57:51 GMT -8
I'll tell you what delrin handrails haven't held up, are the ones Athearn was using in the yellow box Genesis era. My LHS has had a pair of CP MP15ACs for years at this point, and the handrails are light pink now. Based on other photos I've seen of those models around the internet, this isn't exclusive to just those 2 at my LHS.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2023 9:07:36 GMT -8
That's correct--those are the complaints I've been referring to.
I do not know if the dyes being used today to dye some handrails are any better. These are basically toys, and nothing lasts forever especially when mass produced as toys in a far-eastern factory. I would be willing to bet that todays Genesis and ScaleTrains locos may experience fading of handrails over time--many people weather stuff anyway?
Anybody that wants models to last forever should not be on this thread but should be out saving up their cash and buying the latest Boo Rim models from South Korea. Don't lick the paint because it is still very likely lead paint--that's why their factory paint lasts despite handling. Expect to pay well north of $1000 per loco and expect very limited selection, as very few are imported any more (in fact most other brass builders are just gone from existence).
I am by no measure an Rapido fan boy. However, that said, I do not care if their handrails are 3 times too large in diameter if they can get them to be straight. I also want to be able to handle models without breaking stuff like handrails--that is definitely part of the reason they are designing them a little bit fat. That is a compromise I can live with for durability.
Imo there are larger issues than merely handrails with Rapido models: paint colors that sometimes are way off not even close, and use of no primer such that different color plastic parts cause the paints that are used to vary in appearance. Even if the paint is right, not using a primer is going to cause color issues with the finished models.
I don't care if any manufacturer makes the handrails slightly fatter if that will result in them being straight and more durable. Please please find something else to pick on.
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Post by Baikal on Jun 22, 2023 9:37:54 GMT -8
LOL you're actually trying to diss the P2K RS-27 handrails, one of the best execution of HO scale handrails ever. My UP gray railings match the body color fine. No painting necessary.
"As good as those handrails actually looked, people still complained about them" Uh, yeah I can see that. Because Rapido.
Bowser's older handrails were unacceptably fat so it's not just a Rapido problem (But humble Bowser did not boast). And the Rapido shell is a vast improvement over the old Stewart/Bowser version. We'll see how good they run.
For once, why don't you try actually reading what I say completely and comprehending it before you spout off? I was sticking to the facts. There have been many complaints to manufacturers about the delrin handrails. That is a fact--and they weren't complaints just about thickness but a myriad of other issues--including too soft, too wavy, not staying in holes, etc. People complained about the handrails 20 years ago, and people still complain today. The delrin handrails were ALSO a problem for Atlas and Atlas/Kato engines. Sometimes it is due to spending forever (many years now for sure) sitting in the box, such that they may acquire permanent deformation if not placed in the box just right, but many of them also have or had wavy handrails even back in the day. It was definitely not a problem with just merely Stewart-tooled handrails but happened to pretty much everybody's handrails that time. This also includes Proto 2000 locos. People complained about the dyed handrails not matching body paint colors--in fact now see the post down below this one. Also, some manufacturers have personally told me that their handrails factually were the correct size (or practically so), but that it was the paint film thickness that made them look so bad. I didn't go out and measure the thickness of handrails in that era, and I don't measure that now. It is funny to me that today's Gevo's have hugely thick stanchions that makes modeling them easier for the manufacturers--heck even MTH's novel snap in place handrails on plastic stanchions look generally acceptable for today's most modern diesels. If you put an MTH SD70ACe up next to the latest Genesis SD70ACe there may be some things one doesn't like about the MTH version, but the handrails might not be the first thing that come to mind. They look ok enough.
The Proto 2000 RS-27 has very high-quality handrails. They still look great after more than 10 years. What more could I want? I don't know what else to say.
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